Murder, not honour

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Sorry they have to be quoted Quran and Sunnah are both source of laws and legislation in Islam

The problem is the traditional (Cultural) system that views women, females in general, as property rather than as equals.

There's nothing here against Islam. But rather the enforcement of tribal laws upon Islam by unpar Molvis.

Quran and Sunnah itself prohibits forced marriages which themselves are prevalent.

 

[waleed3601]

Pakistan is hopeless. When educated people such as on this forum criticize a representation of their own reality as a money making tool, how do you expect the lower classes to retrospect on their attitudes?
Our nation cannot progress so long as we refuse to take a long hard look in the mirror, and judging from the comments here, I can say with surety that time is not going to come in another 100 years.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Honor killing is not just about a couple running away. there's more to it.

True, but my concern was the projection that "men are always criminal" ... thats political correctness 101 ...where only 1 party is responsible i.e male and the other party is the always the victim i.e female ..

From what I understand, the essence of honour killing is the ego of parents. They feel they have control over another human being (their child), however, when their children come of age and step into adulthood, their obligations end. They are no longer the guardians of another adult. Whatever parenting they have done till that point is all that they could do. If their child chooses a partner who is right for them, then they have succeeded in raising them. In not, well, there's nothing you can do now that you couldn't do when they were being raised by you.
As adults, the most a parent can do is advise them, definitely not force or compel them. They are now adults and responsible for their own actions and lives.

I appreciate your input, but the lens that your seeing this issue through is the western lens and that comes as no surprise as your from the UK ... The system generally set in the west is that your parents take care of you until your 15/16/17 ... you move out when your 18 and either you go to college or peruse a career etc. and for that you have relatively better economic system set up where generally speaking the population growth is less, then you have entrepreneurs going full throttle making use of every opportunity and creating jobs ... Hence moving out and being independent is made more easy and then both genders have to work and all that, which reduces cost of living per person if your in a relationship... In summary, your economic system is in harmony with your society and values etc.

However this view of the world does not hold true, when it comes to third world countries, especially the fragments of those countries with lesser education and more conservative backgrounds ...

Pakistan is hopeless. When educated people such as on this forum criticize a representation of their own reality as a money making tool, how do you expect the lower classes to retrospect on their attitudes?
Our nation cannot progress so long as we refuse to take a long hard look in the mirror, and judging from the comments here, I can say with surety that time is not going to come in another 100 years.

Well lets see ... your comment is certainly interesting and I think it is more or less directed towards the posts that I made, so I guess let me attempt to explain where I'm coming from on this issue ... I'll be the first one to say that this is a problem and needs a solution ... hence there is no "denying facts" here ... it's simply the method that I think is and should be under question ...

If I'm a patient of a disease ... then you as a "doctor" should tell ME that I've got this problem that needs solving. Instead what you do is go out and give lectures on this rare disease that you found ... and making money and recognition off of it ... while not even telling me ... forget offering a solution ...

This is exactly what we have here .. where people are making money and recognition off, 3rd world problems ... where the main target audience of a documentary is in fact the west ... if you would like to see real documentaries worth an Oscar, check out some of Michael Moore's work ... where the target audience is not only presented with a detail of the problem but possible solutions etc.

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

while not even telling me ... forget offering a solution ...

\\

There is a solution, take all these molvis.

Put them on a boat.

And test fire to see how good the Chinese 308s are.

 

[Moonlight]

ojection that "men are always criminal" ... thats political correctness 101 ...where only 1 party is responsible i.e male and the other party is the always the victim i.e female

I never said men are always guilty and women innocent.

 

[waleed3601]

Well lets see ... your comment is certainly interesting and I think it is more or less directed towards the posts that I made, so I guess let me attempt to explain where I'm coming from on this issue ... I'll be the first one to say that this is a problem and needs a solution ... hence there is no "denying facts" here ... it's simply the method that I think is and should be under question ...

If I'm a patient of a disease ... then you as a "doctor" should tell ME that I've got this problem that needs solving. Instead what you do is go out and give lectures on this rare disease that you found ... and making money and recognition off of it ... while not even telling me ... forget offering a solution ...

This is exactly what we have here .. where people are making money and recognition off, 3rd world problems ... where the main target audience of a documentary is in fact the west ... if you would like to see real documentaries worth an Oscar, check out some of Michael Moore's work ... where the target audience is not only presented with a detail of the problem but possible solutions etc.

well see the thing is here we're not diagnosing an individual at all, we're addressing an entire nation here and what better medium to do that than mass media? imran khan protested on a container for 6 months, we still have't gotten any electoral reforms, ms chinoy here released a documentary covering the plight of our women and the PM has already agreed to take up the problem. if that's not the best outcome possible than what do you suggest is? and ive not seen the film but possible solutions are something that we need to work on ourselves, since a societal ill is very much different than a biological disease in that there are many different ways to work on it once you know the problem. most cartoons, super hero movies and kids novels have morals at the end, those moral lessons are not aimed at making you do the same thing, but to make you realize that in such a given situation, what should be the path you should take. im not really good at putting things in words, but i think you can understand where im getting at.
basically, as long as we people continue to ignore a problem and behave like it doesn't exist, just to cover up our own shortcomings, there can never be change.

 

[abdulbarijan]

I never said men are always guilty and women innocent.

I was responding to your statement "Most of the time honor killing is to cover up the sins of the men." which sounded pretty much like that to me ...

\\

There is a solution, take all these molvis.

Put them on a boat.

And test fire to see how good the Chinese 308s are.

and what about the extremist leftists out there ... Should we test a nuke armed Nasr on them as well ? I mean for someone who is from the US .. it is very easy to say well, all you have to do is get of these religious people ... But you can't solve 3rd world problems wearing 1st world shoes ...

Right now, you have "X" amount of people under poverty line, "Y" amount of people who are illiterate, "Z" amount of people who don't have access to water and basic health facilities --- convincing them through argument is already hard as it is ... the last thing you need to do is mess with their religious framework which is not just a "religion" for them but a source of identification which they hold quite precious .... and is perhaps the most important part of their lives ... and these "X" "Y" "Z" people are the majority ...

Bottom line is a change in the societal framework takes a lot of time and effort ... and you have to mediate that change correctly, in order to solve the problem ... otherwise a drastic societal change in of itself becomes a huge problem ...

 

[Moonlight]

I was responding to your statement "Most of the time honor killing is to cover

Most of the time not always. Also, I was not talking about honor killing for love/court marriages. I hope I have cleared my point now.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Most of the time not always. Also, I was not talking about honor killing for love/court marriages. I hope I have cleared my point now.

Do you have any proof of "most of the time" claim of yours .... ... just kidding ... got your point ..

well see the thing is here we're not diagnosing an individual at all, we're addressing an entire nation here and what better medium to do that than mass media? imran khan protested on a container for 6 months, we still have't gotten any electoral reforms, ms chinoy here released a documentary covering the plight of our women and the PM has already agreed to take up the problem. if that's not the best outcome possible than what do you suggest is? and ive not seen the film but possible solutions are something that we need to work on ourselves, since a societal ill is very much different than a biological disease in that there are many different ways to work on it once you know the problem. most cartoons, super hero movies and kids novels have morals at the end, those moral lessons are not aimed at making you do the same thing, but to make you realize that in such a given situation, what should be the path you should take. im not really good at putting things in words, but i think you can understand where im getting at.
basically, as long as we people continue to ignore a problem and behave like it doesn't exist, just to cover up our own shortcomings, there can never be change.

Got your point ... and I actually agree ... we shouldn't ignore the problem ... we should recognize it ... but the fact of the matter is this ... that the message is targeted, NOT at the society that has the problem ... the "market" that this documentary serves is that of some gender equality/women's right/ social activists of the WEST ...

As far as the assembly and all ... you know as well as I do that nothing will happen .. they will have a session or two about it ... and it'll all simmer down ... The problem is ... we at heart, are hypocritical ... the people that supposedly are "highlighting" these problems don't even have a promotion effort in the society where the problem lies ... that in of itself should be quite telling ...

Like I've said before, bringing in change and managing it is a very tricky and hard thing to accomplish ... you have to make "opinion makers" and then those opinion makers have to disperse your message through a medium which your target audience trusts and understands ... right now ... we just have a message ... a message in form of a documentary that neither you nor I have watched ... forget a medium or dispersion efforts ...

 

[waleed3601]

Like I've said before, bringing in change and managing it is a very tricky and hard thing to accomplish ... you have to make "opinion makers" and then those opinion makers have to disperse your message through a medium which your target audience trusts and understands ... right now ... we just have a message ... a message in form of a documentary that neither you nor I have watched ... forget a medium or dispersion efforts ...

there is no market audience for a documentary..those are made for anyone and everyone to watch. the problem is pakistanis wont watch it because as ive said before we don't like looking at ourselves realistically.
and as far as i know no such opinion makers exist in pakistan (i also dont quite understand what you mean here by 'disperse your message through a medium which your target audience trusts'), so in that case movie makers are better options than having no one to raise such problems at all. even if nothing gets done, we already have a stepping stone towards success, because if the movie wasn't made, the issue wouldn't've been discussed; but it is being discussed now because of the movie.

 

[humpervez]

It is very necessary for our people to be educated about the difference of religion, tradition and customs. Somehow this all has become a gross amalgamation and causes much trouble for women in such areas. Unless documentaries like these won't highlight such issues, the progress for educating them would never be pursued.