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But again, you are avoiding the important part. How were they able to get into indian waters to the point that they were able to kill the fishermen? I am willing to buy the whole story that indians have put forward except this part and few others, this part being the most important. We may not be that far apart but they would have to be in indian waters for 2 straight days.

it was a failure on the part of the indian intelligence and failure of India's maritime security... thats just it...
even border is secured and in a much much much more better manner than the coastal waters...still there is infiltration...? that does not mean India is first sending them across border and than asking them to infiltrate..or does it..????? NO it does not....

if the highly secured indo-pak border can be infiltrated than surely the far from satisfactory coastal security at that time(now it is being improved) can surely be breached......

u must be able to differentiate between commom fisherman unknowingly getting into indian waters and getting caught... and some highly trained terrorists deliberately finding out the loopholes in not so full proof maritime security and taking advantage of them....

the point is that innocent fisherman who have no idea about security features get caught easily..... but the terrorists who came were not simple ppl... they were highly trained ppl... they examined everything carefully and took advantage of the loopholes in the indian maritime security... nothing is fool proof.... and they took advantage of it... that is why govt of India is now making all out efforts to improve coastal security which is a step in the right direction......

the terrorsist have been convicted in Pakistan... i dont think pak judiciary will prosecute innocents...

Kasab's father himself accepted his son... no father can fall so low so as to call his own son as terrorist without it being a reality.....

i hope u now understand that coastal security was not full proof so that it cannot be breached by well trained terrorists, who found out all the loopholes in the security and took advantage of them.....
 
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But again, you are avoiding the important part. How were they able to get into indian waters to the point that they were able to kill the fishermen? I am willing to buy the whole story that indians have put forward except this part and few others, this part being the most important. We may not be that far apart but they would have to be in indian waters for 2 straight days.

Buddy the sea border between our countries is very big and Indian navy nor Pakistan navy cannot guard the entire area..The fisher men who were captured by both navies will only be the 1/10 th who cross the border there are lot of smuggling also going on between our countrymen through these channels..Its a known fact that no navy can guard the entire water of a country..For eg US has the most sophisticated gadgets than any one in the world but they were not able to stop the illegal immigrants coming from Cuba and other Latin American countries and also from Asia through water..Hope you get a general idea...Another example is Somalian pirates navies all over the world now tries to stop them then also they got success in capturing ships and taking them hostages ...
 
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Brother i guess you didn't bother reading the post and the questions of Kavita, confusingly reporting an information is something else and vest disappearing and showing a different body, blood disappearing etc are two completely different things so at least someone tried answering the questions unlike the fellow country men .... I will be really happy to see some more mature arguments being put forward instead of pics being posted, in reply to Kavita's questions and the interview of Amaresh Misra

Radio: Amaresh Misra & Ahmed Quraishi on Chicago?s ABN Radio Pak Alert Press

:cheers:



Buddy i also see that footage Karkare was wearing a bullet proof jacket and helmet but only after that the shoot out in Cama happened and they went there and on the way they got ambushed..I saw his body been carried away but i am not sure that they were saffron men but footage was unable to show his face so we are not sure where he was hit..After he got killed the IBN began to show the footage of Karkares last moment wearing helmet and bullet proof west because its the last thing they recorded about Karkare vest disappearing has more to do with utter chaos happened in the hospital and with the police because of lots of injured and dead people coming to the hospital..No body can concentrate on one person..Another possibility is that there is a scam about buying those low standard vest and it will result in the punishment of some persons ..They may be responsible for the disappearance of the vest
 
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Generally, I am impressed by Zaid Hamid, but this time he is off the mark.
 
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Buddy i also see that footage Karkare was wearing a bullet proof jacket and helmet but only after that the shoot out in Cama happened and they went there and on the way they got ambushed..I saw his body been carried away but i am not sure that they were saffron men but footage was unable to show his face so we are not sure where he was hit..After he got killed the IBN began to show the footage of Karkares last moment wearing helmet and bullet proof west because its the last thing they recorded about Karkare vest disappearing has more to do with utter chaos happened in the hospital and with the police because of lots of injured and dead people coming to the hospital..No body can concentrate on one person..Another possibility is that there is a scam about buying those low standard vest and it will result in the punishment of some persons ..They may be responsible for the disappearance of the vest

everything happened because of chaos and what was that .... low standard vest removed because of a possibility of punishment :rofl:

Thats the best i've heard so far ...

You people are made to look at things through the indian eye... no offense but your media is off the hook and we saw that during the mumbai attack... absolutely absurd ... every reporter was better then James bond and the best was the animated boats and what was that baba rehman :rofl::rofl:

Anyhow there is no point accusing someone who has confessed to a failure
 
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Fair arguments put forward.

I do not buy the argument that the sea was not fully secured. There are some 20 radars that India has to monitor the area. Why is the fishermen getting caught is significant is because anyone getting into the area even for a short amount of time gets captured. Now it's a fair argument that fishermen do not know where they are as compared to these terrorists, but that's avoiding my previous sentence. Securing land area is in fact tougher because there are no radars to catch people crossing. The US and Somalia comparison is apples and organes comparison. US faces no serious threat from illegal immigrants. You can bet your life that they wouldn't be able to cross into their waters if US was really serious about that. Somalian pirates are in their own waters and there are only a handful ships in that area. Moreover, the military ships only seem to attack the pirates when they are attacked by the pirates.

Perhaps I should make it clear as to what I am suggesting. I do not think that breaching the security is impossible - I would definitely call it highly improbable however. I am buying the story as of right now, but only reluctantly. It's just something that seems hard to believe.
 
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everything happened because of chaos and what was that .... low standard vest removed because of a possibility of punishment :rofl:

Thats the best i've heard so far ...

You people are made to look at things through the indian eye... no offense but your media is off the hook and we saw that during the mumbai attack... absolutely absurd ... every reporter was better then James bond and the best was the animated boats and what was that baba rehman :rofl::rofl:

Anyhow there is no point accusing someone who has confessed to a failure

:disagree::disagree: i said its a possible scenario..But i know even if any kind of points i put forward you wont accept it..Its not through Indian eye..It was a possibility ..I cant believe you guys still think it was done by Indian agencies even after your government accepted that they were Pakistani nationals and your court Indict the master mind..so is that true that you see in Zaid Hamid'S eyes??
 
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Posting pics is the best you can do ?

Maybe they don't have anything else to say ....

Posting picts or something that would put things off topic
is one of thier games.

THey are trying to avoid the truth by t answering yours because they know the Truth hurts.
 
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Fair arguments put forward.

I do not buy the argument that the sea was not fully secured. There are some 20 radars that India has to monitor the area. Why is the fishermen getting caught is significant is because anyone getting into the area even for a short amount of time gets captured. Now it's a fair argument that fishermen do not know where they are as compared to these terrorists, but that's avoiding my previous sentence. Securing land area is in fact tougher because there are no radars to catch people crossing. The US and Somalia comparison is apples and organes comparison. US faces no serious threat from illegal immigrants. You can bet your life that they wouldn't be able to cross into their waters if US was really serious about that. Somalian pirates are in their own waters and there are only a handful ships in that area. Moreover, the military ships only seem to attack the pirates when they are attacked by the pirates.

Perhaps I should make it clear as to what I am suggesting. I do not think that breaching the security is impossible - I would definitely call it highly improbable however. I am buying the story as of right now, but only reluctantly. It's just something that seems hard to believe.


First of all it was a first of a kind..Before that all the incursions were done from the land and not from the see ..it makes our security personal off guard and i don't know whether there is 20 radars in that area so i am not commenting on that..but securing in a sea area i don't think its easy than that of a land..we can put sensors and all kind of stuffs to reduce infiltration in land i don't know its possible in sea..And also you have to notice that the relation between our countries were normal so the Navy nor coast guard was on high alert..

I compare US and Somalian pirates because to show you that even if with advanced technology Navies cant guard every inch of their territory..
 
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Brother majority of the people blowing themselves up in pakistan are also pakistanis, but that doesn't mean the government is involved.
Finding out the nationality of the person firing the bullet is not important its about tracing the financier... how is it possible that such a big terrorist act was conducted without the help of insiders.
There are reports of US intelligence agencies warning the indian authorities, but what was done in this regard.
When you say these people just slipped into India and the Navy was unable to track them, do you know what kind of surveillance systems are used in your country the latest AWACS being used can even point out the weapons being carried by the fighter jets at Pakistani Air Force bases.

An event of this scale is absolutely not possible without the help of locals.
 
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Pakistan did not had any survailence on waters we need those Orions soon , and also AWACS once we have it then we can debate things
 
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Brother majority of the people blowing themselves up in pakistan are also pakistanis, but that doesn't mean the government is involved.
Finding out the nationality of the person firing the bullet is not important its about tracing the financier... how is it possible that such a big terrorist act was conducted without the help of insiders.
There are reports of US intelligence agencies warning the Indian authorities, but what was done in this regard.
When you say these people just slipped into India and the Navy was unable to track them, do you know what kind of surveillance systems are used in your country the latest AWACS being used can even point out the weapons being carried by the fighter jets at Pakistani Air Force bases.

An event of this scale is absolutely not possible without the help of locals.

Brother AWACs was Inducted only recently and that too only one :disagree: This is why i give you example of USA.See how many AWACS and all kind of gadgets they have..Why cant they stop illegal immigrants and drugs flowing from other countries?? As i said no navy can safe guard the entire sea lanes of a nations..
 
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DAWN.COM | Columnists | Mumbai?s winners and losers

AS I write this, it is one year to the day since the terrorist atrocity in Mumbai. I watched the city’s three-day ordeal with fascination and horror in Sri Lanka on various news channels.

A year later, perhaps we can look back on the attack with a greater degree of objectivity, and count the winners and the losers.

The real winners, of course, are militant groups, like the Lashkar-i-Taiba, and their shadowy backers in Pakistan. They have achieved what they set out to do: sabotage the peace talks between India and Pakistan. Although these negotiations had not achieved a breakthrough, they had greatly improved relations between India and Pakistan.

The second prize goes to the security establishments in both countries, although this is truer of Pakistan than it is of India where the military is firmly under civilian control. The reality is that soldiers and spies need enemies to justify their lavish budgets. Peace between traditional enemies means cuts in defence, and less toys for the boys.

Obviously, the biggest losers are the victims of the attack, and their friends and families. But the other big losers are the people of the subcontinent. Millions in the region will continue suffering, just because their leaders remain locked in a 60-year old conflict. And when there was a glimmer of hope of some kind of resolution, relations have plunged to a new low.

The militants’ victory is not restricted to poisoning bilateral relations between India and Pakistan: by hitting Mumbai, it has ensured that there will be no cooperation between the two countries in the war against extremism in the foreseeable future.

This is no small victory. The war being waged on the Pak-Afghan border is perhaps the most decisive conflict of our times, and its outcome will affect the region for years to come. In order to combat the Taliban and their various partners effectively, active cooperation between India and Pakistan is crucial.

After the Mumbai attack, India has refused to pursue peace talks, arguing that as long as Pakistan tolerates the presence of terrorist organisations on its soil, there can be no meaningful negotiations. Again and again, the Indian leadership and media have echoed the mantra of Pakistan ‘not doing enough’ against the planners of the Mumbai attack.

In several articles, I have argued that it is precisely because of the atrocity that peace talks need to be pursued with greater focus and political will. Does India really want to hand a major victory to the perpetrators of the attack?

I have also suggested that in order to reassure the Pakistani military that it has nothing to fear on its eastern border, India could easily withdraw one of its divisions deployed there. This would encourage Pakistan to transfer more troops to its northwest where the real battle against extremists is now going on.

Each time I have written along these lines, I have been flooded with emails from India readers, blasting me for daring to make such a suggestion. According to them, Pakistan does not merit such a gesture because it is harbouring terrorists, and because it has long followed policies hostile to India. And for these reasons, they are also against the resumption of peace talks.

They miss the point that one negotiates with one’s adversaries, not one’s friends. And they have the bizarre notion that peace is a reward for good behaviour, not a mutual need. The fact is that India needs peace just as much as Pakistan does. True, it is Pakistan that is currently being battered by an unrelenting wave of terrorism. But a Pakistan destabilised by extremist violence should be New Delhi’s worst nightmare.

Those who think a victorious Taliban would stop their mayhem on Pakistan’s eastern border are living in cloud-cuckoo land. These thugs have no respect for international boundaries, and have repeatedly declared their intention to ‘liberate’ Kashmir. Many of them also want to re-establish Muslim rule over India. These insane goals will ensure that terrorist groups will go on trying to hit Indian targets.

Another reason for India to pursue talks is that as a major regional and global player, the last thing it needs is continuing tension on its borders. When in 2001, a terrorist attack on the Indian parliament caused tensions to rise sharply, a number of multinationals withdrew their executives from India. The bottom line is that the threat of a nuclear exchange is not good for business.

Clearly, then, it should be in India’s interest to support the peace process, irrespective of the attempts made by terrorists to derail it. Indeed, the bloody events of a year ago should act as a spur — not as a reason to suspend negotiations.

In a recent interview in the United States, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh made the point that his government did not know who to speak to in Pakistan. While there is some validity to this observation, it is equally true that there is now an unprecedented desire for peace with India across the political spectrum in Pakistan. This goal is shared by the army leadership. Gen Musharraf genuinely did his best to work out a lasting solution to the Kashmir conflict.

Now, the defence establishment does not need India to justify its budget, given that the whole country views the Taliban as the real foe. It also realises that an armed conflict with India would be suicidal. Both the ruling PPP and the main opposition parties support peace with India.

Unlike in the past, when the real resistance to normalisation came from jingoistic groups as well as the army in Pakistan, it now seems that the stumbling block lies in India. Buoyed by years of rapid development and military expansion, many Indians feel their country no longer needs to consider their smaller neighbour a threat. This is a short-term assessment that ignores the dangers of asymmetrical warfare, and the horrors of terrorism.

India, as the more powerful nation, can afford to make peaceful gestures without endangering its security. The question is whether its economic and military strength have made it self-confident enough to reach out to its deeply troubled neighbour.

Judging from the hysterical coverage of last year’s attack on NDTV — the only Indian channel available to me in Sri Lanka — I fear that both the media and the political leadership will continue gloating over Pakistan’s woes. But while a little schadenfreude, or pleasure over somebody else’s discomfort, is understandable, it is not in India’s long-term interest.
 
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The Hindu : Opinion / Op-Ed : Pakistan: two questions, multiple realities
Nirupama Subramanian
A year after the Mumbai attacks, two questions have persisted: was the Inter-Services Intelligence or any other “elements” of the Pakistani state complicit in the attacks? If the ISI, which nurtured the Lashkar-e-Taiba to wage a proxy war in India, has cut itself off from the group as claimed and was not involved in the attack, what stops Pakistan from cracking down effectively on it?

There are no certain replies to these questions, only multiple realities, and how each side perceives and interprets them.

In the weeks after the attacks, the Pakistan government, under immense international pressure and scrutiny, took several steps. A raid on a Lashkar camp at Muzaffarabad led to the arrest of commander Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi. This is possibly also where Abdul Wajid, whose alias has been shown as Zarar Shah, was picked up. Both are the alleged masterminds of the attacks.

Next, it placed Hafiz Saeed, LeT founder and leader of its front organisation, Jamat-ud-dawa, under house arrest. It also detained some 70 JuD activists across the country. In Punjab and the North-West Frontier Province, the government sealed some JuD offices. This came after the designation of the JuD and Hafiz Saeed by the Al Qaeda/Taliban sanctions committee of the U.N. Security Council.

The Punjab government took over the administration of the Muridke campus of the JuD, located 45 km from Lahore, to keep operational some of the welfare activities started by the group.

The government also launched an investigation into the planning of the Mumbai attacks in Pakistan. The probe named the LeT as the group behind the attack. The government made multiple arrests, registered a case and put seven people, including Lakhvi and Abdul Wajid, on trial.

Analysts and officials in Pakistan feel that all this only goes to show that no state “elements” could have been involved in the Mumbai attacks. The government could not have taken any of these actions without the consent of the ISI and the Army. Even the investigation by the Federal Investigating Agency, they say, would not have been possible, but for the assistance provided by intelligence agencies.

There is a real worry within the military and the intelligence agencies, these analysts say, that if there is another attack of a similar nature in India, it could trigger an India-Pakistan at a time when its forces are tied up battling the Taliban on the western borders. This, they say, is a “nightmare scenario” that the Pakistani authorities are trying their best to avoid.

‘Strategic asset’

“Some corners of the establishment may still hold the view that the LeT can be used as a ‘strategic asset,’ but there is a lot of internal thinking on this, lots of questions are being asked internally about this. My information is that in the majority view, they are now seen more as a liability,” said Amir Rana, author of A-Z of Jihad, and head of the Pakistan Institute of Peace Studies.

But the government’s reluctance to go all the way against the LeT is all too obvious. After six months of house arrest, Hafiz Saeed is a free man, and the government says it cannot act against him unless New Delhi provides “concrete evidence” linking him to the Mumbai attacks. Saeed does keep a lower profile than before, but still leads the Friday prayers at the JuD’s headquarters, Jamia Al Qudsia, at Chaudburji in Lahore.

All the others JuD activists have been released. The organisation has not yet been banned, but now operates under the name of Falah-i-Insaniyat and was noticed in relief operations among the internally displaced from the Swat Valley during the military operations there.

As the arrests of David Headley and Tahawwur Hussain Rana in the U.S. have shown, the LeT also retains operational capabilities. The two men are said to have been in communication with an unnamed LeT operative, and though they were arrested for an alleged terror plot against a Danish newspaper, they were also said to be planning an attack on the National Defence College in New Delhi.

Further, the arrest of a former Major for his links with Headley and Rana are bound to raise questions on the LeT’s continuing links, if not with the military as an institution, but with sections within it, especially because the Major retired only two years ago.

After the attack on the General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, the Pakistan military acknowledged, for the first time, that the Pakistani Taliban, which it is battling, had found allies among the Punjab-based jihadi groups — known as anti-India groups, or ‘Kashmiri’ groups that came up with state backing — to carry out terrorist strikes in the heartland of Pakistan.

It is now accepted within the military that Al Qaeda, the Taliban and their allies among the Punjabi jihadis operate as a syndicate. But while the military has included the Jaish-e-Mohammed, along with Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and the Sipah-e-Sahaba, in this syndicate, the Laskhar-e-Taiba is still not considered part of it.

In a background briefing for journalists last month, senior military officials warned against India’s “propaganda” of trying to conflate the LeT with Al Qaeda “for its own ends”.

Even with the Jaish, the extent of the rupture with the establishment is unclear. In a briefing after the GHQ attacks, the military spokesman said it was “splinter groups” and “individuals” who had broken away from the main group and joined up with the Taliban. The implication seemed to be that there was no problem yet with the main group.

Indeed, an October 16 report in The News, which was not denied or contradicted yet, said the military flew down the leadership of the Jaish-e-Mohammed and the Sipah-e-Sahaba to negotiate with the GHQ attackers during the siege. From the JeM, it was Mufti Abdul Rauf, the younger brother of Maulana Masood Azhar and acting Ameer of the group. But jihad-watchers in Pakistan say there are good reasons for the reluctance to go all out against the Punjab-based jihad groups.

Especially with the LeT, one reason widely cited is that the security establishment does not want to risk a backlash from a group that has refrained thus far from anti-Pakistan activities and is still seen as closest to the establishment. The JuD has a network that reaches deep into every tehsil of Punjab, and the military does not want to be forced into opening yet another front in the country’s most stable, prosperous and politically important province.

Arresting Hafiz Saeed is also seen as out of question. It is claimed that it would lead to factionalism within the JuD, and the creation of hard to control “rogue” or splinter groups. In fact, Saeed’s hold over the organisation is already said to have weakened from the time of the 2002 ban on LeT. Even the Mumbai attacks are held to be the handiwork of a “rogue” group.

Plus, analysts say, India’s attitude since the Mumbai attacks has led to a corresponding hardening of anti-India attitudes here, not just within the establishment or government, but also among ordinary people, and any move against Hafiz Saeed or JuD/LeT could set off a political backlash about “appeasing India”.

It seems that the maximum that Pakistan is prepared to do to address Indian concerns is prosecute the seven men, including the LeT commander Lakhvi, who face trial for their suspected involvement in the Mumbai attacks. Those questions, though, will not go away.
 
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By Prachi Pinglay
BBC News, Mumbai

Hemant Karkare was killed early in the Mumbai attacks
The wife of a top police officer killed in the 2008 attacks in the Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay) has demanded an inquiry into his death.

Kavita Karkare said she had still not been told exactly how her husband died, a year after the attacks.


Anti-terrorism chief Hemant Karkare was killed along with two senior police officers outside the Cama hospital.

At least 174 people, including 14 policemen, died when 10 gunmen attacked sites in the city on 26 November 2008.

One of the gunmen was caught alive and is currently on trial. Nine others were killed.

Body armour questions

Mrs Karkare told reporters: "So far no senior officer has told me what exactly happened that night."

She said she had discovered her husband's bulletproof jacket was missing after she filed a freedom of information request two months ago.

"I also came to know that the file which had the date of purchase is also missing."

Mrs Karkare is demanding answers following media reports which have questioned the quality of bulletproof jackets used by the police.

The wife of another officer killed alongside Mr Karkare has filed a similar "right to information (RTI)" request to see police records.

Vinita Kamte said she needed the information to reconstruct the sequence of events which led to the death of her husband, Ashok, and other police officers.

Mrs Kamte said she had received several records and was waiting for some more.

"I am studying the records of calls made to the police control room. It is unfortunate that we have to apply to RTI to get information and speak to the media about it."

'Trauma'

Mrs Karkare said the policemen who died had been treated as martyrs. But she asked if candlelit marches and compensation were enough to forget what happened.

Many relatives of policemen who lost their lives were undergoing psychiatric treatment to cope with the trauma, she added.

Police commissioner D Sivanadhan told the BBC that an inquiry was being conducted and further details were awaited.

An independent inquiry has already criticised the Mumbai police for a lack of co-ordination in dealing with the attacks.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Mumbai hero's wife seeks inquiry
 
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