My thoughts on the Lahore attacks

[roadrunner]

There's a lot of threads about this.

I'd like to clarify some things.

There's a lot of discussion about Pakistan being under attack from all sides, by the Taliban in the West, and possibly RAW from the East.

To clarify the position on this. The Taliban in the West are a threat to Pakistan. Radical Islam is a threat to Pakistan. But let's not broadly categorize everything. There's a point of view, with evidence, that India uses these Jihadis to create havoc in Pakistan.

A lot of articles being quoted by the Indians pay special attention to these Jihadis, and suggest if they're Jihadi, they can have no link with RAW. This is patently false.

Many of the Jihadi groups in Kashmir, these are Muslims that kill civilians through bombings and assasination, are sponsored by the Indian Army. They are Muslims, but work for Hindus basically. Their aim is to carry out extra judicial murder. The "Taliban" Jihadi group is one such Indian sponsored group in Kashmir.

It has recently been shown that many of the Swat Jihadis are sponsored by RAW. They are funded from the Indian consulates in Afghanistan. This is the link between Pakistani Muslims and RAW. The Muslims are being used by RAW because they shelter grievances about something or other, or with the naive promise of the leadership of a caliphate should they carry out their dirty work. This has a history. Radical Islam is naive, the Ottomans were defeated not by the superiority of the Western powers, but by the naivity of the radical Muslims who revolted against Muslim rule that wasn't "Islamic" enough.

So, to summarize. Just because these guys are Muslim and perhaps even Pakistani, does not mean they are not linked with RAW. It's this hidden link that is more important. India's hands are all over Pakistan and Kashmir. They use proxies to carry out their work.

 

[muse]

RR


Excellent post. Lets see if we understand correctly islamists are a problem - not only the variety who serve Arabs, but now we also have a variety that serves the Indian -- is that basically right?

So, net the islamist is a problem #1 for Pakistan - regardless of whom the master, the islamist must be eliminated, after all, we seek to eliminate pakistan's number # 1 problem, isn't that so?

Thank you for a super post.

 

[roadrunner]

So, net the islamist is a problem #1 for Pakistan - regardless of whom the master, the islamist must be eliminated, after all, we seek to eliminate pakistan's number # 1 problem, isn't that so?

Not elimination. And placing everyone into an "Islamist and us" category is oversimplifying the situation.

There are groups of people in Pakistan that are disaffected. There are groups of Taliban "Islamists" who hate India in fact with a passion.

However there are pockets of Muslims, radical Muslims, in Pakistan who will support India in the hopes of fulfilling some naive goals. These are the same Muslims that carry out extra-judicial killings in Kashmir, that might be responsible for Swat violence, and might be responsible for the Sri Lankan attacks.

The motivation for becoming a Taliban is not monolithic. It's very diverse.

The elimination, or just re-education of some, but not all of the Taliban Muslims in Pakistan is needed. With others, all that is needed is to provide them a secure environment so that their police are not overrun by radicals and bandits every now and then, and they'll side with whoever can give them these assurances. Might is right. Some people are forced to join with the flow, some just see it as an improvement to their daily lives.

So no to this broad generalization that all Islamists are bad in Pakistan, but yes that those that seek to establish some sort of Caliphate by overthrowing the Pakistani government or hurting Pakistan's image, driving away billions in investment through attacking Sri Lankan cricketers, those Taliban need to be subdued. The target has to be achieved without alienating others in the population. It requires tact, it requires homework to be done before any strike, and remember that it is only a proportion of "radical Islam", perhaps a very small minority that are causing this trouble in Pakistan.

 

[osamaziadxb]

There's a lot of threads about this.

I'd like to clarify some things.

There's a lot of discussion about Pakistan being under attack from all sides, by the Taliban in the West, and possibly RAW from the East.

To clarify the position on this. The Taliban in the West are a threat to Pakistan. Radical Islam is a threat to Pakistan. But let's not broadly categorize everything. There's a point of view, with evidence, that India uses these Jihadis to create havoc in Pakistan.

A lot of articles being quoted by the Indians pay special attention to these Jihadis, and suggest if they're Jihadi, they can have no link with RAW. This is patently false.

Many of the Jihadi groups in Kashmir, these are Muslims that kill civilians through bombings and assasination, are sponsored by the Indian Army. They are Muslims, but work for Hindus basically. Their aim is to carry out extra judicial murder. The "Taliban" Jihadi group is one such Indian sponsored group in Kashmir.

It has recently been shown that many of the Swat Jihadis are sponsored by RAW. They are funded from the Indian consulates in Afghanistan. This is the link between Pakistani Muslims and RAW. The Muslims are being used by RAW because they shelter grievances about something or other, or with the naive promise of the leadership of a caliphate should they carry out their dirty work. This has a history. Radical Islam is naive, the Ottomans were defeated not by the superiority of the Western powers, but by the naivity of the radical Muslims who revolted against Muslim rule that wasn't "Islamic" enough.

So, to summarize. Just because these guys are Muslim and perhaps even Pakistani, does not mean they are not linked with RAW. It's this hidden link that is more important. India's hands are all over Pakistan and Kashmir. They use proxies to carry out their work.

thankx a lot Bro...U have really done what i want

 

[muse]

Sir

"hating" with a passion is nothing to be proud of, nor anything I should want any pakistani to be associated with.

Indian are a adversary, not an enemy. Indian want a pakistan that is not a threat to their hegemony.

Islamist want no Pakistan at all!!!!!!!!!! Am I getting through to you? What about that do you not understand?

You suggest that we not use the general "islamist" term?? You prefer that we differentiate and in doing so, allow confusion to run rampant -- And this would be in the greater interests of pakistanis?? Sir, I encourage you to think.

Cutting off one's nose to spite the ... -- please think.

those Taliban need to be subdued

Indeed, all criminals are not just criminals, they have a variety of reasons for being criminals --- Does any of that change the fact that they are criminals???

The law exercises itself on criminals, regardless of their motivation - a crime is a crime!!

There are no good criminals.

Here's the deal, If those who are today Talib refuse to burn, sever heads, tolderate the belief and lifestyles of others -- will they still be talib?? Indeed not - you are providing an "out" for these islamists -- and you will be among the first they would target, your weakness is that you would tolerate the intolerant, defending their right to this or that, even as they prepare to slaughter you.

Lets not let that happen to anymore Pakistanis or anybody else. It is not we who must differentiate between good or bad talib -- they cannot be reasoned with and OUGHT not be reasoned with.

Listen, if someone wants to adhere to some fashion sense and imagine that God is deeply interested in fashion sense, that is their own business - but when these would impose their sense on the rest of us - then it's on, brother.

Just remember, they challenege the state's exclusive right to coersion - and now law will be made to their understanding of conscience, read certitude - what next will you be protecting their right to do to us??

 

[Patriot]

100% Agreed!

 

[Super Falcon]

im very much sure they were indian spy a very big evidence itslef is if they were jihadis they will wear sucide jacket and kill themslfes

 

[Jihad]

Excellent post RR, you are a valuable asset to our forum and our country, and a true think-tank.
I can say that your post is an eye-opener for alot of people, thank you for sharing.

 

[muse]

DAWN newspaper is a Indian zionist conspiracy -- ???

Pakistani militants seen most likely behind attack


Saturday, 07 Mar, 2009 | 12:57 PM PST | A government official said groups such as the LeJ were highest on the list of suspects.—AFP ISLAMABAD: An investigation into the attack on Sri Lanka’s cricket team in Lahore has found signs that Pakistani militants with possible ties to al Qaeda were responsible, a senior government official said on Saturday.

‘The indications are that it was one of our own homegrown groups, with possible linkages abroad,’ said the government official with knowledge of the investigation.

Police have rounded up scores of suspects but have yet to announce a breakthrough in their investigation of Tuesday’s attack.

‘It’s a tough job. We’re connecting the dots. We’re making every effort to get to the bottom and hopefully we’ll do it,’ said Salahuddin Niazi, the policeman heading the investigation.

‘Any word before finalising the investigation will benefit the criminals. Let’s finalise it, then we’ll be able to point the finger at someone or a group or groups,’ he said.

A local newspaper, citing a former high-ranking intelligence official in Punjab, said al Qaeda-linked Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ) militants were responsible for the attack.

Speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject, the government official said groups such as the LeJ were highest on the list of suspects.

Some of the explosives carried by the assailants were not available in Pakistan, he said.

The official was dismissive of media speculation that India may have been behind the attack as payback for the assault by militants on Mumbai in November.

things that make ya go "hmm" -- nah, it's a conspiracy, FBI, CIA, R &AW, Mossad, Martians -- no muslim could do this -- hain ji??

 

[Bane Blade]

Although we find it logical and obvious that it is the RAW that is to be blamed for all this damage to our rep why doesn't the international media show our side of the picure all I hear in the BBC is that it was someone from the tribal areas I wonder why we can't have our own voice or atleast convey our point of view.

 

[muse]

KB


Ask the islamist - why ask Pakistanis that? Ask the islamist, brother

We are just muslims, not islamists - we muslims go by Faith in God, not certitude in terrorism as the islamist does -- So, just like you I'm sure other will want to hear from the apologist of Islamists why they behead people in the name of what they say is islam, why they burn and bomb schools in the name of what they say is Islam, why they they demean the arts and artists in the name of what they say is islam, why it is that they will Pakistani secuiry personnel in the name of what they say is islam.

I am sure all would want to hear why the islamist wants to make war on Muslims and any other who does not share their ideology

 

[Torpedo]

@ RR

I must thank you because you used the word 'possibly' before RAW in your first post.

Anyway, I still find your view somewhat biased.

Most of the times, the obvious reason is the correct one. But by over stretching the facts we can reach to any conclusion. I think this case is a good example of that.

Let's assume that all you said is correct. But, even this can carry you only to the half of the distance. You are nowhere near of proving RAW did 3/3. Only RAW being capable of doing this is not enough.

At this point, proofs are more important than common sense. Blaming based on pure guessing can make the matter worse.

There is no chance that India will accept anything (internally, if not openly) unless there is any proof. By saying India, I mean Indian people. Without any acceptance, this blaming will only increase anger.

Talking of Pakistani people, there is lot of anger but no self-confidence in their talking. Some proofs can do miracle for their moral.

So, your first aim should be to pressurize GoP to make investigation transparent and compact. There should be coherence in the official stand. Also, Pakistani people should try to boost the moral of Police force. They lost their best men and still they are the main target of blame. Also the feeling that 'their lives have no value' can be disastrous.

So, I do feel that, you might have got a right target; but your approach is certainly wrong.

Thank you and regards.

 

[roadrunner]

Sir

"hating" with a passion is nothing to be proud of, nor anything I should want any pakistani to be associated with.

Indian are a adversary, not an enemy. Indian want a pakistan that is not a threat to their hegemony.

Islamist want no Pakistan at all!!!!!!!!!! Am I getting through to you? What about that do you not understand?

You suggest that we not use the general "islamist" term?? You prefer that we differentiate and in doing so, allow confusion to run rampant -- And this would be in the greater interests of pakistanis?? Sir, I encourage you to think.

Cutting off one's nose to spite the ... -- please think.

I suggest you're the one that needs to think.

You're comments are not well thought out. You say on the one hand, "Islamist want no Pakistan at all". This is blatantly false. The MMA are tthe example that comes to mind. If these Islamists were anti-Pakistan, they would not be represented in an election capacity.

My comment on the hating India part was not as some source of pride. It is an acknowledgement of the reality.

Indeed, all criminals are not just criminals, they have a variety of reasons for being criminals --- Does any of that change the fact that they are criminals???

The law exercises itself on criminals, regardless of their motivation - a crime is a crime!!

There are no good criminals.

Here's the deal, If those who are today Talib refuse to burn, sever heads, tolderate the belief and lifestyles of others -- will they still be talib?? Indeed not - you are providing an "out" for these islamists -- and you will be among the first they would target, your weakness is that you would tolerate the intolerant, defending their right to this or that, even as they prepare to slaughter you.

Lets not let that happen to anymore Pakistanis or anybody else. It is not we who must differentiate between good or bad talib -- they cannot be reasoned with and OUGHT not be reasoned with.

Listen, if someone wants to adhere to some fashion sense and imagine that God is deeply interested in fashion sense, that is their own business - but when these would impose their sense on the rest of us - then it's on, brother.

Just remember, they challenege the state's exclusive right to coersion - and now law will be made to their understanding of conscience, read certitude - what next will you be protecting their right to do to us??

A person who breaks the law is a criminal.

A person who has been failed by the law, and then breaks it in order to achieve law and order, is simply working in their own best interest. You look in the US of A. They had the "Guardian Angels". Even were a relatively popular group trying to provide security to the crime ridden areas of New York. That's probably part of what is happening some small areas of Pakistan.

The example I gave was that the federal police force in Swat being incompetent and unable to provide protection to the people of the region.

I'll give you another example. A US drone strike blows up a house where the locals believe only innocent people inhabited. They worry their own houses are next. Even the enemy of my enemy then becomes a friend, and people are inclined to side with someone who will protect them from being blown to oblivion.

These are examples of people being pushed towards the "Taliban" when they are not a part of that ideology.

The solution is to be much more careful in targeted assasinations. That is not happening currently.

 

[roadrunner]

things that make ya go "hmm" -- nah, it's a conspiracy, FBI, CIA, R &AW, Mossad, Martians -- no muslim could do this -- hain ji??

Even your own article suggests there could be a foreign hand in this.

‘The indications are that it was one of our own homegrown groups, with possible linkages abroad,’ said the government official with knowledge of the investigation"

 

[roadrunner]

@ RR

I must thank you because you used the word 'possibly' before RAW in your first post.

Anyway, I still find your view somewhat biased.

Most of the times, the obvious reason is the correct one. But by over stretching the facts we can reach to any conclusion. I think this case is a good example of that.

Let's assume that all you said is correct. But, even this can carry you only to the half of the distance. You are nowhere near of proving RAW did 3/3. Only RAW being capable of doing this is not enough.

At this point, proofs are more important than common sense. Blaming based on pure guessing can make the matter worse.

There is no chance that India will accept anything (internally, if not openly) unless there is any proof. By saying India, I mean Indian people. Without any acceptance, this blaming will only increase anger.

Talking of Pakistani people, there is lot of anger but no self-confidence in their talking. Some proofs can do miracle for their moral.

So, your first aim should be to pressurize GoP to make investigation transparent and compact. There should be coherence in the official stand. Also, Pakistani people should try to boost the moral of Police force. They lost their best men and still they are the main target of blame. Also the feeling that 'their lives have no value' can be disastrous.

So, I do feel that, you might have got a right target; but your approach is certainly wrong.

Thank you and regards.

I agree with most of that.

Perhaps not where you say I'm being biased in what I posted on this thread though