My problem with Rafale, lets start with Radar

[Srinivas]

so??
will pakfa not be locally produced in india??

what is more pathbraking??pakfa production facility or rafale facility??

French are known for avionics suite and other electronic systems which are far more advanced than Russians, like su 30 MKI which combined russian rugged design with Israeli and western electronic systems. India is diversifying its buy.

India wants Russian tech as well as western advanced technologies, no need to worry about money. Get as much tech as possible and build a good domestic industry.

 

[kaykay]

besides we lack fighters especially for ground attack operations(CAS, SEAD, deep strike etc). No airforce can rely on just air-superiority. Both China and Pakistan have better capabilities for ground operations than India as we just rely on Mirage-2ks for that though mkis can perform some of them.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The best thing that can happen to PAF is for India to cancel Rafale contract and go for addition of LCA instead and wait for Russian 5th Gen.

 

[Ping]

The best option is to cancel this deal and stick with just LCA, more MKI's if necessary and PAK-FA. The current inventory itself is an overkill against the PAF. And the Chinese have far bigger headaches on their eastern border.
This light, heavy, and Goldilocks fighter bullshit is pure public propaganda by the IAF. Kids born in the 90's who populate the majority this forum dont even know of this. IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 back in the 80's, but Indira Gandhi shot it down and forced them to get the MiG-29. Hence the subsequent order went for the Mikoyan. Again they didnt give up and wanted the Mirage in the 90's, but MoD forced a tender and Mirage went head to head with the Su-30. Su-30 clearly beat the mirage black and blue, plus with lesser cost as well(where was this heavy medium nonsense when that tender took place.. huh???). IAF again got a swift kick on the behind going for a ridiculously costly platform. Then came Kargil where the IAF's PR machine worked overtime to showcase the Mirage in more limelight than the other jets. I'm not saying the Mirage performed poorly but Mirage got more coverage than all other jets put together!!! I still remember the Mirage shelter on the Airbase where NDTV was allowed access to but other jets were ignored. After the economy started booming IAF saw its chance and went for the Mirages AGAIN in the 2000's under the guise of Medium multirole combat fighter (since they knew Mirage wont stand a chance against the Su-30.. all this eventhough EVEN the USAF operates only 2 kinds of fighters not 3), only to be shot down again by the MoD which forced a tender. Everyone who knew this history KNEW rafale will come out as the winner in this tender, the next best thing after the Mirage whose production got closed down(I bet the IAF chief was wasting himself with brandy that night when news came out that the production line got shut down).

 

[he-man]

@sancho will be best person to tell us why Rafale is equally important as fgfa.

i will tell u what he will say

1)rafale is gonna replace mirage 2000 and jaguar as it has potent ground attack ability

2)spectra is just awesome,there is nothing like it(laughable)

3)IAF knows best

the problems here are

1)pakfa's side facing aesa are dedicated for ground mapping and attack

2)pakfa has way more passive sensors than rafale

3)iaf didn't test pakfa vs rafale or even su-35 vs rafale

No matter what anyone says here the fact is due to limited sise of rafale radar and its unserpowered engines it will not standup to competition post 2020 

The best thing that can happen to PAF is for India to cancel Rafale contract and go for addition of LCA instead and wait for Russian 5th Gen.

the problem is lca will never get strike capability

if we cancel rafale we will start taking early delivery of pakfa somewhere in 2018 and thats worse for paf 

The best option is to cancel this deal and stick with just LCA, more MKI's if necessary and PAK-FA. The current inventory itself is an overkill against the PAF. And the Chinese have far bigger headaches on their eastern border.
This light, heavy, and Goldilocks fighter bullshit is pure public propaganda by the IAF. Kids born in the 90's who populate the majority this forum dont even know of this. IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 back in the 80's, but Indira Gandhi shot it down and forced them to get the MiG-29. Hence the subsequent order went for the Mikoyan. Again they didnt give up and wanted the Mirage in the 90's, but MoD forced a tender and Mirage went head to head with the Su-30. Su-30 clearly beat the mirage black and blue, plus with lesser cost as well(where was this heavy medium nonsense when that tender took place.. huh???). IAF again got a swift kick on the behind going for a ridiculously costly platform. Then came Kargil where the IAF's PR machine worked overtime to showcase the Mirage in more limelight than the other jets. I'm not saying the Mirage performed poorly but Mirage got more coverage than all other jets put together!!! I still remember the Mirage shelter on the Airbase where NDTV was allowed access to but other jets were ignored. After the economy started booming IAF saw its chance and went for the Mirages AGAIN in the 2000's under the guise of Medium multirole combat fighter (since they knew Mirage wont stand a chance against the Su-30.. all this eventhough EVEN the USAF operates only 2 kinds of fighters not 3), only to be shot down again by the MoD which forced a tender. Everyone who knew this history KNEW rafale will come out as the winner in this tender, the next best thing after the Mirage whose production got closed down(I bet the IAF chief was wasting himself with brandy that night when news came out that the production line got shut down).

we cannot get more lca's as its not good enough quite simply.

we can go for upgraded su-35 with pakfa electronics.with pakfa aesa and sensors it will kick anything's arse. 

besides we lack fighters especially for ground attack operations(CAS, SEAD, deep strike etc). No airforce can rely on just air-superiority. Both China and Pakistan have better capabilities for ground operations than India as we just rely on Mirage-2ks for that though mkis can perform some of them.

as already told u ...........the times have changed,,,,,,pakfa will have very good air-groung capability and we are not getting 5 aesa radars for no reason

 

[GURU DUTT]

so??
will pakfa not be locally produced in india??

what is more pathbraking??pakfa production facility or rafale facility?? 
We have all been blinded by rafale fanboys

Rafale will be useless post 2020,,,mark my words

It has no potential in future,,,,even the mlu will cost us 60-70 million per aircraft

few things for those who consider rafale essential for IAFs future

1. there will be no TOT partial/full all we will get will be rights to assemble Semi-knocked Down french kits with complete ower haul facility and thats it

2. Rafale has a very small nose cone no dought it has spectra but russians are working on somthing like that or even much much better for FGFA which they will test/or are testing right now on latest SU35...and since we have complete setup of MKIs swtiching over to next gen SU35 wont make a great dent on owr pockets a single SU35 with latest ASEA & EW suite can beat a couple of Rafales any given day

3. FGFA will arrive at the same time as Rafale if its selected for MMRCA even before next uears elections ..so what great thing we are getting from rafale that we cant get from FGFA when both costs almost the same in terms of OFF the shelf prices and after sales service

to me rafale as MMRCA is complete waste instead of that better get equal nos of FGFA or if you want realli earli go for latest SU 35 with latest ASEA, EW suite and Wepons package

 

[kaykay]

i will tell u what he will say

1)rafale is gonna replace mirage 2000 and jaguar as it has potent ground attack ability

2)spectra is just awesome,there is nothing like it(laughable)

3)IAF knows best

the problems here are

1)pakfa's side facing aesa are dedicated for ground mapping and attack

2)pakfa has way more passive sensors than rafale

3)iaf didn't test pakfa vs rafale or even su-35 vs rafale

No matter what anyone says here the fact is due to limited sise of rafale radar and its unserpowered engines it will not standup to competition post 2020 

the problem is lca will never get strike capability

if we cancel rafale we will start taking early delivery of pakfa somewhere in 2018 and thats worse for paf 

we cannot get more lca's as its not good enough quite simply.

we can go for upgraded su-35 with pakfa electronics.with pakfa aesa and sensors it will kick anything's arse. 

as already told u ...........the times have changed,,,,,,pakfa will have very good air-groung capability and we are not getting 5 aesa radars for no reason

lols aesa has more to do with air-superiority than ground attack. And yes as I said, China is no crazy to build their ground attack capabilities like anything with more than 1000 J-10B praposed.

 

[he-man]

lols aesa has more to do with air-superiority than ground attack. And yes as I said, China is no crazy to build their ground attack capabilities like anything with more than 1000 J-10B praposed.

did u read it dude??

it has 3 frontal x band aesas

one for air superiority..........with 1500 t/r modules

the other 2 side arrays with 400 t/r each are primarily for ground attack


cut this technical thing apart...........................pakfa has way better avionics than rafale,,,,at least the radars 

lols aesa has more to do with air-superiority than ground attack. And yes as I said, China is no crazy to build their ground attack capabilities like anything with more than 1000 J-10B praposed.

u know china so well right??!!

they are the second biggest economy in the world right now and when u put money u can get anything.

 

[Echo_419]

sirji my point is what differene does it makes if its a light , medium or heaqvy weight plane what matters is owr threats and assets to have a upper hand

see like this

1.160-200 LCAs with around 450-500 Km Fighting radius withowt extra feul tanks + laets ASEA , EW suite and a mix of Irsraeli-russian& indian wepons can perform a great job point defence and limited bombing roles best suited for owr western front backed by

2. 3 squads each of MIG 29 & M2K ugrades as second line of defence /edium fighters

3. 270 MKI/Super MKIs with Latest ASEA, EW suite and wepons pakage as the back bone

4.a couple of squads dedecated EW platforms like F18 growler with latest ARAAMs &HARM pakage for SEAD & DEAD missions


5.150-250 FGFA as frontline defence for chinese sector

now tell me where is the need for so called MMRCA

Yaar you are telling me when we are ITUSAA door from signing the deal

Anyways i will Send your report to the Prime minister, Def Minister & IAF Chief Right away
He is to busy so he cannot come to PDF for Policy descisions on Muti Billion Dollar Deals

 

[he-man]

few things for those who consider rafale essential for IAFs future

1. there will be no TOT partial/full all we will get will be rights to assemble Semi-knocked Down french kits with complete ower haul facility and thats it

2. Rafale has a very small nose cone no dought it has spectra but russians are working on somthing like that or even much much better for FGFA which they will test/or are testing right now on latest SU35...and since we have complete setup of MKIs swtiching over to next gen SU35 wont make a great dent on owr pockets a single SU35 with latest ASEA & EW suite can beat a couple of Rafales any given day

3. FGFA will arrive at the same time as Rafale if its selected for MMRCA even before next uears elections ..so what great thing we are getting from rafale that we cant get from FGFA when both costs almost the same in terms of OFF the shelf prices and after sales service

to me rafale as MMRCA is complete waste instead of that better get equal nos of FGFA or if you want realli earli go for latest SU 35 with latest ASEA, EW suite and Wepons package

no one debates on technical points and keep on harping tot when we are gonna get nothing at all

i thought that after the 40 million per plane mirage 2000 mlu ppl will wake up

guess no 

Yaar you are telling me when we are ITUSAA door from signing the deal

Anyways i will Send your report to the Prime minister, Def Minister & IAF Chief Right away
He is to busy so he cannot come to PDF for Policy descisions on Muti Billion Dollar Deals

i don't care

the way decisions are taken u can easily see 2g scam,coal gate ets

ppl have vested interests dude

 

[kaykay]

and those who say that Pak-Fa then believe me we need fgfa and not Pak-Fa and Fgfa prototype will come only by next year and induction only after 2020-21. And there's no way we can go for 200 fgfa + 200 pak-fa(no one can expect China and USA, will be crazy to maintain and buy).
PS: there's a reason our IAF chief says that Rafale deal is a critical for us and we have no option (unless you guys think you are smarter and more knowledgable than him).

 

[he-man]

just answer this??

are we willing for a mlu worth 60-70 million per aircraft??

 

[GURU DUTT]

The best option is to cancel this deal and stick with just LCA, more MKI's if necessary and PAK-FA. The current inventory itself is an overkill against the PAF. And the Chinese have far bigger headaches on their eastern border.
This light, heavy, and Goldilocks fighter bullshit is pure public propaganda by the IAF. Kids born in the 90's who populate the majority this forum dont even know of this. IAF wanted the Mirage-2000 back in the 80's, but Indira Gandhi shot it down and forced them to get the MiG-29. Hence the subsequent order went for the Mikoyan. Again they didnt give up and wanted the Mirage in the 90's, but MoD forced a tender and Mirage went head to head with the Su-30. Su-30 clearly beat the mirage black and blue, plus with lesser cost as well(where was this heavy medium nonsense when that tender took place.. huh???). IAF again got a swift kick on the behind going for a ridiculously costly platform. Then came Kargil where the IAF's PR machine worked overtime to showcase the Mirage in more limelight than the other jets. I'm not saying the Mirage performed poorly but Mirage got more coverage than all other jets put together!!! I still remember the Mirage shelter on the Airbase where NDTV was allowed access to but other jets were ignored. After the economy started booming IAF saw its chance and went for the Mirages AGAIN in the 2000's under the guise of Medium multirole combat fighter (since they knew Mirage wont stand a chance against the Su-30.. all this eventhough EVEN the USAF operates only 2 kinds of fighters not 3), only to be shot down again by the MoD which forced a tender. Everyone who knew this history KNEW rafale will come out as the winner in this tender, the next best thing after the Mirage whose production got closed down(I bet the IAF chief was wasting himself with brandy that night when news came out that the production line got shut down).

so your saying that M2k Is what IAF always wanted and was prooved right after kargil war , now since M2k proction line is closed why dint indian govt went ahead to get it straight from french then ?

and if according to you this MMRCA contract is nothing but a PR gimmick by the IAF as they want a pure western block ground attack/multi role platform..ie M2K kindda plane they are fooling indian publick

my question is why not the make /modify LCA into a better ground attck plane wiith an enlarged belly for more internal feul so it gives it a decent fighting radius with conformal feul tanksfor extra range and more pylons dedicated to carry more wepons like wing tips and a couple on wings and a ground maping ASEA based radar with a better engine and EW suite

 

[he-man]

and those who say that Pak-Fa then believe me we need fgfa and not Pak-Fa and Fgfa prototype will come only by next year and induction only after 2020-21. And there's no way we can go for 200 fgfa + 200 pak-fa(no one can expect China and USA, will be crazy to maintain and buy).
PS: there's a reason our IAF chief says that Rafale deal is a critical for us and we have no option (unless you guys think you are smarter and more knowledgable than him).

the iaf chief is desperate for anything,i give him that

tell me the diff between pakfa and fgfa??

answer-------barring mission computers,software and engines there is none

if we sign pakfa deal this year and work towards it we can get fgfa even in 2018 barring new engines which will come in 2020

 

[kaykay]

did u read it dude??

it has 3 frontal x band aesas

one for air superiority..........with 1500 t/r modules

the other 2 side arrays with 400 t/r each are primarily for ground attack


cut this technical thing apart...........................pakfa has way better avionics than rafale,,,,at least the radars 

u know china so well right??!!

they are the second biggest economy in the world right now and when u put money u can get anything.

so your point is that since we are low on money, we shouldn't develop our ground attack capabilities?? I'll rather have an airforce with mixed capabilities with air-superiority(mki,fgfa, mig-29) and ground capabilities(rafale, mrage-2k5)