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Murder, not honour

If we are worried about image of Pakistan, why not to solve these issues at first place?
Fake postive image building is not viable solution. Accept these issues and try to solve them. Come up
With your chest out and address the world with your head straight.
These issues are all over the world USA is biggest market of kidnapped girls sold for prostitution How many you hear CNN and BBC chest beating about it ? Chest beating in the world won't solve the issue
 
-The first part in solving a problem is recognizing it ... Agreed

Now all we have to do is see, if the problem is being recognized by the people who should recognize it and figure out a solution i.e the Pakistani people.
The answer to that would be .... a resounding NO ... the target audience of this film is the west, being released in the US etc. ... and it has been nominated for another Oscar I suppose ... So basically what's happening is the portrayal of a problem in Pakistan in a documentary movie with a western audience ... what good will it do except for making a couple articles before hand about "sparking a debate" and when it wins the Oscar, they'll be a debate about a month about it ...

It's funny, how people can make money and fame out of the portrayal of problems in the third world, and for some reason when they go on rants about how they are working for "betterment of the society" their target audience is always the same i.e the West.
So how will there be a change if your not even targeting your message to the people who have that problem in their society ??

Lastly, I must comment on how great the Oscar selection is ... I remember the documentary by Jamima Khan, which was about Drones etc. but I guess, a documentary showing how innocents were killed in such strikes etc. where the fault lies with the west is ... well, not acceptable for the platform of the Oscars ...
 
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a guardian.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1101); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel(1893).

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1102), classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel (1840).

@Ammara Chaudhry
Please quote me Quranic verse if there is hadith there must be Quranic verse also because all the (Valid) hadiths only explain Quranic verses.
 
These issues are all over the world USA is biggest market of kidnapped girls sold for prostitution How many you hear CNN and BBC chest beating about it ? Chest beating in the world won't solve the issue

I agree with your first part of the argument.
If there is something wrong all over the world, then it is fine?
No sir.
As I already stated , we cannot solve any problem without recognising it.
We need to move forward from this debate. It is not easy to change the ground realities. But it is not impossible.
Legislation and implementation of rule of law is the way forward.
 
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a guardian.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1101); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel(1893).

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1102), classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel (1840).

@Ammara Chaudhry

Khansa Bint Khidam said “My father married me to his nephew, and I did not like this match, so I complained to the Messenger of Allah (May Allah bless him and grant him peace). He said to me “accept what your father has arranged.” I said “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.”

He said “then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” I said “I have accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fathul Bari Sharah Al Bukhari 9/194, Ibn Majah Kitabun Nikah 1/602)


What about this? Yes this nikah is batil, but forced marriages have no place in Islam. Unfortunately, parents do not understand their kids and kids are immature enough to take a step to leave their family and go for court marriages. Parents hold on to the responsibility, either they need to let their kids marry where they wish or convince them with facts to marry where parents want.

Islam is very balance religion.
 
I repeat

Neutron said: ↑If we are worried about image of Pakistan, why not to solve these issues at first place?Fake postive image building is not viable solution. Accept these issues and try to solve them. Come upWith your chest out and address the world with your head straight.Source: Murder, not honour | Page 2

-The first part in solving a problem is recognizing it ... Agreed

Now all we have to do is see, if the problem is being recognized by the people who should recognize it and figure out a solution i.e the Pakistani people.
The answer to that would be .... a resounding NO ... the target audience of this film is the west, being released in the US etc. ... and it has been nominated for another Oscar I suppose ... So basically what's happening is the portrayal of a problem in Pakistan in a documentary movie with a western audience ... what good will it do except for making a couple articles before hand about "sparking a debate" and when it wins the Oscar, they'll be a debate about a month about it ...

It's funny, how people can make money and fame out of the portrayal of problems in the third world, and for some reason when they go on rants about how they are working for "betterment of the society" their target audience is always the same i.e the West.
So how will there be a change if your not even targeting your message to the people who have that problem in their society ??

Lastly, I must comment on how great the Oscar selection is ... I remember the documentary by Jamima Khan, which was about Drones etc. but I guess, a documentary showing how innocents were killed in such strikes etc. where the fault lies with the west is ... well, not acceptable for the platform of the Oscars ...
 
I repeat

Neutron said: ↑If we are worried about image of Pakistan, why not to solve these issues at first place?Fake postive image building is not viable solution. Accept these issues and try to solve them. Come upWith your chest out and address the world with your head straight.Source: Murder, not honour | Page 2

Im not even arguing with that ...and I'm certainly not for "fake positive image building" ... bottom line is problems need to be solved and recognizing a problem is indeed the first step to arrive at a possible solution ....

My contention is simply with people like this film maker that are supposedly there to "make a difference" and yet the only noticeable difference is in their bank accounts or their recognition ...


Most of the time honor killing is to cover up the sins of the men.

and what proof do we have to base that on ? I mean if a couple is "running away" they are probably doing it together .... It's just a lot easier to put all the blame on men since men are used to it and it is politically acceptable ...
 
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Im not even arguing with that ...and I'm certainly not for "fake positive image building" ... bottom line is problems need to be solved and recognizing a problem is indeed the first step to arrive at a possible solution ....

My contention is simply with people like this film maker that are supposedly there to "make a difference" and yet the only noticeable difference is in their bank accounts or their recognition ...




and what proof do we have to base that on ? I mean if a couple is "running away" they are probably doing it together .... It's just a lot easier to put all the blame on men since men are used to it and it is politically acceptable ...

From what I understand, the essence of honour killing is the ego of parents. They feel they have control over another human being (their child), however, when their children come of age and step into adulthood, their obligations end. They are no longer the guardians of another adult. Whatever parenting they have done till that point is all that they could do. If their child chooses a partner who is right for them, then they have succeeded in raising them. In not, well, there's nothing you can do now that you couldn't do when they were being raised by you.
As adults, the most a parent can do is advise them, definitely not force or compel them. They are now adults and responsible for their own actions and lives.
 
Please quote me Quranic verse if there is hadith there must be Quranic verse also because all the (Valid) hadiths only explain Quranic verses.
Where is method of Salat in Quran ? ALLAH has told in Quran what RASOOL SAW gives you take it and what he stops you from abstain from it. RASOOL SAW can also allow and forbid things and he has strictly forbidden Nikah without consent of Wali only if parents are non Muslims than their consent is not needed

Khansa Bint Khidam said “My father married me to his nephew, and I did not like this match, so I complained to the Messenger of Allah (May Allah bless him and grant him peace). He said to me “accept what your father has arranged.” I said “I do not wish to accept what my father has arranged.”

He said “then this marriage is invalid, go and marry whomever you wish.” I said “I have accepted what my father has arranged, but I wanted women to know that fathers have no right in their daughter’s matters (i.e. they have no right to force a marriage on them). (Fathul Bari Sharah Al Bukhari 9/194, Ibn Majah Kitabun Nikah 1/602)


What about this? Yes this nikah is batil, but forced marriages have no place in Islam. Unfortunately, parents do not understand their kids and kids are immature enough to take a step to leave their family and go for court marriages. Parents hold on to the responsibility, either they need to let their kids marry where they wish or convince them with facts to marry where parents want.

Islam is very balance religion.
Both is needed running away from isn't allowed at all. Yes still Nikah was performed and when she approached RASOOL SAW Nikah was terminated. Running away from home is not allowed at all. On the other hand if a man finds his wife cheating still he can't take law in his own hands either he has to bring 4 witnesses or divorce wife. He can't kill his wife it would be creating fasad on earth
 
Where is method of Salat in Quran ? ALLAH has told in Quran what RASOOL SAW gives you take it and what he stops you from abstain from it. RASOOL SAW can also allow and forbid things and he has strictly forbidden Nikah without consent of Wali only if parents are non Muslims than their consent is not needed
If you read my post you will get the answer I clearly mentioned that every sahih hadith explain Quranic verses like Salaat, inheritance and many other things and those Hadiths which we can't find any source from Quran Allah knows better we should avoid to quote. example hadith explaining arrival of Mahdi but not a single verse in Quran about the topic and Mahdi concept brings many splits and off shots in muslims still today many claims to be Mahdi.
 
If you read my post you will get the answer I clearly mentioned that every sahih hadith explain Quranic verses like Salaat, inheritance and many other things and those Hadiths which we can't find any source from Quran Allah knows better we should avoid to quote. example hadith explaining arrival of Mahdi but not a single verse in Quran about the topic and Mahdi concept brings many splits and off shots in muslims still today many claims to be Mahdi.
Sorry they have to be quoted Quran and Sunnah are both source of laws and legislation in Islam
 
Sorry they have to be quoted Quran and Sunnah are both source of laws and legislation in Islam
Yes off course but all the hadiths which we can find source from Quran and Hadith explaining it.
 
Lady Sharmeen is trying to please west and old way of doing that is to bash Islam and Pakistan.

i consider "honor killings" as murder too, so do i too want to please "the west" and want to bash islam??

i believe that "honor killings" are a south asian disease that spread to some other parts of the world.

As for honor killings that has to be condemned but it's impossible to eliminate unless we address issue of running away from homes.

they run away because the parents are against the wishes of their children... now, why should the parents go against their childrens' wishes??

as for those mentioning islam, below is from my recent thread[1]...
The cornerstone of a Muslim marriage is consent, ejab-o-qubul (proposal and acceptance) and requires the bride to accept the marriage proposal on her own free will. This freedom to consent (or refuse), which was given to Muslim women 1,400 years ago, is still not available under Hindu law since sacramental rituals such as saptapadi and kanya dan (seven steps round the nuptial fire and gifting of the bride to the groom) still form essential ceremonies of a Hindu marriage. Even after the codification of Hindu law, the notion of consent is not built into the marriage ceremonies.

The contract of marriage (nikahnama) allows for negotiated terms and conditions, it can also include the right to a delegated divorce (talaq-e-tafweez) where the woman is delegated the right to divorce her husband if any of the negotiated terms and conditions are violated.
When we examine marriage laws in their historic context, it is interesting to note that the universally accepted notion that marriages are contractual rather than sacramental originates in Muslim law, which was accepted by the French law only in the 1800s and incorporated into the English law in the 1850s and became part of codified Hindu law as late as 1955. Today it appears to be the most practical way of dealing with the institution of marriage. Treating marriage as a sacrament which binds the parties for life has resulted in some of the most discriminatory practices against women such as sati and denial of right to divorce and remarriage, even in the most adverse conditions.


the article is written by a christian lady but most south asian muslims, especially the hadith-quoting types, don't know of true islam...
In fact, as a Christian marrying a Muslim, I chose to marry under the Muslim personal law, even over the seemingly modern Special Marriage Act, 1954, to better secure my economic rights. My mehr was a house in my name and my nikahnama includes necessary clauses to safeguard my and my children’s rights. My husband’s family members were witness to this document, which is registered and enforceable by law.


---

[1] prenups in indian weddings and islam
 
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Both is needed running away from isn't allowed at all. Yes still Nikah was performed and when she approached RASOOL SAW Nikah was terminated. Running away from home is not allowed at all. On the other hand if a man finds his wife cheating still he can't take law in his own hands either he has to bring 4 witnesses or divorce wife. He can't kill his wife it would be creating fasad on earth

Sir you are mainly focusing on eloping. I totally agree with you, it should not be done and Nikah will not be valid. We also need to focus on the rights Islam give to children for choosing the life partner. Mostly, girls are victim in this case. They are forced to marriage where their parents want. Not necessarily every girl is in relationship and that's the reason for her to reject the proposal. In most of the cases, she's not involved with anyone but also doesn't like the proposal. Islam is giving this right to her. She can reject it. Parents need to understand it. Otherwise she will take a wrong step. Either she will end up leaving the home or marrying with no good intentions.

and what proof do we have to base that on ? I mean if a couple is "running away" they are probably doing it together .... It's just a lot easier to put all the blame on men since men are used to it and it is politically acceptable ...

Honor killing is not just about a couple running away. there's more to it.
 
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no marriage except with a guardian.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1101); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel(1893).

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Any woman who gets married without the permission of her guardian, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid, her marriage is invalid.” Narrated by al-Tirmidhi (1102), classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Irwa’ al-Ghaleel (1840).

@Ammara Chaudhry
If i'm not wrong.. in Prophet(SAWW) life there was one woman came to the prophet(SAWW) and said that her parents had got her married with a man which she doesnot want to marry. and in a next moment Prophet (SAWW) broke the marriage..

ANOTHER Oscar nod for Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy; another moment of introspection for Pakistan. Four years ago, Chinoy’s award-winning documentary on acid attacks inspired parliamentary and media debate on the issue and revived activism against the heinous practice. It also sparked new conversations about the growing role of Pakistani women as national icons, and the fragility of our national identity, which takes criticism of even the most heinous practices to be a form of treachery if it is for a Western audience.

Now A Girl in the River: The Price of Forgiveness has stirred a fresh debate. Chinoy’s film about a rare survivor of an ‘honour’ killing was nominated last week. While congratulating the filmmaker, the prime minister vowed to do no less than eradicate the ‘evil’ practice. If Chinoy goes on to win the award, he may have to, at a minimum, raise the issue in a parliamentary session.

I have not yet seen the film, but there can be no doubt about the urgency of its subject matter. The Aurat Foundation estimates that around 1,000 women in Pakistan are killed annually in the name of ‘honour’. These numbers are likely underestimates. And they are rising. According to the Human Rights Commission, the number of ‘honour’ killings jumped 15pc between 2013 and 2014, when 1,005 cases were reported. Men are also victims of ‘honour’ killing, but the incidence of this is far less frequent.

Attitudes towards ‘honour’ killings stubbornly persist.
The increase in the number of ‘honour’ killings reflects an improvement in reporting as national and regional media outlets infiltrate even the most remote rural areas of Pakistan, and stringers are increasingly aware of women’s rights. But it also reflects the changing times.

Pakistani women are more educated, have greater exposure to global political and cultural norms, and increased access to technology, including mobile phones. Formerly rural areas are becoming urbanised, leading to greater flows of people and goods through once isolated areas. Women in cities are increasingly working outside the home. These societal changes mean that women have wider networks of acquaintances, independent resources, opportunities to make choices — and so more ways to offend their families’ ‘honour’.

Despite the rapid social transition, attitudes towards ‘honour’ killings — including the widespread notion that the practice is part of our culture — stubbornly persist. We are simply not as alarmed as we should be by the level of support for the practice. According to a 2013 Pew Research Centre poll, 84pc of Pakistanis wanted Sharia law as the country’s official law, and 89pc among that percentage said that adulterers should be stoned to death.

My family recently helped a man locate his daughter after she eloped. He explained that he was under great pressure to take action against his daughter to defend his ‘honour’. Other men in his village warned him that he would be cut off from the community, his family members ostracised and denied access to communal resources if he didn’t take serious action. No one wanted their daughters getting the wrong ideas about what was permissible if his was able to get away with an elopement.

If the prime minister wants to eradicate ‘honour’ killings, these are the attitudes he must confront. A good start would be to stop referring to the practice as ‘honour’ killing and start calling it murder. Under our penal code, the crime is treated as a murder, but in everyday practice, moral distinctions are drawn, against which quotation marks are a poor defence. Changing the language around an issue can help to change attitudes as those who are now esteemed for upholding their family or community’s honour would be reframed as base murderers.

By talking about murder, we can also shift the conversation about ‘honour’ killings away from an outdated and inappropriate one about indigenous values to a more pragmatic one about the failings of civilian law-enforcement and our criminal justice system. The murder of women on supposedly moral grounds continues because punitive action against their killers has been weak. Police fail to apprehend killers — and sometimes even collude with them — and enable parallel forms of justice, like jirgas. They also fail to check the flow of guns and acid used to attack women. Courts, meanwhile, fail to prosecute killers for lack of evidence, or as laws that allow for easy pardons see many going free.

One hopes Chinoy’s nomination will get the Anti-Honour Killing Laws (Criminal Laws Amendment) Bill 2015 back in parliament. The bill, which lapsed in October, seeks amendments to the Pakistan Penal Code and the Code of Criminal Procedure to remove loopholes that allow killers to get off scot-free. But new laws can only do so much in the face of old ideas. To really eradicate the practice, we have to redefine our notions of what is honourable.

Published in Dawn, January 18th, 2016.

@Zibago @Mr.Meap @DesertFox97 @MaarKhoor

a fact is that honor killing is not related to Islam but it is related to society and culture... we have hindus culture mostly
 

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