MRCA ::: India May Cancel Fighter Competition

[Evil Flare]

20 billion .. b/c kickbacks for lots of peoples ....

 

[Abingdonboy]

20 billion .. b/c kickbacks for lots of peoples ....

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[tvsram1992]

Mirage 2000 deal and MRCA lot of loot
We must have bought Mig35/Su35 of mki standards.

 

[Hello_10]

I think India can get a better deal with Super hornets. Also, this can be use in Indian ACs as well. But I guess the kick back is not as good as the European planes.

US is doing mistake from very first day. It is the thumb rule of purchase of defense arms is, “Importance of a reliable supplier is always more than the reliable arms.” Until you get the reliable supplier who would always has his “Political interests” associated with you, you cant buy arms from him. Just have a look on Pakistan, if they decide to open fire on NATO troops, US is going to cut spare parts supply of F16s and of many other naval arms so they are nothing but handicapped if they decide to go against US right now. Only Chinese arms are useful against US, even if jf17 is not as good as F16.

For India, Russia was the only option from Beginning. Even if they consider France, we always find France to surrender when EU take any decision in unity while Eurofighter is made by four manufactures with few techs from US also. Also, France was always proved to be very tough on negotiations, either for cost or for tech transfer. I don’t know how old you are but, Im reading about defense contracts for last 20 years and during the time of Vajpayee government, they signed for Scorpion submarines with France and it was for $2.1bn for six piece and was to be delivered from 2008 but right now, its cost has been escalated to over $5bn and even if we start getting these submarines from 2015 onwards, it is still optimistic. Also, there were always news about French’s unwillingness to transfer their key techs during last few years.

 

[Hello_10]

Mirage 2000 deal and MRCA lot of loot
We must have bought Mig35/Su35 of mki standards.

I used to support Mirage2000-5mk2 in 2008 as France was going to close its production lines in 2008 so it was very obvious that they were going to transfer its tech very neatly as anyhow they were going to close production line of Mirage2000 and also their best aircraft had become Rafale till then, not Mirages. and also Mirage2000-5 could cost around $60mil per piece only, as compare to around $90mil of Rafale, with already having infrastructure of Mirage2000H in India. And production of Mirage2000-5mk2 could well start from 2010 in India, if they could sign that deal in 2007 and this Mirage was going to work with SU30MKI as a front line aircraft till 2020, when time of stealth aircrafts will start. (Like, how we already have infrastructure of Mig29 and dual engine MIG35 is nothing but a better version of Mig29 with a very powerful AESA radar than Rafale. Name was Miig35 was even Mig29VOT till 2009 but Russian now say it Mig35 in short.) But now, if you want French's best Rafale, then even if you can get their all tech transfer till 2017-18 also, you will be lucky. They simply wont transfer their best tech until they develop a better one than the previous one and production of MRCA aircrafts would start at least from 2017-18 onwards, than the proposed 2015. While Mirage2000-5mk2 was no bad and IAF is still considering $3bn package for the upgrades of existing 51 Mirage2000H to Mirage2000-5mk2 standard. even right now, the best aircraft on the Indian border is F16 block52, not the J10, and Mirage2000-5mk2 is a fit comparison to F16 block52, also both of them don’t use AESA radar. And about future upgrades? Neither F16 nor Mirage2000 will be upgraded in future in the time of 5th gen aircrafts from 2020 onwards. And no matter how much you upgrade Rafale or Eurofighter, you cant send them in the territory of enemy if you will have stealth aircrafts after 2020. And within Indian territory, whether it’s a 4+ or 4++ aircraft, more or less all will do the work as an Interceptor.

Dual engine Mig35 (Mig29VOT), with much improved A2G capabilities, which was primarily an air superiority aircraft in 90s, and owing a very powerful AESA radar, was the only option for IAF since France closed production line of Mirage2000-5. If you put a Mig35 in front of F16 block70 (or Super Hornet), the deciding factor will be only skills of the pilot, write down somewhere, as both use powerful AESA radars. While Mig35 is much cheaper to buy for around $45mil to $50mil only (with little higher maintanance cost), with guarantee of full tech transfer from Russia while neither US nor European suppliers will transfer their full tech to India, just write down this also somewhere.

(Its worth mentioning here that no matter how much promise IAF has received from the European suppliers, it will be only Russia who will help the IAF to develop a capable AESA radar for LCA/ Tejas by their own, as what Russia has promised, but none of the European supplier is going to transfer techs of AESA radar to India so easily.)

 

[The enlightened]

I used to support Mirage2000-5mk2 in 2008 as France was going to close its production lines in 2008 so it was very obvious that they were going to transfer its tech very neatly as their best aircraft had become Rafale till then and also Mirage2000-5 could cost around $60mil per piece only, as compare to around $90mil of Rafale, with already having infrastructure of Mirage2000H in India. And production of Mirage2000-5mk2 could well start from 2010 in India, if they could sign that deal in 2007 and this Mirage was going to work with SU30MKI as a front line aircraft till 2020, when time of stealth aircrafts will start. (Like, how we already have infrastructure of Mig29 and dual engine MIG35 is nothing but a better version of Mig29 with a very powerful AESA radar than Rafale. Name was Miig35 was even Mig29VOT till 2009 but Russian now say it Mig35 in short.) But now, if you want French best Rafale, then even if you can get their all tech transfer till 2017-18 also, you will be lucky. They simply wont transfer their best tech until they develop a better one than the previous one and production of MRCA aircrafts would start at least from 2017-18 onwards, from the proposed 2015. While Mirage2000-5mk2 was no bad and IAF is still considering $3bn package for the upgrades of existing 51 Mirage2000H to Mirage2000-5mk2 standard. even right now, the best aircraft on the Indian border is F16 block52, not the J10, and Mirage2000-5mk2 is a fit comparison to F16 block52, also both of them don’t use AESA radar. And about future upgrades? Neither F16 nor Mirage2000 will be upgraded in future in the time of 5th gen aircrafts from 2020 onwards. And no matter how much you upgrade Rafale or Eurofighter, you cant send them in the territory of enemy if you will have stealth aircrafts after 2020. And within Indian territory, whether it’s a 4+ or 4++ aircraft, more or less all will do the work.

Dual engine Mig35 (Mig29VOT), with much improved A2G capabilities, which was primarily an air superiority aircraft in 90s, and owing a very powerful AESA radar, was the only option for AIF since France closed production line of Mirage2000-5. If you put a Mig35 in front of F16 block70, the deciding factor will be only skills of the pilot, write down somewhere, as both use powerful AESA radars. While Mig35 is much cheaper to buy for around $45mil to $50mil only, with guarantee of full tech transfer from Russia while neither US nor European supplier will transfer their full tech to India, just write down somewhere.

(Its worth mention here that no matter how much promise IAF has received from the European suppliers, it will be only Russia who will help the IAF to develop a capable AESA radar for LCA/ Tejas by their own, as what Russia has promised, but none of the European supplier is going to transfer techs of AESA radar to India so easily.)

seeriously what have you been smoking for the past 20 years

 

[Kinetic]

Its already 2012. If PAK FA is available by 2015 than there is no point of MRCA. But EFT is cool, I think they should come up with stealth version like F-15SE.

PAK FA-03 with RAM coating

 

[Hello_10]

Mirage 2000 deal and MRCA lot of loot
We must have bought Mig35/Su35 of mki standards.

I tell you something which I hope very few will understand here. like how a gentleman came with option of Eurofighter in post of 159, I would like to ask him, why do you need any aircraft from anyone and why cant you make the same by yourself than buying from others? French have production line of Mirage2000 in 80s then they improved it to 2000-5mk2 standard till 90s and then they introduced Rafale during last 10 years which has much similarities with the infrastructure of Mirage and now they have closed production lines of Mirage. And about Russia, they have production lines of two, Migs and SUs. From Mig 21, 27, 29 to Mig 35 and on the other side they have SUs from SU23, SU27, SU30, SU30/35 and their 5th gen PAK FA which is using air frame of Su27.

But what I told to few on different newspapers who said “Not too many Russian arms, we need different.” That, make Indian defense a “Chu Chu ka Murabba”. Have infrastructure of MIGs, SU30s, Mirage2000s, LCA/ Tejas, with having new space for PAK FA/ FGFA also and now, as what the gentleman advised in post 159, have production line of EFT also, (EFT will cost over $140mil per piece, while its capability as a stealth aircraft is on question even if it will have RAM coating, while we already have 5th gen PAK FA/ FAFA plan for $100mil per unit only). A complete 'Chu Chu Ka Murrabba', the IAF will look like after 5 -6 years isn’t it? Don’t IAF will become a joke if they will have so many type of aircrafts without sociality in anyone except in FGFA and LCA?

While we know, if we sign contract for Mig35/ Mig29VOT right now, its delivery will start from 2013 onwards and we would already have pilots having training on Mig29s and they may start flying Mig35 straight away within just 3 to 4 months. while it takes around 3 years for a pilot to master an aircraft while if we already have 68 Mig29SMT, with Mig29Ks also, then we would have at least 150 pilots having experience on Mig29s which would be able to fly Mig35 even on the border areas within just 6 months since it will be delivered? While delivery of EFT/ Rafale will start from 2018 and Pilots will show confidence on these aircrafts from 2022 onwards????????

(France will have only Mirage2000s and Rafale till 2030 in their inventory, Germany with Eurofighter and JSF/ F35, Russia with SU35/ Mig29 and PAK FA only and India will be by 2030 with Mig29s, Mirage2000s, LCA/ Tejas, SU30MKI, PAK FA/ FGFA, and ………. Sign EFT or Rafale also for MRCA for at least over $120mil each?????????? While Mig35/ Mig29VOT would cost around $45mil to $50mil with just little higher maintenance cost and by any type of calculation, IAF may save at least $8bn from $25bn estimated cost for 200 aircrafts through MRCA, even if we calculate life cycle cost to cover maintenance cost also right now and this Mig35 will give the IAF a complete indigenous capability on the existing over 100 Mig29s which will be helpful for them with their existing Mig29SMT/ Mig29K, like how they have full techs of SU30MKI, from raw to product? And saving of this $8bn (around 43,000 crore rupees can well be used to make credible infrastructure while Mig35 is no less capable than F16 block70, Super Hornet, Rafale or Eurofighter.)

 

[tvsram1992]

I used to support Mirage2000-5mk2 in 2008 as France was going to close its production lines in 2008 so it was very obvious that they were going to transfer its tech very neatly as anyhow they were going to close production line of Mirage2000 and also their best aircraft had become Rafale till then, not Mirages. and also Mirage2000-5 could cost around $60mil per piece only, as compare to around $90mil of Rafale, with already having infrastructure of Mirage2000H in India. And production of Mirage2000-5mk2 could well start from 2010 in India, if they could sign that deal in 2007 and this Mirage was going to work with SU30MKI as a front line aircraft till 2020, when time of stealth aircrafts will start. (Like, how we already have infrastructure of Mig29 and dual engine MIG35 is nothing but a better version of Mig29 with a very powerful AESA radar than Rafale. Name was Miig35 was even Mig29VOT till 2009 but Russian now say it Mig35 in short.) But now, if you want French's best Rafale, then even if you can get their all tech transfer till 2017-18 also, you will be lucky. They simply wont transfer their best tech until they develop a better one than the previous one and production of MRCA aircrafts would start at least from 2017-18 onwards, than the proposed 2015. While Mirage2000-5mk2 was no bad and IAF is still considering $3bn package for the upgrades of existing 51 Mirage2000H to Mirage2000-5mk2 standard. even right now, the best aircraft on the Indian border is F16 block52, not the J10, and Mirage2000-5mk2 is a fit comparison to F16 block52, also both of them don’t use AESA radar. And about future upgrades? Neither F16 nor Mirage2000 will be upgraded in future in the time of 5th gen aircrafts from 2020 onwards. And no matter how much you upgrade Rafale or Eurofighter, you cant send them in the territory of enemy if you will have stealth aircrafts after 2020. And within Indian territory, whether it’s a 4+ or 4++ aircraft, more or less all will do the work as an Interceptor.

Dual engine Mig35 (Mig29VOT), with much improved A2G capabilities, which was primarily an air superiority aircraft in 90s, and owing a very powerful AESA radar, was the only option for IAF since France closed production line of Mirage2000-5. If you put a Mig35 in front of F16 block70 (or Super Hornet), the deciding factor will be only skills of the pilot, write down somewhere, as both use powerful AESA radars. While Mig35 is much cheaper to buy for around $45mil to $50mil only (with little higher maintanance cost), with guarantee of full tech transfer from Russia while neither US nor European suppliers will transfer their full tech to India, just write down this also somewhere.

(Its worth mentioning here that no matter how much promise IAF has received from the European suppliers, it will be only Russia who will help the IAF to develop a capable AESA radar for LCA/ Tejas by their own, as what Russia has promised, but none of the European supplier is going to transfer techs of AESA radar to India so easily.)

I tell you something which I hope very few will understand here. like how a gentleman came with option of Eurofighter in post of 159, I would like to ask him, why do you need any aircraft from anyone and why cant you make the same by yourself than buying from others? French have production line of Mirage2000 in 80s then they improved it to 2000-5mk2 standard till 90s and then they introduced Rafale during last 10 years which has much similarities with the infrastructure of Mirage and now they have closed production lines of Mirage. And about Russia, they have production lines of two, Migs and SUs. From Mig 21, 27, 29 to Mig 35 and on the other side they have SUs from SU23, SU27, SU30, SU30/35 and their 5th gen PAK FA which is using air frame of Su27.

But what I told to few on different newspapers who said “Not too many Russian arms, we need different.” That, make Indian defense a “Chu Chu ka Murabba”. Have infrastructure of MIGs, SU30s, Mirage2000s, LCA/ Tejas, with having new space for PAK FA/ FGFA also and now, as what the gentleman advised in post 159, have production line of EFT also, (EFT will cost over $140mil per piece, while its capability as a stealth aircraft is on question even if it will have RAM coating, while we already have 5th gen PAK FA/ FAFA plan for $100mil per unit only). A complete 'Chu Chu Ka Murrabba', the IAF will look like after 5 -6 years isn’t it? Don’t IAF will become a joke if they will have so many type of aircrafts without sociality in anyone except in FGFA and LCA?

While we know, if we sign contract for Mig35/ Mig29VOT right now, its delivery will start from 2013 onwards and we would already have pilots having training on Mig29s and they may start flying Mig35 straight away within just 3 to 4 months. while it takes around 3 years for a pilot to master an aircraft while if we already have 68 Mig29SMT, with Mig29Ks also, then we would have at least 150 pilots having experience on Mig29s which would be able to fly Mig35 even on the border areas within just 6 months since it will be delivered? While delivery of EFT/ Rafale will start from 2018 and Pilots will show confidence on these aircrafts from 2022 onwards????????

seriously Mig35 with mki standards would have been the best beast in IAF . They might have replaced the traditional engines with Su35 engines which would have indeed made the Mig35 more agile with super cruising ability . I dont know why to buy expensive aircrafts when pakistan will not be getting an aircraft better than F16IN(After lot of upgrades) and Mig35 can take out J10 or J11 wvr or bvr fights . You might have just changed the engine . By the time China gets J20's we will be having 1st stage of active BMD deployed that can detect stealth targets at 1000kms . We will be having handful of PAKFA's to counter J20's .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/89126-2-mig-35-rafale-eft.html

 

[The enlightened]

seriously Mig35 with mki standards would have been the best beast in IAF . They might have replaced the traditional engines with Su35 engines which would have indeed made the Mig35 more agile with super cruising ability . I dont know why to buy expensive aircrafts when pakistan will not be getting an aircraft better than F16IN(After lot of upgrades) and Mig35 can take out J10 or J11 wvr or bvr fights . You might have just changed the engine . By the time China gets J20's we will be having 1st stage of active BMD deployed that can detect stealth targets at 1000kms . We will be having handful of PAKFA's to counter J20's .
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/89126-2-mig-35-rafale-eft.html

plz explain the highlighted parts

 

[AADHAAR]

I believe MRCA was always an excuse for buying the technology transfer from EFT or Rafale .... but USD 20 billion is quite a large amount to get that advantage.

Perhaps that money should be diverted to buy technology at the component level, rather than system level (on the pattern we have with Israel).

For sprucing up IAF squadrons, we can the assembly lines for Su 30 MKI .. to enhance production per year.

Further funds can be diverted to further speed up, enhance orders for LCA.

In the current geo-political environment, we can live without the entry of 126 MRCA entering between 2015 and 2020. The money saved can be used elsewhere.

 

[The enlightened]

I believe MRCA was always an excuse for buying the technology transfer from EFT or Rafale .... but USD 20 billion is quite a large amount to get that advantage.

Perhaps that money should be diverted to buy technology at the component level, rather than system level (on the pattern we have with Israel).

For sprucing up IAF squadrons, we can the assembly lines for Su 30 MKI .. to enhance production per year.

Further funds can be diverted to further speed up, enhance orders for LCA.

In the current geo-political environment, we can live without the entry of 126 MRCA entering between 2015 and 2020. The money saved can be used elsewhere.

MRCA was started with the aim of buying something in the class of M2K or MIG29
rafales and typhoons entered at a very later stage
about the money yes
the deal is heavily overpriced
but the kind of technology we will gain from it might prove to be crucial in the future

 

[tvsram1992]

plz explain the highlighted parts

We are co-developing with Israel so called LRTR radars

Swordfish is the target acquisition and fire control radar for the BMD system. The LRTR currently has a range of 600 km (370 mi) to 800 km (500 mi) and can spot objects as small as a cricket ball. The DRDO plans to upgrade the capacity of Swordfish to 1,500 km by 2011

It can detect even F22 at 600km
And we are getting much better radar wit in couple of years. It will be the powerful ground based GEWCS .
Swordfish Long Range Tracking Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

So let me get this right; "India & Israel have a radar that can detect F22 Raptor at 600km" REALLY?????
Does the hapless Pentagon know? Please let America know you have cracked the scientific barriers to augmenting exceptionally low radar signatures from Raptor so Obama can redirect all that money to other uses.

 

[TVVELVEMO$]

Now before I get bombarded with Indian innuendo let me make two quick points.
Israel cooperates with India as long as it suits US. Ask the Chinese if they got their AWACS? Or may I remind you about the Saga of Israeli AESA Radar for Indian Gripen?
I have previously argued that US contenders for MMRCA were pound-for-pound most cost effective systems and European aircraft do not pan out to be as cost effective as they appear on paper. Order for 126 advanced European aircraft will easily see Indian government paying far more than 10 Billion dollars. It just cannot be done. And BTW there is news that your Mig 29 upgrade is in trouble as well. Russia want 2 Billions more.
I guess when you jibber jabbber about your wealth, people get greedy eh?