Musharraf ruined PAF project, says ex-air chief

[blain2]

Nothing illegal on the part of any quarters here. ACM Kaleem Sadat did exactly what he is paid for, which is to bring to Musharraf's attention the technical merits and challenges faced with integration, Musharraf did what he needed to do in light of Pak-China relations.

As a matter of reality, this stuff goes on all over. Services want something, many times they get it but not exactly in the way they want it. So all is not lost. If PAF decide that more Erieyes are needed then follow-on orders can be put in.

 

[Interceptor]

Even keeping in mind the conflict of interest, what does he hope to achieve with this 'revelation'?

Is SAAB hoping the new government might restore the original order of 6?

But the important point is that the contract was for 6 AWACS and not 4, the PAF must have made a cross analysis before opting for Saab, it is coming from the ACM, the revelation is intriguing. We now would use two different platforms one Chinese and one Western it would have been wise to invest in Chinese after we had our own to start off with.

Like we are currently doing when opting for J-10's as they quite similar in performance in comparison with the F-16 we have.

 

[shehbazi2001]

While I dont know anything about kickbacks and under the table deals, I can discuss other aspects of this issue. We can see from the following list that how many countries have more than one types of AEW aircrafts. AEW by its very nature are only a few and mostly one type is sufficient.

France E-3F AWACS, E-2 (Navy)

UK E-3D

Saudi Arabai E-3A

India Phalcon

Israel Phalcon on 707 and on Gulfstream G550. Till 1994 operated E-2 Hawkeye.

Chile Phalcon 707

Singapore Phalcon on Gulfstream G550, E-2

Thailand Erieye

Greece Erieye

Mexico Erieye, E-2 (Navy)

Brazil Erieye

Australia 737 Wedgetail (Near Future)

Turkey 737 Wedgetail (Near Future)

South Korea 737 Wedgetail

Japan E-767 and E-2

Taiwan E-2

Egypt E-2


Keeping in view the maintenance and "operational availability" of aircraft on a given time, its better to have more aircraft of same type, if numbers are small.

If we have 6 AEW, we may have 3 or 4 available for operations at any time. If we have 4 AEW, we may have 2 aircrafts available at any given time.

Even if Swedish AEW data is compromised, its not the death warrant for us. We have ground based radars too. Our fighter aircrafts also have radars. Army air defence also have radars.

If swedish AEW can be hacked/jammed, then I think Army RBS-23, PAF Crotale and Spada can also be jammed/hacked etc. Then our latest US supplied TPS-77 and older TPS-43 radars can also be compromised and the list goes on to F-16s, AMRAAMs, Naval Submarines, Anti-ship missiles etc.

This fear should not overwhelm us and influence our induction policies, rather we must keep it in consideration and customise/modify/upgrade the systems ourselves.

Like the RWR and radar-frequencies/modes that can be changed according to the will of operator within certain limits, similarly Pakistani Forces should look inside-out into the programming stored in chips of these systems and correct any bugs or remove any "virus/trojans" and operate them accordingly.

Indian Jaguars could not do the Durandal delivery due to a software bug and indians themselves pointed it out and it was later corrected (fire control computer).

The more important thing is that ....what is the guarantee that chinese systems cant be hacked or jammed? If tests prove it, then its worthy of induction. For the induction of defence equipment, the foremost consideration is technical/performance.

Other than AEW, chinese equipment for Pakistan is like Israeli equipment for India. Israeli equipment is mostly unkown to Pakistan and chinese equipment (not all) may not be completely known to India.

Still, if we buy an international defence item, used by many countries (which is good for smooth spares supply), even then we can modify the system locally to change its characterisitics. One example is the use of Mirage by Israeli Air Force, which was not standard french Mirage and modified locally. All changes proved extremely valuable in 1967 and 1973 wars.

 

[BoggedDown]

For the induction of defence equipment, the foremost consideration is technical/performance.

I do not agree with it. In my opinion reliability is more important than performance. A high performance good has no value if it is not reliable. The reliability is absolutely must in ordering, delivery, operation, performance, maintenance through its life cycle. I have stated it many time that due to the similar short sightedness that ex ACM has showed here is the responsible for the current sorry state PAF is in now. It has made same blunder in 80s is by sticking only F16s (being superior but unreliable supplier) while Mirage 2000s were also offered though may be a bit less capable in some areas. Same happened in 90s while F16s are embargoed but keep paying for it foolishly and than dilly dallying with Mirage order. PAF need to learn the virtue of diversification and adopt procurement policy from multiple vendors. Our bad luck is India is master of it in every aspect from politics, international relation, military to business. But it is typical of Pakistanis to be mono vision, seeing either black or white, love or hate. That is why I used to say that Pakistan performs best while under sanctions from west and hope the US put sanction on us again permanently so that it would open the eyes of snobby idiots of some of our ruling class be in civilians or military.

 

[BATMAN]

The allegation of malafide intentions without clearly saying what he means is a typical journalistic spin.

Beautifuly explained..., how Pakistan media confuse the masses, which is very much clear from the subject which mention ‘project’ instead of AWAC’s and ‘ruined’ instead of slashed the order.

Corruption in military deals in Pakistan like everywhere else is nothing new.

Corruption in military deals has always been done by politicians of Pakistan e.g. BB took double kick back, when she canceled the entire F-16 deal and received surplus US crop, whose market value was much less and even the transport bill was inflated.
Otherwise US had to self finance to get rid of surplus wheat and Pakistan’s PNSC was never asked to make proposal for transport.
This deal alone will remain the biggest kick back in world history of military deals.
Credit of second biggest kick back deal involving a aircraft contract of $4billion from French also goes to PPP.

If that is the case shouldn't it be applicable to rest of the country too.Hey then even Politicians should be ok too.

Politicians eat the entire country like parasite.
I’m sorry to say politics is not a profession, where they can credit any service to nation, other than some murders during the power struggel.
Again PPP top the list in civilian kick back deals, SGS-Cotecna, ARY, Ursus Polish tractor deal, Swedish aircraft deal, Agosta submarine purchasae, etc.
I think NAB was handling mostly civilian kick back cases and big names from present govt. were in the list, inclusive of prominent musheers, speakers, ministers etc.
Recently, PML foiled a civilian kickback deal by our dear govt. when they did not invite bids for CNG busses did not made any case study but orderd to buy Indian scrap, imagine they started where they left.
Apart from this we all know how, Ishaq khan, Farooq leghari, Watoo, Wayeen and Nawaz Sharif to expose corruption of PPP wide open in the state media and that will remain a record untill it is also burned down by PPP like they did in FIA and NAB record rooms, immediately after assuming power.
PPP leadership is convicted in courts of all Europe. There rule has always ended with trail of gross corruptions.

Mush never was or is an airforce man.

Thanks for the information. Who decide airforce deals in your india?
As stated by PAFAce:

There could have been a million other reasons for the insistence to buy from the Chinese which Mr. Kaleem may have been unaware of…

P.Musharraf, was elected President of Pakistan by 2 tire system 1) Nationwide referendum 2) Parliament.A

Why do we all not think that it was Musharraf who organised funds for AWACS, if it would have been up to politicians they would have bought second hand equipment at the cost of new and this is where over invoicing have chances.

Any how, since EU formed it is not easy for EU companies to passout kickbacks they can only benifit as much they were doing in this case hiring one or two aquantices and renting a house for an extra amount.
exACM Kaleem sounds a cheap person where he took meager benifit from SAAB and I'm sure he will land some job or a lot of land over this sensalization.

If 2 more AWACS are better, than ex ACM should have urged the present govt. to buy the remaining two instead of discrediting Chinese AWACS.
There is no doubt that 6 AWACS from SAAB would have been much better than 4 but decision was clearly made due to limited funds and new threat prospects from west.

 

[blain2]

While I dont know anything about kickbacks and under the table deals, I can discuss other aspects of this issue. We can see from the following list that how many countries have more than one types of AEW aircrafts. AEW by its very nature are only a few and mostly one type is sufficient.

France E-3F AWACS, E-2 (Navy)

UK E-3D

Saudi Arabai E-3A

India Phalcon

Israel Phalcon on 707 and on Gulfstream G550. Till 1994 operated E-2 Hawkeye.

Chile Phalcon 707

Singapore Phalcon on Gulfstream G550, E-2

Thailand Erieye

Greece Erieye

Mexico Erieye, E-2 (Navy)

Brazil Erieye

Australia 737 Wedgetail (Near Future)

Turkey 737 Wedgetail (Near Future)

South Korea 737 Wedgetail

Japan E-767 and E-2

Taiwan E-2

Egypt E-2


Keeping in view the maintenance and "operational availability" of aircraft on a given time, its better to have more aircraft of same type, if numbers are small.

If we have 6 AEW, we may have 3 or 4 available for operations at any time. If we have 4 AEW, we may have 2 aircrafts available at any given time.

Even if Swedish AEW data is compromised, its not the death warrant for us. We have ground based radars too. Our fighter aircrafts also have radars. Army air defence also have radars.

If swedish AEW can be hacked/jammed, then I think Army RBS-23, PAF Crotale and Spada can also be jammed/hacked etc. Then our latest US supplied TPS-77 and older TPS-43 radars can also be compromised and the list goes on to F-16s, AMRAAMs, Naval Submarines, Anti-ship missiles etc.

This fear should not overwhelm us and influence our induction policies, rather we must keep it in consideration and customise/modify/upgrade the systems ourselves.

Like the RWR and radar-frequencies/modes that can be changed according to the will of operator within certain limits, similarly Pakistani Forces should look inside-out into the programming stored in chips of these systems and correct any bugs or remove any "virus/trojans" and operate them accordingly.

Indian Jaguars could not do the Durandal delivery due to a software bug and indians themselves pointed it out and it was later corrected (fire control computer).

The more important thing is that ....what is the guarantee that chinese systems cant be hacked or jammed? If tests prove it, then its worthy of induction. For the induction of defence equipment, the foremost consideration is technical/performance.

Other than AEW, chinese equipment for Pakistan is like Israeli equipment for India. Israeli equipment is mostly unkown to Pakistan and chinese equipment (not all) may not be completely known to India.

Still, if we buy an international defence item, used by many countries (which is good for smooth spares supply), even then we can modify the system locally to change its characterisitics. One example is the use of Mirage by Israeli Air Force, which was not standard french Mirage and modified locally. All changes proved extremely valuable in 1967 and 1973 wars.

Agreed! Diversification, as much of a pain it is, can be a helpful thing in the overall scheme of things.

 

[solid state]

Musharraf was right. ACM was looking for something else....

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Musharraf was a good strategy maker. In 2002 standoff he was successful. Agreement with SAAB for AWACS was for high tech systems & agreement with China was for a good relation & for cooperation to develop AWACS technology in future in Pakistan. Because when we buy something from china it brings lot of know how to Pakistan Forces. Secondly it was a pressure tactic & message to Sweden that if sweden will derail this agreement then we have another option and for that we are also going. But 4 SAAB AWACS systems are less, in future PAF should put an extra order. Because PAF also have to cooperate with Navy and Army so numbers are less.

 

[ejaz007]

Musharaf should not have interfered. The problem is that every one thinks he is the expert. We do not let people who have the expertise in their choosen fields work independently.

What would we do with the chinese systems if they have not matured to our liking.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I very much doubt that there are kick backs available now by european union contractors or the americans at this stage. The days of big kick backs are gone---. The U S can force sanctions on any compnay competing against american contracts to a third country. So major kick backs are not possible any more.

Musharraf did the right thing---Kaleem saddat and his cohorts in the PAF had wasted 4 years of their time in ordering a plane for the paf once the sanctions were lifted---this love affair of the paf with the f 16 should have ended and paf had seeked a new direction. Now this guy is starting up a new storm---there is definitely bad blood between the army and the air force---the air force needs to get the air out of their heads and get back to the ground of reality.

 

[TexasJohn]

Batman reply

Quote:
Mush never was or is an airforce man.

Thanks for the information. Who decide airforce deals in your india?
As stated by PAFAce:

You mean my US? The dept. of Defense along with the Pentagon and the USAF!!

 

[princefaisal]

Both the Departments i.e Airforce and Army should focus on their own selection of weapons depending upon their resources and expertise. Army can't judge which AAM or aircraft is best suited for PAF. Similarly PAF can't decide on which tank or artillery is best suited for the armed forces. So if someone forces procurement of some weapons into PAF, then they will have no choice to take it but will never own it.

 

[PAFAce]

You mean my US? The dept. of Defense along with the Pentagon and the USAF!!

As far as I know, the government allocates defence buget to the DoD, NASA etc., the DoD allocates budget and resources to projects (mainly R&D) and does a lot of high-level management and planning. The Pentagon is the same thing as the DoD (am I missing something here?). Real low-level decisions are taken by the individual services (USAF, as you mentioned) and the engineering work is done by defence contractors (how can you forget the poor engineers!). That's the structure, its not a redundant system, but it is effective.

In Pakistan, its not much different. Government allocates defence budget (sometimes too much for my liking), Defence Committee of the Cabinet does the DoD work, and the services make individual decisions. Historically, there was not a lot of R&D work at the service level, not nearly as much as in the USAF, for example, but that is beginning to change now. I do not know all the details, but this seems about right to me.

Musharraf did the right thing---Kaleem saddat and his cohorts in the PAF had wasted 4 years of their time in ordering a plane for the paf once the sanctions were lifted---this love affair of the paf with the f 16 should have ended and paf had seeked a new direction. Now this guy is starting up a new storm---there is definitely bad blood between the army and the air force---the air force needs to get the air out of their heads and get back to the ground of reality.

So many puns! it hurts my head! but I'll have to disagree on one slight point. The love affair for the F-16 aside (frankly, I don't see anything wrong with waiting for a better plane), the ACM was at the time just doing his job and recommending what he thought was the better platform for the PAF. He should not, however, have come out in public like this. It really takes away from his credibility, but it also damages teh public's trust in the armed forces.

Also, what's all this stuff about "bad blood" between the Air Force and the Army. Wasn't te JCSC created for precisely this pupose? I don't think there is "bad blood". There is definitely disagreement, but that is healthy, especially when billions of dollars are on the line.
--------------------------------------------------------
Back on topic:

Re-iterating what I said before, I will agree with blain2. Both parties did what they are supposed to do, the ACM advocated the more capable system for the PAF and the General advocated a possibly more beneficial and economic alternative in the long term. These arguments between services and government heads are not uncommon at all, regardless of country. The only thing wrong here is the fact that the ex-ACM decided to go public with this information. I understand that the people have the right to know how their money is being spent, but there are better ways to do it than this.

 

[Super Falcon]

but still no news on these aeacs has arrived officialy when they will join paf only one came in paf enrieye but it has not been ofiicially been said and when chinese awacs will arrive

 

[Super Falcon]

The Commonwealth of Australia placed a contract on Boeing in December 2000 for the development and supply of the 737 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) programme, Project Wedgetail.

Boeing is the prime contractor for the program and team partners include Northrop Grumman's Electronics Sensors and Systems, Boeing Australia Limited and BAE Systems Australia.

The initial contract was for four AEW&C systems with options for up to three additional systems. The contract also provides a mission support segment and the associated ground based support segments for flight and mission crew training. In May 2004, Australia exercised options to purchase an additional two aircraft.

Boeing Australia is responsible for providing systems engineering and leading the product support teams. BAE Systems Australia is to supply the electronic support measures and the electronic warfare self-protection systems. Quantas Airways has been awarded the contract for maintenance of the aircraft. The first two aircraft will be completed by Boeing in the USA; the remainder will be modified in Australia.

The first airframe for modification was rolled out in December 2002, ready for modification and installation of the radar and systems. First flight of the aircraft with the radar and mission systems took place at the Boeing Field in Seattle in May 2004. Performance and flight handling tests were completed in July 2005. The first aircraft for modification in Australia arrived in January 2006.

Delivery of the first two aircraft, capable of peacekeeping and training roles to the Australian Air Force is planned for July 2009. These aircraft will then be upgraded to full mission capable status by January 2010. The remaining four aircraft will be delivered, fully mission capable, in early 2010. It is expected that the first aircraft will enter service with the Royal Australian Air Force's new Number 2 Squadron, with headquarters at Williamstown Air Base, by the end of 2010.

In May 2002, the Turkish government signed a contract with Boeing for four 737 AEW&C systems with options on a further two. The sale received US Government approval in September 2003. Boeing is modifying the first and Tusas Aerospace Industries (TAI) of Ankara the other three. The first aircraft for local modification arrived in March 2006.

Deliveries of the system, to be known as Peace Eagle, are expected by 2010. The first flight of the Peace Eagle was in September 2007. The first aircraft modified by TAI flew in July 2008.

In August 2006, the 737 AEW&C was selected as 'sole candidate' for South Korea's E-X requirement for four surveillance aircraft to be delivered by 2012. The contract was awarded to Boeing in November 2006.

Boeing 737-700 aircraft
The aircraft selected for the Wedgetail is the Boeing 737-700 increased gross weight variant (IGW), based on the airframe of the Boeing Business Jet. The aircraft is flown by two flight crew with between six and ten mission crew.

"The aircraft has a flying boom receptacle."The aircraft operates at an altitude of 30, 000ft to 40,000ft with a maximum operating altitude of 41,000ft. The aircraft has state-of-the-art flight deck, avionics and navigation equipment. It has an extensive communications suite including three HF, eight VHF/UHF communications systems together with Link 4A and Link 11 systems.

Engines
The aircraft is equipped with two CFM International CFM56-7B24 engines each rated at 118kN. The aircraft's maximum take-off weight is 171,000lb (77,110kg). The range is 3,800 nautical miles and the time on station is estimated at more than nine hours.

The aircraft has a flying boom receptacle and a fixed probe providing dual in-flight refuelling capability

Mission avionics
The Advanced Systems Division of BAE Systems North America is to supply major elements of the aircraft's mission avionics, including cockpit tactical mission displays, command and control consoles and mission computers. There are six multi-role / multi-purpose mission consoles with ultra-high resolution flat panel tactical displays installed in the aircraft. Production of the equipment is scheduled to be carried out at BAE's Advanced Systems Greenlawn facility.

The computers use advanced signal processing algorithms to analyse, categorise and prioritise the data. The data is presented to the mission crew on an integrated situation display on the system console. The open system architecture ensures that the systems can be upgraded and extended. The AEW&C Wedgetail aircraft is compatible and interoperable with the E-3 and 767 AWACS airborne warning and control system aircraft.

The AEW&C Peace Eagle aircraft for Turkey are being fitted with EADS Defence Electronics multi-sensor integration software.

"Deliveries of the modified system, to be known as Peace Eagle, are expected by 2010."Radar
The MESA multi-role electronically scanned array radar is being supplied by Northrop Grumman Electronic Sensors and Systems Division, based in Baltimore. Tenix Defence Systems of Adelaide, Australia, is supplying some components and modules for the radar. MESA provides 360° coverage and a range of over 200nm.

The radar has a system track capability of 3,000 targets and can track air and sea targets simultaneously.

The system's variable track update rates and dedicated tracking modes allow the operator to track allied and hostile high performance aircraft while continuously scanning the area of operations.

The electronically scanned array features an assembly of transmit and receive modules, operating at L-band and sharing three apertures to provide the 360° coverage. The radar system provides a high level of operational capability because the system is dynamically structured to match the changing mission requirements. When an operator requires a long range view of a selected sector of the operational area, then the relevant system modes can be selected to initiate the search of that sector at more than twice the nominal uniform surveillance range.

An integrated identification friend or foe system (IFF) is combined with the primary radar and uses the same aperture as the primary radar, which avoids target correlation problems. The IFF system has an operational range of over 300nm.

The distinctive 'Top Hat' radome provides a low aerodynamic drag profile while meeting the requirement for fore and aft coverage. Two large strakes are fitted on the underside at the rear section of the fuselage. The strakes provide an aerodynamic balance to offset the effect of the MESA radome on the upper surface of the fuselage. In January 2005, flight tests of the aircraft were temporarily suspended while the upper surface of the radome was raised by about 100mm, to improve radar performance.

Countermeasures
BAE Systems Australia is responsible for the electronic warfare self protection and electronic support measures subsystems for the Wedgetail.

"MESA provides 360° coverage and a range of over 200nm."Elta Electronics of Israel has been selected to supply the advanced ESM/ELINT electronic support measures system.

The system provides 360º instantaneous surveillance and is similar to Elta ESM systems on RAAF P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft.

In February 2002, Northrop Grumman Electronic Sensors was awarded the contract to provide the AN/AAQ-24(V) Nemesis directional infrared countemeasures (DIRCM) system, augmented with the Viper solid state multiband laser.


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Six Boeing AEW&C Wedgetail systems have been ordered for the Royal Australian Air Force.

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The first two aircraft are being completed by Boeing in the USA; the remainder will be modified in Australia.

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The AEW&C Peace Eagle for Turkey.

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The Boeing 737 aircraft being modified for Project Wedgetail.

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Diagram of the internal layout of the Boeing 737 AEW&C, showing location of mission systems and radar.

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The Boeing 737 AEW&C aircraft for the Royal Australian AF, with its distinctive 'Top Hat' radome for the Northrop Grumman MESA Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array radar.

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The advanced flight deck of the Boeing 737-700.

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The aircraft selected for the Wedgetail is the 737-700 Increased Gross Weight variant (IGW), based on the airframe of the Boeing Business Jet.

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The 737 AEW&C is powered by the same CFM56-7 engines as the BBJ. Operating altitude is between 30,000ft and 40,000ft and maximum cruise speed is Mach 0.82 (550mph).

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