MTA to enter global market

[3Idiots]

The IAF doesn't have 20+ years to wait for an AN-32 replacement. Which is how long it would take for the ADA/NAL/HAL to build up the requisite experience and expertise to build something like the MTA.

AN-32 replacements are already coming in -- US transports ... generations ahead of anything russian / soviet.

Tejas is closer to western contemporaries .. I am glad there is NIL soviet / russian role in it.

The west is significantly ahead of rooskies .. true, they won't do a JV with us, but that's why Tejas / ADA approach works.

 

[Koovie]

AN-32 replacements are already coming in -- US transports ... generations ahead of anything russian / soviet.

Tejas is closer to western contemporaries .. I am glad there is NIL soviet / russian role in it.

The west is significantly ahead of rooskies .. true, they won't do a JV with us, but that's why Tejas / ADA approach works.

We dont replace our AN32s now! Why do you think are we upgrading the entire fleet??? The MTA will replace them.

 

[acetophenol]

We dont replace our AN32s now! Why do you think are we upgrading the entire fleet??? The MTA will replace them.

I don't think MTA will replace AN32,as we are upgrading them. It will be atleast 2020 when the upgrade is completed by ukraine.
I believe,MTA will open a new class in our transport fleet by complimenting the clines.

 

[Abingdonboy]

AN-32 replacements are already coming in -- US transports ... generations ahead of anything russian / soviet.

Tejas is closer to western contemporaries .. I am glad there is NIL soviet / russian role in it.

The west is significantly ahead of rooskies .. true, they won't do a JV with us, but that's why Tejas / ADA approach works.

The US transports are to replace the IL-76 (C-17) and to fulfill a role the IAF has had open for some time- dedicated Spec Ops airlifter (C-130J). These have NOTHING to do with replacing the AN-32.

I don't think MTA will replace AN32,as we are upgrading them. It will be atleast 2020 when the upgrade is completed by ukraine.
I believe,MTA will open a new class in our transport fleet by complimenting the clines.

The IAF has openly said the MTA is a replacement for the AN-32s.

 

[sancho]

I don't think MTA will replace AN32,as we are upgrading them. It will be atleast 2020 when the upgrade is completed by ukraine.

And MTA =>

An example of such cooperation is the development of the Russian-Indian Multi-Role Military Transport Aircraft (MTA), which is expected to fly for the first time in 2017 and enter production both in Russia and India in 2019.

Russia Remains Key Arms Supplier for India | Indo Defense


So the AN 32 will be upgraded to extend their life, until MTA will be available.

 

[sancho]

@Abingdonboy

Wrt A400 and MTA...

I recently asked a French member of IDF about his opinion on the interest of French forces in MTA, because France had offered to order 14 x Embraer KC390s, to replace older C130s, in return to a Rafale procurement of Brazil. That would have been part of the offset they offered in the Brazilian competition and Dassault would even support the development.

He said it might be difficult, once because MTA is delayed and secondly because it might include too much Russian parts, especially the engines, which are considered in the west, as not reliable enough and difficult to maintain.
Now some reports about the MTA development says, that India didn't decided yet if we go for the same engines, the Russians will go for, or if we might take a western option. He said the F117-PW-100 of the C17s might be interesting in this regard, since it would offer commonality and would make the MTA more interesting to NATO countries.

However, the Russians most likely will insist on the same engines for the 45 we have ordered so far, to increase their benefits, or will ask for quiet some money as integration costs for western stuff.
But still I think it would be interesting for India, to develop an export version, produced in India, aimed on NATO countries.
An interesting solution then might be the integration of TP400 prop engines of the A400M, which then would offer commonality for any customer of the A400 in a class below the A400. Infact, such an MTA would be similar to the C160 Transall, which was widely used in Europe and which will be replaced by the A400 now.
For Indian forces this might be interesting too, a prop version of MTA could be an interesting alternative to the C130Js in special ops roles, or even more interesting as an MPA comparable to the Sea Herc, that is on offer for IN now.

What do you think?

 

[acetophenol]

The US transports are to replace the IL-76 (C-17) and to fulfill a role the IAF has had open for some time- dedicated Spec Ops airlifter (C-130J). These have NOTHING to do with replacing the AN-32.




The IAF has openly said the MTA is a replacement for the AN-32s.

That was during the 2005 times,when the idea of MTA was born. They then said the prototype first flight by 2007 and induction into service by 2010 to replace the respective Antonov class aircrafts of both airforces. That time our An 32 upgrade wasn't thought off. Now with An 32 being upgraded, I don't think MTA will replace them.

 

[sancho]

@Abingdonboy

Wrt A400 and MTA...

In addition to what I've said earlier:

Wouldn't be a bad idea to cover a wider array of roles and export chances, if it is technically feasable with the TP400 engines.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

Wrt A400 and MTA...

I recently asked a French member of IDF about his opinion on the interest of French forces in MTA, because France had offered to order 14 x Embraer KC390s, to replace older C130s, in return to a Rafale procurement of Brazil. That would have been part of the offset they offered in the Brazilian competition and Dassault would even support the development.

He said it might be difficult, once because MTA is delayed and secondly because it might include too much Russian parts, especially the engines, which are considered in the west, as not reliable enough and difficult to maintain.
Now some reports about the MTA development says, that India didn't decided yet if we go for the same engines, the Russians will go for, or if we might take a western option. He said the F117-PW-100 of the C17s might be interesting in this regard, since it would offer commonality and would make the MTA more interesting to NATO countries.

However, the Russians most likely will insist on the same engines for the 45 we have ordered so far, to increase their benefits, or will ask for quiet some money as integration costs for western stuff.
But still I think it would be interesting for India, to develop an export version, produced in India, aimed on NATO countries.
An interesting solution then might be the integration of TP400 prop engines of the A400M, which then would offer commonality for any customer of the A400 in a class below the A400. Infact, such an MTA would be similar to the C160 Transall, which was widely used in Europe and which will be replaced by the A400 now.
For Indian forces this might be interesting too, a prop version of MTA could be an interesting alternative to the C130Js in special ops roles, or even more interesting as an MPA comparable to the Sea Herc, that is on offer for IN now.

What do you think?

@sancho some VERY interesting points. Wrt fitting the PW F117 engines onto the MTA, well if it is feasible then I don't see why not as these engines are going to be in Indian service anyway and as such will have the requisite MRO facilities in India.


Again if the TP400 can feasibly be fitted onto the MTA and the performance is found suitable then again I don't see why India can't atleast look into it.

The issue is HAL, it will be on them to show some initiative and on this front HAL can be hit or miss. In some cases they are very foreword thinking and innovative but in other cases they don't push the envelope quite as much as many of us would like.


There will be the issue of costs associated with the integration and testing of these variants though and whilst India/HAL has access to the funds your guess is as good as mine when it comes to whether HAL will justify to itself these costs.

Considering that HAL will be setting up a production line in India and HAL has a 50% stake in the MTA project, I think there is the room for HAL to exercise their wish for certain offshoots and modifications. The fact that it is not clear yet that the HAL-made MTAs will have the same Russian engine as the Russian-made MTAs leads me to assume that HAL is considering other options at the very least.

When it comes to Indian operation of these variants. For sure another 6 C-130Js for Spec Ops are assured (bringing the total to 12) but I certainly feel there is scope within the IAF for a smaller prop transport to support Spec Ops and before I had advocated tagging on a few extra units to whichever a/c won the Avro-replacement competion (C-27J or C-295)but a prop version of the MTA would fit this role well IMHO.

If HAL partners with say Raytheon or ELBIT then yes, they could churn out an a/c that meets the IN's Medium range MPA requirement.

Additionally there are many other Indian services looking into transports in this class/just below such as the ICG and BSF.

A lot of "ifs" here though and I really don't know if HAL are looking at the MTA to fill other roles other than in the current AN-32 replacement role.


Let's wait and see!

 

[jha]

^^ If HAL does decide on using PW engine for MTA, It will turn out to be a hugely successful project with good export potential. ( imo the thrust of both engines are also similar)
A civilian version might as well get introduced which will be cater to the huge demands of the regional airliners in coming decades.

But there is a big IF. HAL still has not embraced the business model required.

 

[sancho]

As I said, I would prefer a split between the Russian jet engine on the one side and the western prop engine on the other. Once because the main competitior will be the KC390, which also is a jet engined transporter, but more suitable for western countries with engine and avionics. The MTA with Russian engine can be more cost-effective to procure and might have higher chances at Asian and African countries. The Propengine version on the otherside could be developed by India alone, without any Russian participation, for specialised roles in Indian forces, but also as an alternative for western countries, that prefers prop engines because of lower operational costs, lower take off and landing requirements, longer loiter time or range (in MPA roles for example) than jet engined aircrafts. Offering an MTA with western jet engine won't seperate us from the competitors and will not increase the export chances too much, especially with the reputation of Russia and India, compared to western counterparts.