Muslims won't give up Babri Masjid : Razakars

[livingdead]

History says that a temple existed underneath the mosque and ASI has documented it clearly. What history are you talking about ?

We are talking about the land dispute. At the heart of this, is the land, and the dispute is about who it belongs to (not hindu vs muslim, but actual org/person that owns it).
What is beneath the ground cannot change the legal position about ownership of a land.

 

[rubyjackass]

The law which guarentees the status quo of structures as on Aug 15 1947 does NOT cover Ayodhya. So technically the demolition itself was not in contravention to any law. Perhaps cases can be filed for unlawful assembly, rioting etc. That is to it.

You got to be kidding me. I don't understand whether you are unreasonably bigoted or simply uneducated. The least that can be said of the demolition is that it is contempt of court and a lot of related charges because the case was subjudice.

 

[KingMamba]

Muslims of India should just let them make that temple.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Nope Mecca always belonged to Islam, your post just shows general lack of Islamic theology. Saudi law is different Hindus living there do so for work and work alone even Muslims of other countries can work and work alone. They are not allowed to own property so permanent residence is out of the question, so building a temple in that situation is pointless. The only reason Muslim immigrants have mosques is because the Saudis themselves are Muslims.

The Iran part is laughable to because the Ummayads did not want the Iranians to embrace Islam and relented for 300 years as the Iranian tax was making them rich. It was the Persians who embraced it themselves and evolved the concepts (Sufism being one) which then spread to other places and people like the Turks and the people of the subcontinent.

Stop peddling lies about Persia. You will only convince your own types.

And Ayodhya always belonged to Hindus, and thats not some theological crap people came up with later along with stories of flying angels, thats a FACT. Learn to differentiate. You offering theology as an argument makes me laugh.

I meant it is really not settled. And court has tried to balance it (something for both) which is actually unfair to muslims (the aggrieved party)
Have not all india barbi masjid action comittee appealed against the verdict?

Yes thats how the courts work, people can appeal until the last level of highest court as allowed for the case type. If the higher court rules in favor of muslims you will suddenly realise the court can settle this issue, will you not

I don't care two hoots about the mandir, its a waste of money and time. But I don't mind knowing the truth. For example look at the following - just one from many - at qutb minar - I want to know the history, whats the harm? After all all these muslims want to keep their mosque on the holy mound, don't they?

 

[KS]

These are two posts that I posted on the same issue on another fora. Requoting it here.

Actually that would have put to rest the ghosts of the past and many would have considered even the accounts settled and a fresh page begun in Hindu-Muslim relations. By doing it the other way they have ensured that the ghosts of the past are NOT exorcised and the issue is kept alive.

A tactical victory of portaying the picture of a brutal majority suppressing a minority but a long term strategic loss of loosing a chance to make a fresh beginning and taking away one cause for rallying of the Hindus. Actually they had another chance when the HC judgement came about where a new beginning could have been made with no loss of face. But when you have the likes of Jilani and Owaisi portraying a politically fair judgement as a defeat, then you know what is wrong with the other side. They want to play victim, even if they are not and that thinking will not take them very far.

Then that means you dont understand the Hindu psyche. Let me tell you, its very very very easy to gain the sympathy of the Hindu, not in this case alone, but almost generally. One right thing and decades of wrong doing will easily be forgotten. Why do you think the political parties do good things right at the end of their terms. A Hindu generally remembers only the last good done to him. But that is gradually disappearing and the window of opportunity is closing. Ofcourse I cant say for the 100%,,but Im generalizing.



Its absolutely true that Hindutva gained prominence with the temples. And temples are the center of the Hindu thought and identity.




Yes, that a metamorphosis due to the recalcitrance exhibited by the Muslim leadership on this issue and also because of the terrorism that we face. That is why I said that the refusal of the Muslims to hand over the site was a tactical victory but a long term strategic loss. If this temple issue had been solved atleast there is a good chance that the average Hindu clearly discerns between the outside forces and the inside Muslims. By not exhibiting that foresight the Muslim leadership itself is blurring the lines.




Atleast you can be sure of one thing - maintaining the Dharmic identity of India as such, not becoming another Egypt or South Korea (culture wise) , have a persecution free land where the pagans can go about their mundane rituals without fearing the Abrahamic backlash. The details can be filled in later or they get evolved with time.

And true a large section of the Hindu population wants to do nothing with that...but as long as the Muslim leadership shows the same tunnel vision, time is there. And the right wing is slowly but surely growing.

 

[KingMamba]

Neither are Hindus going to give up on the Mandir. Period. They never gave up for 400 years when the mandir was initially destroyed and will never give up in the future. Too much blood has been shed for any of us to be going back. We Hindus have this one country for ourselves. If we are denied the right to build a mandir at one of our most sacred sites, I cant believe it.

If the Muslims had been gracious enough to acknowledge the importance of Ayodhya to Hindus and decided to voluntarily give up the claims to the disputed structure, then most of the historical wrongs would have just been forgotten, a right wing revival would have been nipped in the bud and a new beginning would have started. But a complete lack of foresight amongst their leaders made sure history was not forgotten and new right wing movement was revived which was lying low after decades of congress rule. This lack of foresight was also exemplified by the decision of the BMAC to not abide by the Allahabad high court order and take the issue to the SC.

Look at Somnath - the premise is exactly the same. A holy temple (Somnath is one of the 12 Jyotirlingas) was destroyed by a barbarian invader and a mosque built on top of it. But once we got freedom that was rectified and the original status restored when the current Somnath temple was reconstructed and the mosque was shifted to a nearby site where the Hidnus and the GoI helped build it. Now there is no problem there. Similarly had some had the foresight to do the same in Ayodhya things would not have to this situation where the country is sharply polarized on religious lines on this topic. It would have been gradually forgotten and things would have been normal. The more and more this issue is dragged, the more and more stands are hardened on either sides and finally if it comes to numbers, then there is only one side that is going to win and IMO that is only a pyrrhic victory.

The premise is simple - already a mandir is existing there and it functions as such with devotees allowing regular darshans and with all the pooja done. What needs to be done is the expansion of the temple. And it will be done. And one thing must be understood by all - if the existing Ram temple is touched in Ayodhya, then they must be ready for the consequences.

And before anybody comes with the "we are secular this" "we are secular that"..understand we are secular and tolerant only because the majority wants it, not because the minority demands its. Don't upset that balance. There is a limit to everything.

If Muslims do so now out of the goodness of their hearts will the hatred be removed or is it too far gone??

 

[Yeti]

Ayodhya is the birthplace of Lord Rama and a temple will be built there, there is nothing else to say on this matter.

 

[KS]

You got to be kidding me. I don't understand whether you are unreasonably bigoted or simply uneducated. The least that can be said of the demolition is that it is contempt of court and a lot of related charges because the case was subjudice.

Blame that on the brutal killing of 307 Kar Sevaks by the Mulayam Singh Govt who had assembled in Ayodhya to perform Kar Seva considering that the court had then allowed opening the gates of the disputed site. That bloodbath solidified the Kar Sevaks into a vengeful mob and rest happened. See history can be interpreted in any way.

Some headlines from regional newpapers from that fateful period,

“Kartik ke snan parv per khoon se nahai Ayodhya, Jalianwala kaand beuna pada”

“Yadi Balidaan nahi hue tho kahaan gaye yeh 307 Kar Sevak?”

And what I said is a fact, the law recognizing the status quo does structures does not include Ayodhya.

And even if its contempt of court, you may punish the ones responsible for it. But the mandir is going nowhere.

 

[KingMamba]

Stop peddling lies about Persia. You will only convince your own types.

And Ayodhya always belonged to Hindus, and thats not some theological crap people came up with later along with stories of flying angels, thats a FACT.

Nope Persia is true, if it was so forced it would not have took 300 years for it to spread in Persia maybe 10 max. The Persian themselves embraced it, the Ummayads were not allowed to touch Zakat tax but non Muslim tax went straight to them so they did not promote conversion. It was few missionaries such as the Syeds who emigrated because of Ummayad oppression that helped convert the populace. It was Persian soldiers who fought alongside the Abbasids to overthrow the Ummayads in years that followed. All major scholars of Islam were influenced by Persian thought or passed through Persia. Most if not all Saints moved from Persia to the Indian Subcontinent. The Turks were Muslim because of Muslim influence from Persia.

 

[Areesh]

If Muslims do so now out of the goodness of their hearts will the hatred be removed or is it too far gone.

If Indian muslims do something like that, then Babri Masjid won't be the last Mosque in India that would be demolished to reverse what the "invaders" did centuries ago. There won't be any stopping.

 

[rubyjackass]

History says that a temple existed underneath the mosque and ASI has documented it clearly. What history are you talking about ?

If I as a private person found explicit documents(I mean legally admissible historically unchallengable documents) on my land(registered to my name) that say Krishna was born on my land, still I am not liable to give up my land to build a temple there. I may have to give it up for archaeological survey of India or such agencies but not for a temple. The only problem with Babri was that there were legal proceedings regarding it for over a century.

 

[Kompromat]

That logic is lame. There were no Muslims in India once, now there are thousands mosques. There were no Muslims in Persia once, when Arabs invaded, they built mosques by destroying fire temples.

Thats the same logic Taliban used to destroy Baminayn statues, when in reality the statues were made when there were no muslims there. Heck Mecca itself belonged to another religion when Muslims won it by force and broke the statues just like they did everywhere else, including thousands of places in India. Sikandar Butsikan anyone, today kashmir is majority muslims thanks to force, if left to these lunatics it will be 100% muslim and then the same lame logic will be applied some more.

Trying to pull a fast one, are we?
PS there are hundred of thousands of hindus in Saudi, and no Hindu temple. Thats the reality, as against cheap lip service.

There are mosques in India because it has the 2nd largest Muslim population in the world.
There are NO Temples in Saudi Arabia because not a SINGLE Saudi citizen is a Hindu.

Is, it hard to understand?

 

[Yeti]

If Indian muslims do something like that, then Babri Masjid won't be the last Mosque in India that would be demolished to reverse what the "invaders" did centuries ago. There won't be any stopping.

Babri was disputed there is also Kashi mosque that sits on the bank of the river Ganges apart from this we have no other disputes.

 

[Kompromat]

Ayodhya is the birthplace of Lord Rama and a temple will be built there, there is nothing else to say on this matter.

When was he born?

 

[KingMamba]

@fateh71 most modern scholars agree with what I have told you, if you want to see what forced conversion can do read up on Shia conversion on Persia. It took a few years and Iran was Shia. Compare that to 300 years of Sunni "forced conversion" and it makes one laugh that people try to push that forward.