‘Muslims need to assimilate into Europe’

[Developereo]

So, yet another JayAtl rant, long on bloviation but short on substance...

really- how fanatical can you be? how radicalized is your upbringing? - that you cite the odd the cases and wants us to believe that such is in the majority ?

These are not 'odd' cases. Do you even understand the concept of a 'landmark case'? Do you have any knowledge of the history of school prayer in North America and the various rulings that have affected it over the years?

you are yet to show me an iota of proof to dispute the overwhleming FACT! that of the cases being brought forth, is by the agnostic crowd/ organizations.

What part of of "During America's history, most of the challenges to local prayer and Christmas ceremonies have been brought by individual citizens -- either Jewish, atheist or otherwise." do you have trouble understanding?

DID YOU KNOW MUSLIMS BRING CASES TOO! as violations of chruch vs. state creed in the US too( see north carloina case and other odd cases about building mosques on private lands)? does that mean that it would be true if someone says that all muslims who bring it are hidden by the media like you stated about the jews?

Where did I ever deny that Muslims bring cases? Again, reading comprehension problems.

And where did I say that the media hides all cases by Jews?

Clearly, you are here to make soapbax rants for your fellow Indians than to debate the actual posts.

As usual.

ACLU gets involved later? do you even know their mandate? do you know how many cases they initiated in this sphere?... or is everything about big bad jews for you , as evident from your weekly mantra here..

do you even realize that other than your crowd of like minded folks-- rest of the world laughs about how your ilk is quick to crib about the same culture, democracry and like minded thinking that you covet- as evident from your choice of residency?


psst- ACLU does not need to be on a national hunt-- its a national civil rights gate keeper...,

Do you even know how the legal process works in the US? Do you know that the ACLU gets involved when someone contacts them for assistance? Try posting an actual coherent thought backed by specifics rather than generic nebulous rants.

What the h*ll is a 'civil rights gatekeeper'? Is this a term you just invented because you had nothing of substance to post?

stick to austrailian politics dundee... while you are at it, give my thanks to the PM for making the INDIAN/US alliance come closer -- and the forth coming uranium del- oh! let's not forget the US bases as a permanent fixture in your land --

Word of advice: I notice you play up your American side (and downplay your Indian side) when trying to browbeat people (especially the Pakistanis and Chinese) by riding high on American achievements. This being an international forum, you never know the background of people reading your posts and, for people who are far more conversant with American culture than you with your paltry knowledge, your simplistic diatribes always provide comic relief. Especially coming from an Indian-American.

So -- fair warning -- think very carefully before playing that card here.

 

[jeypore]

Jeypore,

Many religious minorities have created local neighborhoods

exactly!!!!!!!!!!

And are happy.

Here is another puzzling question to ask you Mr. Truth, Given based on immigrants in American with there religious culture and belief, which one of these has pushed to a form of societal change? Even the Jewish, where cultural and religious values are so important for there own lifestyle, has they pushed in any way of American lifestyle???????????

 

[TruthSeeker]

exactly!!!!!!!!!!

And are happy.

Here is another puzzling question to ask you Mr. Truth, Given based on immigrants in American with there religious culture and belief, which one of these has pushed to a form of societal change? Even the Jewish, where cultural and religious values are so important for there own lifestyle, has pushed the American way of life???????????

I cannot think of any immigrant group that has pushed for a change in the American value system. Actually, the strongest advocates for change in the basic values of the US Constitution are political movements such as Marxists and, more recently, secular humanists, such as the ACLU. Most of the proponents of these changes are European-Americans who have had privileged upbringings. So far, the American founding fathers vision of a Constitutional Republic has been more powerful than any alternative political constructs that may have been brought by immigrants. Probably that is because immigrants to the USA have come BECAUSE of the American political system and the freedoms and opportunities it offers to the hardworking individual. In reality, most immigrant populations have managed to move into the middle class and even into the upper middle class or wealthy class within two or, at most, three generations. The least successful have been the descendants of African Americans who were brought as slaves, not truly immigrants. African Americans who have immigrated directly from Africa since WWII are very successful. Hispanic populations are somewhat less successful because they have not assimilated linguistically as rapidly as most other non-English speaking immigrants.

 

[jeypore]

I cannot think of any immigrant group that has pushed for a change in the American value system. Actually, the strongest advocates for change in the basic values of the US Constitution are political movements such as Marxists and, more recently, secular humanists, such as the ACLU. Most of the proponents of these changes are European-Americans who have had privileged upbringings. So far, the American founding fathers vision of a Constitutional Republic has been more powerful than any alternative political constructs that may have been brought by immigrants. Probably that is because immigrants to the USA have come BECAUSE of the American political system and the freedoms and opportunities it offers to the hardworking individual. In reality, most immigrant populations have managed to move into the middle class and even into the upper middle class or wealthy class within two or, at most, three generations. The least successful have been the descendants of African Americans who were brought as slaves, not truly immigrants. African Americans who have immigrated directly from Africa since WWII are very successful. Hispanic populations are somewhat less successful because they have not assimilated linguistically as rapidly as most other non-English speaking immigrants.

Exactly. This is the understanding that we work on, but some Muslims work on differently, while living in US or any other western culture. What they want is full example of there own religious beliefs and push the current culture system to abide by it; based on there on belief, that is why I have given example of Minnesota example..

In fact the example of local culture in the Muslims community in the state is Dearborn, MI. Look it up, and really see how the American Constitution is flexible based on there own needs...................

 

[53fd]

The biggest issue I see with America is, it is a land made up of immigrants, & does not really have its distinct identity. When America was progressing well in the industrial revolution, people were ready to immigrate here & let go off their motherland. But in recent times, this nation I believe has become too divided. America has not been doing well, & people still have their ties with their motherland (globalization I guess, the world has shrunk). America today is a shadow of what it used to be, especially in terms of its policies (& 'freedoms'). With each & every passing day, it is resembling more of a 3rd world nation than its former great self. If America engages itself aggressively with another nation (while I don't think there is a serious enough problem in America), I could see shifting loyalties of some people living here.

 

[Developereo]

then dont go the country for earning your living after all your culture is at stake....

they want to go there to earn money,....because their own countries are shithole when compared to west...but then they crib about how the western culture is destroying them and they must have revenge......

i dont know where these people get such ingenious logic frm....

I was simply stating their position in response to a request for clarification. I was not defending or condoning it.

the poster you replied comes in this category...

Yes, yes, we understand your frustration from the other thread. Anyone exposing the truth about Hindutva fundamentalism is a:

- secularist liar
- communalist liar
- Marxist liar
- Muslim/Islamist liar
- Christian liar
- Supreme court judge liar

and a new one added recently,

- weakling!

Ironic coming from a poster whose avatar shows the Hindutva swastika conquering the globe!

 

[roadrunner]

Exactly. This is the understanding that we work on, but some Muslims work on differently, while living in US or any other western culture. What they want is full example of there own religious beliefs and push the current culture system to abide by it; based on there on belief, that is why I have given example of Minnesota example..

In fact the example of local culture in the Muslims community in the state is Dearborn, MI. Look it up, and really see how the American Constitution is flexible based on there own needs...................

Why do you say 'exactly', when what he said and what you say had nothing to do with each other?

Can you read or are you desperate for popularity?

 

[roadrunner]

For example in Minnesota, there were these Muslim taxi cabs that did not allow any customers, caring any wine/alcohol, in there cabs. They took this incident to court and lost, but this was an direct push on the culture of America.

thanks..

What do they do? Frisk them to see if they're carrying alcohol? Somehow you've got this confused as usual .

 

[roadrunner]

really- how fanatical can you be? how radicalized is your upbringing? - that you cite the odd the cases and wants us to believe that such is in the majority ?

jayatl,

developereo didnt say anything of that. He clearly said beforehand, and i quote, "Even today, there are instances of demands for change to established practices by Hindus, Sikhs and others. These stories die at the community level; rarely do they make the national headlines as they do when Muslims are involved."

The only people I've seen trying to establish odd cases and representative of a religious minority are the Indians such as yourself and Jeypore. Yet you accuse Develepereo of it.

 

[Vinod2070]

exactly....and it has been emitted from the horse's mouth many times when the western leaders have openly admited that their culture is based on judeo-chritian values and not arabic or islamic just like indian culture is based on dharmic values or chinese culture is based on confucian/buddhist values.......why dont these people understand that simple point....

Exactly.

Conflicts can be conflicts of inherent values or conflicts of customs etc.

The former are much tougher to deal with. The latter are easier.

In the case of European immigrants to other European countries or USA, the "conflict" is still the latter. The basic value systems are the same.

In case of Asian/African immigrants, there is a greater chance of differences of the basic value system.

When some of these differences stand out like a sore thumb, they are much tougher to deal with. That is what is happening here.

To compare these value system differences with the some of the other much easier issues is to ignore the real problem.

 

[khalidwaleed]

u said it.....itz loud and clear

 

[khalidwaleed]

there is no need of so called assimilation in any way. Never add or remove anything from Islam, for making somebody happy. I am Indian and I am so happy to live as a practicing Muslim in India with out assimilation .

Muslims should actively participate in educational, economic and political areas of the society. but should know our boundaries.

Actually it is a misconception that being yourself will keep others away from you. we should participate in politics and other areas but should maintain our identity. I am a member of the political party IUML. (A Website on Indian Union Muslim League | IUML | Muslim League)
we are a minority here, but we were good enough to have a good relation with the rest of the people and we are now in the Indian government. E. Ahamed ,the Minister of State (Deputy Minister) for the Ministry of External Affairs and minister of state for Human Resource Development of the Republic of India is from IUML. We are in good relation with others in the society, we are in the government, but we still clearly holds our identity as Muslims, there are things in society, we should do and somethings that we cannot do.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Apparently they have a propensity to wear ladies outwear.. Go figure.

Let me for try this for the last time with you here w/ an another example :

certain grades of fertilizers are not sold anymore to farmers and even how much you can buy, is heavily regulated in europe and US.

Can they make bombs from normal fertilzers? yes --- does that mean they should allow the higher grades to be sold openly? _ No.

Trenchcoat= lower grade , burqa= higher grade

That is just a horrible analogy - particular types/grades of chemicals allow for more potent explosives to be made - A burqa does not allow a suicide bomber to be any more successful than an individual hiding his explosive vest under a coat or jacket.

Only in the case of tracking/finding a suspect/s whose description is known does the Burqa become a hindrance to security, and in such cases, as I argued, LEA's can be given certain powers to declare temporary bans on facial coverings in public.

 

[oyea]

It means..Stop practicing Islam..be an atheist or better be a confused mixture of all sort of ideas...and if you are a woman show your cleavage and be proud of it.

Maaaaaaaaan, that was well said!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

all they ask .. follow our constitution and keep your " original" countries religious , political, regional politcs to your kitchen table. and IF you are to seek its citizenship - show some loyalty . would you ask any different of your immigrants?

That is incorrect - the 'original nation's politics' do not have to be 'relegated to the kitchen table', the US constitution allows for all manner of groups to lobby in favor of legislation that those groups support, whether it be 'gay marriage, traditional marriage, abortion, or shariah law'.

The point here is that the the above groups can try and push through whatever legislation or amendments they wish to, so long as they use a constitutional and legal process - if the majority disagrees with the policies these groups are trying to put in place, then those policies will not get through.

Of course, if the majority denies certain rights to immigrants (or other groups, such as homosexuals) without any reason other than xenophobia and/or prejudice, as seen in France with the ban on the headscarf, then the affected groups should also be free to challenge the constitutionality of these restrictions in on whatever platform they legally can, till the matter is resolved.