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Mumbai Attacks

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No surprise.:tup:

10 Terrorist from Pakistan killed about 180 people in Mumbai : No Surprise

Geo TV reached the village in Pakistan of one Terrorist Ajmal Kasab : No Surprise

Nawaz Shariff (former PM) admits Ajmal is Pakistani : No Surprise

Ajmal Kasab Father's recognised his son : No Surprise

Durani sacked for accepting Ajmal as Pakistani : No Surprise

Well now you surprised me........

No Regards

Dabloo
 
10 Terrorist from Pakistan killed about 180 people in Mumbai : No Surprise

Geo TV reached the village in Pakistan of one Terrorist Ajmal Kasab : No Surprise

Nawaz Shariff (former PM) admits Ajmal is Pakistani : No Surprise

Ajmal Kasab Father's recognised his son : No Surprise

Durani sacked for accepting Ajmal as Pakistani : No Surprise

Well now you surprised me........

No Regards

Dabloo

What was it then again??:undecided:
 
Far be it from me to break your state of stupor
So far its not been established that state actors are responsible for mumbai carnage and yes if non state actors are involved offcourse it will take time. Calm down . If your government shows quarter of seriousness with which you post here they may come up with better dossier than the beauty box we have recieved.
 
Ijaz Hussain

Why is the Indian government employing coercive diplomacy to achieve its objectives when it can easily sort out contentious issues through a joint investigation? The answer to this question is that a joint investigation, bilateral or multilateral, simply does not suit India

In the wake of the Mumbai mayhem, the Indian government has been making one demand after another. It started when, without producing any evidence, it asked the latter to accept the Pakistani nationality of Ajmal Kasab. The matter had hardly been sorted out when it came out with more demands. It now wants the Pakistani government to accept that the remaining nine terrorists are also Pakistanis, and to extradite their handlers to India for prosecution.

India has also upped the ante by accusing Pakistan’s intelligence agencies of being behind the Mumbai incident, and the Pakistan government of employing terrorism as an instrument of foreign policy. The Pakistani government on its part has asked for hard proof before it acts or has rejected the demands. More importantly, it has suggested joint investigation but India is not at all amenable to the idea.

Are the latest Indian demands and charges justified? What are the Indian motives in acting this way?

As far as the Indian demand that Pakistan should accept the Pakistani nationality of the remaining nine terrorists is concerned, it is reportedly based on the discovery of items like toothpaste, shaving cream, T-shirts, etc. with “Made in Pakistan” labels. This is no evidence at all as any court worth its name would throw it out.

Similarly, the argument that the American FBI has authenticated the Indian claim cannot be accepted for two reasons. First, the Americans have a vested interest in supporting India because they always wanted Pakistan to do more in the war against terror, and the present incident provides them with a golden opportunity to put pressure on it to do so. Second, the American agencies are not trustworthy as testified by the fact that the CIA (along with British intelligence) got it absolutely wrong on the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which provided a pretext to the Bush Administration for the 2003 invasion.

Incidentally, if the Indian government is wrong in demanding without hard evidence, the Pakistan government too is wrong in hiding behind India’s failure to provide the necessary evidence. It gives the impression as if the latter wants to run away from its obligations. This was the fallout of the Kasab case. Whether or not the Indian government provided it with hard evidence on Kasab’s nationality, it should have promptly investigated the matter on its own.

GEO TV and Dawn separately conducted investigations and discovered that Kasab was indeed a Pakistani. And they did so almost a month before the Pakistani government. Had the Pakistan government done so on its own and promptly, it would have earned global appreciation for its commitment to the fight against terrorism and would have also denied the Indian government the victory that it is now claiming in the matter. The best thing for the Pakistani government in the present situation is to conduct its own investigation into the nationality of the remaining terrorists rather than wait for hard evidence to emerge.

As far as the demand for extradition of the terrorists’ handlers is concerned, both international and regional laws tend to favour Pakistan. For example, extradition in international law normally takes place on the basis of a treaty, reciprocity or courtesy, which are absent in the present situation. Besides, the question of whether or not the individual for whose extradition request has been made is an “extraditable person” is also important because the individual to be extradited should be the national of the requesting state or of a third state but not that of the state to which the request is made. Since the terrorists’ handlers are supposedly Pakistanis, they are not “extraditable persons”. Hence Pakistan is not bound to extradite them.

At the regional level, the SAARC Terrorism Convention (1987) is not of much help to India either, because in the absence of an extradition treaty between the parties it leaves the question of extradition to the discretion of the requested state. That means that Pakistan will not accede to the Indian demand. If international and regional laws do not bind the Pakistan government to extradite terrorists’ handlers, it does not mean that it can let them go unpunished. It is under obligation to prosecute them under its own relevant national laws.

Regarding the Indian allegation of the involvement of Pakistani intelligence agencies, India justifies it on the ground that, “given the sophistication and military precision of the attack it must have had the support of some official agencies in Pakistan”. There are two problems with this line of argument.

First, it presumes Pakistan guilty and puts the onus on it to prove its innocence whereas the basic principle of law is the opposite. The Indian charge puts the law upside down. Second, the presumption on which the Indian line of argument is based, namely that non-state actors are incapable of mounting very sophisticated and precise operations is not valid. Consider 9/11 or some of the recent terrorist attacks in Pakistan, which were highly sophisticated and precise, and which were mounted by non-state actors. No wonder that the American ambassador to India has rebuked the Indian government on this count and advised it, “to be very very careful in making those kinds of allegations unless [there is] very concrete evidence to that degree of specificity”.

It is obvious from the above that the Indian demands are unreasonable and the Indian charge of Pakistan’s intelligence agencies’ involvement outrageous. To make Pakistan toe the Indian line, the Indian government has placed its troops close to Pakistan’s border (on the pretext of routine winter exercises) and its air force on forward bases. Besides, the Indian defence minister is mostly busy hurling threats of war by repeating the mantra of “all options on the table”. (It is amusing that after all this, Mr Mukherjee claims that Pakistan is whipping up war hysteria).

Why is the Indian government employing coercive diplomacy to achieve its objectives when it can easily sort out contentious issues through a joint investigation? The answer to this question is that a joint investigation, bilateral or multilateral, simply does not suit India, as among other things it would reveal the extent of local involvement in the terrorist attack. Consider the following.

It is amazing that a handful of terrorists kept the whole city hostage for sixty-two hours and struck at different places at will in addition to killing about two hundred people. This raises some serious questions.

If the terrorists came by sea, as India claims, how did they cover more than six hundred nautical miles undetected, particularly at a time when the Indian navy (and a blue navy at that) was engaged in exercises? Did they bring all the weaponry (which must be considerable) with them, and if so, how did they do it? How did they get these weapons inside the Taj without being detected?

These and a host of other questions lead to the conclusion that there must be a strong autochthon involvement in the Mumbai terrorist attack. If this is so, a joint investigation obviously does not suit the Indian government. That possibly explains why the Indian government is so keen on coercive diplomacy rather than a joint investigation.

The writer is a former dean of social sciences at the Quaid-i-Azam University. He can be reached at hussain_ijaz@hotmail.com
 

India’s Home Minister Mr P Chidambaram has reacted to Pakistan’s alleged refusal to respond to India’s demand for cooperation over the Mumbai attack by saying that New Delhi might consider snapping “all links” with Pakistan. He said on Monday that “Pakistan had provided nothing” and accused it of “doing nothing to assist India to bring to justice the perpetrators of the attacks”. Challenged on steps he would take if Pakistan did not comply, he said: “There are many, many links between India and Pakistan, and if Pakistan does not cooperate and does not help to bring the perpetrators to heel, those ties will become weaker and weaker and may one day snap. Why would we entertain Pakistani business people? Why would we entertain tourists in India? Why would we send tourists there?”

What is supposed to cause hardship is the embargo on tourism and visits by divided Muslim families. But far more dangerous than this would be the decision to stop communicating normally with each other. What happens between states when they break off formal diplomatic relations, often by withdrawing ambassadors and harassing the staff left behind, is well known. Tensions go up as the two try to outguess each other, followed by inflammatory statements by the leaders, usually resulting in concentration of troops on the border which then leads to accidental exchange of fire and minor skirmishes which can lead to bigger conflicts. South Asia has seen that happen before. Wars have been fought without much benefit to anyone, which the world sees as futile along with a growing number of South Asians who recommend a change of paradigm in Indo-Pak relations.

India’s post-Mumbai strategy has been flawed to the extent that it has progressively lost international support for its maximalist demands. Pakistan is not the world’s favourite in the current situation but India’s repeated reference to war in its “all options open” statements has cautioned the extra-regional powers against backing everything that India says. But such is the pressure of domestic politics months before the next general election that Indian leaders continue to flip-flop between “all options open” and “war no option”. Mr Chidambaram’s innovation of snapping relations is another effort to keep the pressure on Pakistan by indirectly threatening war. On the other hand, every time India does this, Pakistan’s otherwise weak position improves vis-à-vis world opinion.

Afghanistan’s President Hamid Karzai, visiting New Delhi, has talked about “the difficulty Kabul could face if Pakistan was distracted from its campaign against the Taliban because of tensions with New Delhi”. He could be voicing the American and European fear that an Indo-Pak conflagration could simply dismantle all efforts so far made to contain and eliminate world-threatening terrorism from the region. Threats also play into the hands of the hardliners in Pakistan who talk about giving a befitting reply to India. India needs international support to get Pakistan to do what it wants Pakistan to do. But it loses this support the moment it talks of starting hostilities. There is also a paradox involved in going the multilateral route. The countries India has to rely on to influence Pakistan have their own interests at stake too in the region and beyond. It is therefore not possible for India to get them to lean heavily on Pakistan to the exclusion of those interests.

So, while the world may have sided with India, it cannot bull in to “tame” Pakistan as desired by India. The situation is far too complex for that to happen. US President-elect Barack Obama has already talked about Kashmir as holding the key not only to peace between Pakistan and India but also success in the war on terror. That is a signal India has to heed if it wants the kind of cooperation that is obviously important for overall economic progress of the region. India has already handed over the dossier to Pakistan and some evidence has forced Pakistan to “own up” Ajmal Kasab. But after handing over the “dossier”, India should have waited for Pakistan’s response. The “theory” in New Delhi that Pakistan responds only to threats is all wrong. The truth is that every time India threatens Pakistan, the response from Islamabad is hostile. In consequence, a routinely conciliatory Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani has started talking tough because of India’s threatening stance. The Foreign Office has also offered an initial negative comment on the “dossier” by saying it is “one-sided”. If India handles the developments inside Pakistan right, there is no doubt that Pakistan will be under obligation to follow through on its decision to track down the perpetrators of Mumbai.

The maxim that has emanated from fifty years of Indo-Pak relations is this: one can’t front-load “solutions” for normality; one has to normalise first and then expect disputes to get resolved. Wars have been fought in the past with no positive result. And one cannot say that future wars will be any less negative. What is needed today is cooperation against the terrorists.
 
>>I guess its time to move on. We are done with the nationality of Kasab and it should not be construed as win for India and vice versa.

Certainly it is a loss for Pakistan. I've read many of the comments here since the Mumbai attacks and on the whole they reflect poorly on Pakistanis: convenient lies, half-truths, evasions, these were all employed on the pretext of "defending Pakistan". Don't you think that had Pakistan's government been open and pro-active and you yourselves honest from the beginning this would have served you and your country better?

If nothing else, it was a betrayal of those Pakistanis, soldiers especially, who see lawlessness and terrorism as Pakistan's number-one enemy and have fought hard to destroy it from within their country's breast. Now there isn't a Pakistani anywhere who can claim a level of dignity equal or superior to that of the ordinary Israeli, Indian, or Westerner who is willing to take his lumps along with his pride. Nice going, guys.
 
>>I guess its time to move on. We are done with the nationality of Kasab and it should not be construed as win for India and vice versa.

Certainly it is a loss for Pakistan. I've read many of the comments here since the Mumbai attacks and on the whole they reflect poorly on Pakistanis: convenient lies, half-truths, evasions, these were all employed on the pretext of "defending Pakistan". Don't you think that had Pakistan's government been open and pro-active and you yourselves honest from the beginning this would have served you and your country better?

If nothing else, it was a betrayal of those Pakistanis, soldiers especially, who see lawlessness and terrorism as Pakistan's number-one enemy and have fought hard to destroy it from within their country's breast. Now there isn't a Pakistani anywhere who can claim a level of dignity equal or superior to that of the ordinary Israeli, Indian, or Westerner who is willing to take his lumps along with his pride. Nice going, guys.
Hog wash and distortions. I'm surprised you still consider yourself capable of 'taking your lumps with your pride, but then this comes from a defender of the atrocities and occupation of the Israelis and the Indians so perhaps it shouldn't be a surprise.

You constructed a strawman and then used it to denigrate Pakistan and Pakistanis. Pakistan's position, and that of many Pakistanis, was that India had to share evidence with Pakistan, both on the identity of Kasab and the Mumbai attacks for Pakistan to bring any alleged perpetrators to task.

The argument was that any investigation had to be conducted in Pakistan according to Pakistani laws, and India had to provide the evidence to Pakistan to do so. How is this position flawed?

What you would have us do, base on a few exchanges we had, was to merely hand over whoever India was demanding and accept whatever they were saying without any cooperation or sharing of evidence - that is the really a poor reflection on yourself, India and those Indians who defended this absurd demand to set aside due process and the rule of law.
 
>>Pakistan's position, and that of many Pakistanis, was that India had to share evidence with Pakistan, both on the identity of Kasab and the Mumbai attacks for Pakistan to bring any alleged perpetrators to task.

That attitude is indeed the root of the problem. For Pakistan insisted on retaining this position even after Pakistani law enforcement, including local police, knew much of the truth. Thus anger is rooted in the fact of Pakistan's attitude that it is always the duty of others to present proof, rather than Pakistan's responsibility to keep a clean house itself. While seen as sensible by Pakistanis, it is repulsive to many, including me. For it implies that such activity is approved by Pakistanis as long as Pakistan can get away with it. No wonder Pakistan today is seen as the breeding ground of much of the world's terrorism!

>>this comes from a defender of the atrocities and occupation of the Israelis and the Indians

You are trying to denigrate me and my opinion by associating me with something Pakistanis are supposed to detest. The implication is that my argument is sensible.

Now consider the flip side: why, if what Solomon2 is saying is so sensible, does it come from "a defender of the atrocities and occupation of the Israelis and the Indians"? Could it be that your perceptions of who I am, what I defend, or what "occupation" is are flawed? Could this be a typical and repeated Pakistani error? Why else would East Pakistan have seceded if they didn't consider themselves "occupied" and why is Pakistan in danger of falling apart now if not from atrocities disguised as other deeds?

Quit fooling yourselves and take responsibility for your actions or lack thereof. When you do that, Pakistan will gain more than its current fig-leaf of dignity.

Consider what happened to France in The Dreyfus Affair; once all the ugly details were out, French justice and democracy could be respected by others, as they couldn't before. And that occurred due to just a handful of people. Out of their pursuit for truth and justice, they elevated the French nation to a higher level of morality. Don't you think a fitting pursuit would be for you to do the same for Pakistan?
 
Miliband urges world to help Pakistan hunt terrorists

Updated at: 2248 PST, Wednesday, January 14, 2009
Miliband urges world to help Pakistan hunt terrorists NEW DELHI: International community will have to support Pakistan in combating terrorism, British Foreign Secretary David Miliband said on Wednesday.

Addressing a press conference here, Miliband said that terrorists are affecting Pakistan too. He said terrorism is a challenge for Pakistani government and called for world community to extend full support to Islamabad in terror war.

He further said: “President Asif Ali Zardari is fully committed to take action against the terrorists.”

It may be reminded here that British Foreign Secretary Miliband is currently on the visit of India as part of his efforts to defuse Pakistan-India tension. He will fly to Pakistan after India’s visit.
B
 

Wed Jan 14, 2009

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan – Pakistan's prime minister downplayed the significance of an Indian dossier on the Mumbai terrorist attacks, saying it is not evidence — and drawing an angry response from New Delhi on Wednesday.

India says the dossier shows that Pakistani militants staged the November slaughter of 164 people. India specifically blames Lashkar-e-Taiba, a militant group believed to have links to Pakistani intelligence.

Pakistan only recently acknowledged that the only surviving Mumbai gunman was Pakistani, but it insists none of its state agencies played a role in the attacks. Under international pressure, Pakistan has detained some suspects allegedly linked to the attacks, while repeatedly calling on India to provide evidence to allow legal prosecutions.

"All that has been received from India is some information. I say information because these are not evidence," Yousuf Raza Gilani told Parliament late Tuesday, according to the Associated Press of Pakistan.

The dossier, handed over on Jan. 5, included transcripts of phone calls allegedly made during the siege by the attackers and their handlers in Pakistan. Previously, India had given Pakistan a letter from the lone surviving gunman, Mohammed Ajmal Kasab, that reportedly said he and the nine other gunmen were Pakistani.

In his statement, Gilani said Pakistan was continuing to examine the dossier and urged "pragmatic cooperation" between the sides.

Speaking in New Delhi, Indian External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee called Gilani's comments part of a "continuing pattern of evasiveness and denial" over the attacks.

"These reinforce the already strong doubts which exist on Pakistan's stance on terrorism from Pakistan and on its capacity and willingness to cooperate with other countries against terrorism," Mukherjee said.

The Mumbai attacks are the latest crisis to roil ties between the two nuclear-armed neighbors, who have already fought three wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947.

In particular, Pakistani observers have warned that the incident could set back tentative steps toward resolving issues such as the disputed territory of Kashmir.

Islamabad has handled the crisis clumsily, and typical "tit-for-tat" responses by the two sides will produce no constructive result, said Asad Durrani, a former head Inter-Services Intelligence, Pakistan's main spy agency.

Violence continued elsewhere in Pakistan on Wednesday, when gunmen on a motorcycle shot and killed four police officers near the city of Quetta in the southwestern province of Baluchistan, said Mohammed Ishtiaq, an area police chief. Police were still investigating the motive for the shooting.

Baluchistan has long been the scene of a low-level insurgency, with militant groups seeking greater regional autonomy and a larger share of revenue from its natural resources.

In a separate incident there Wednesday, a roadside bomb critically wounded seven paramilitary troops in Dera Bugti district, some 310 miles (500 kilometers) east of Quetta, said Muhammad Ashfaq, a senior police official.

Sarbaz Baluch, a purported spokesman for the Baluch Republican Army, one of the main militant groups in the province, said the group staged the attack out of revenge after a large portrait of a slain nationalist Baluchi leader was removed from the area.

He claimed four troops were killed and six wounded.
 

* Both countries agree to fight terrorism together​

LAHORE: Pakistan shared a dossier handed over by India regarding the Mumbai terror attacks with the visiting Saudi intelligence chief, while briefing him on Islamabad’s progress of its own probe into the incident, a private TV channel reported.

Saudi Arabia’s intelligence chief Prince Muqrin Bin Abdul Aziz was on Wednesday briefed by Interior Adviser Rehman Malik on matters relating to the Mumbai terror attacks and the regional security situation.

The channel said Prince Muqrin sought joint efforts by Pakistan’s political forces to ‘de-escalate’ tension in the Subcontinent.

Malik told the Saudi envoy Pakistan would share its findings into the Mumbai attacks as soon as the probe was completed, adding Pakistan would not hand over any person found linked to the incident to India, the channel added.

Any action against those found guilty would be initiated in Pakistan in accordance with the country’s laws, the channel quoted Malik.

Prince Muqrin praised Pakistan’s efforts in combating terrorism and improving the law and order situation in the country, sources told Daily Times.

Terrorism: Both the sides agreed to work in close cooperation in various matters of bilateral interest, including the fight against terrorism.

According to the sources, the Saudi intelligence chief said both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan wanted to eliminate terrorism, as those involved in such activities were bringing a bad name to Islam. Muqrin assured Islamabad of the Saudi government’s full cooperation in this regard. Interior Secretary Kamal Shah was also present in the meeting.

Earlier on Tuesday, Muqrin had met top political leaders of the country, including Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani, Nawaz Sharif, Shahbaz Sharif, Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Fazlur Rehman and Imran Khan at the Saudi embassy in Islamabad.

Muqrin had delivered Saudi King Abdullah Bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud’s message, which urged the Pakistani political leadership to show solidarity and resolve their internal differences through dialogue to bring the country out of prevailing crises.

The Saudi intelligence chief is also likely to visit India and Afghanistan as part of a drive to defuse tensions in the region. The visit is a follow-up of the Saudi foreign minister’s visit to the region after the Mumbai terrorist attacks.
 
^^ That is correct. We see the repeated pathetic attempts to link this tragedy to unrelated events.

Trying to get away seems to be the only motive.
 
Updated at: 1153 PST, Thursday, January 15, 2009
India got intelligence five days before Mumbai attacks: Tehlka MUMBAI: India government had received the vital and critical intelligence five days before Mumbai attacks which had been simply ignored.

According to Indian web site Tehlka.com, sources in the highest quarters in New Delhi have told that the mobile numbers that were used by the Mumbai terrorists were available with the Intelligence Bureau at least five days before 26/11.

Highly placed sources shared the contents of a ‘Secret’ note that contains 35 mobile numbers. Of the 35 SIM cards, 32 had been purchased from Kolkata and three from Delhi and sent to Pakistan-adminstered Kashmir by mid- November.

Highly placed sources reveal that crucial and stunning piece of information was received by the Intelligence Bureau (IB) on 21 November, at least five full days before Ajmal Amir Kasav, the lone surviving terrorist and his nine accomplices got off the inflatable dinghy at Mumbai’s Badhwar Park on the evening of 26/11.


The Prime Minister and Home Minister are aware that for all the five crucial days that the numbers were available, they were not being monitored. The lapse is all the more critical because at least three of the 32 numbers contained in the Secret note, were the exact same cell numbers that the Mumbai terrorists used to keep in touch with their handlers in Pakistan.

It is well possible that the terrorists only activated their mobile numbers after reaching Mumbai but that does not excuse the fact that the numbers were not put under surveillance despite the knowledge that they had been sent to trained militants in ***.

On 18 September, for example, the Research and Analysis Wing had intercepted a satellite phone conversation, which clearly indicated that a hotel at the Gateway of India in Mumbai would be targeted.

Crucially, the intercept also revealed that the sea route would be used to launch this operation. Again, on 24 September, RAW recorded another conversation. This time, the hotels were mentioned by name and they included the Taj, the Sea Rock Hotel and the Marriott hotel. If these inputs were being analysed, it would have become clearer that hotels in Mumbai would be attacked and that the sea route would be used.

Security breached ease with which Mumbai came under attack brought back the question of internal security.

India got intelligence five days before Mumbai attacks: Tehlka - GEO.tv
 
And yet they blame us while the problem lies within.:tsk:
 
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