Mr Jaitley’s best decision

[sancho]

Completely agree sir. These late acquisitions will hamper INs capabilities for a while. But better late then never I guess.

Well if they were caused because of defence related reasons, like the switch from MRCA to MMRCA, to get better fighters with more potential and more industrial advantages in return, it would be acceptable. But in these cases it's only the move of licence production to privat industry, which is an economical reason and IMO that's simply not good enough to delay things like that and play with the lifes of our soldiers and the security of the nation.

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Well if they were caused because of defence related reasons, like the switch from MRCA to MMRCA, to get better fighters with more potential and more industrial advantages in return, it would be acceptable. But in these cases it's only the move of licence production to privat industry, which is an economical reason and IMO that's simply not good enough to delay things like that and play with the lifes of our soldiers and the security of the nation.

Couldn't have agreed more. I am gutted to say the least. Have been expecting an off the self order for these new submarines.

 

[nik22]

It just absurd to me how people are complaining about it. We have a working government after 10 years in Defense. But people do not stop.
Let me mention few points:
- Everyone wants India to develop thing indigenously but when govt take action. Criticism start about delays.
- 6-8 weeks delay is being projected as very crucial delay (it is two months)
- All sort of other opinions like buying additional 6 Scorpene. Even a person like I can think that it would be a logical thing. May be one purpose of doing this whole thing is to bring DCNS to the table with head down. Govt obviously have that option in mind.

Opinion does not need to be expressed on everything. People in decision making know a lot more than everyone on this forum.

 

[Sahasranama]

Did you even read the article (even if the source is known for his limited reliability)?

That is why I always rely on Mr. sancho rather than journalists like Ajay Shukla. Why believe reputed journalists when you have the choice of believing a teenagers rant on pdf.

It is even confirming the coming delays!

- 6 to 8 weeks delay (end of this early next year!!!) alone to identify suitable shipyards, although we already know that MDL has gained the required know how!

How do you know MDL has gained the required know how ? ........ they are YET to launch the submarine. You are clairvoyant now ?

- next step will be team ups of Indian and foreign shipyards, in the next year!
- joint proposals of bids - next year
- evaluation of the bids and evaluations - next year possibly later
- shortlisting of L1 and L2 end of 2015 or early 2016
- final selection 2016 if everything goes smoothly

Sounds good to me. Clearly the Indian Navy too can live with it. Only Mr. sancho has pain in tummy.

And that although they could had selected a winner NOW and although the article confirms, that the current P75I deal aimed on the fast delivery of 2 subs by the winning vendor to speed up induction of SSKs into the navy, therefor to speed up modernisations!

They would have selected a winner 10 years back for 1/4th the current price. No great technological advancement has taken place since then. AIP and missile launching tech existed even back then.

Assuming MDL has to build the remaining 6 sub, it would mean send RFP today. Technical clarification and re-tendering of RFP. Proposal by next year. Shshort-listingf L1 by 2015. Final selection by 2015 or 2016 .......... nothing will change.

 

[sancho]

Criticism start about delays.
- 6-8 weeks delay is being projected as very crucial delay (it is two months)

Nobody is denying that the government is doing something, the point is, is if what they are doing the right thing?

They could had selected a winner NOW and the fixed the deal. Instead they chose to scrap the running tender and re-issue it. This decision that wasn't necessary and is not based on any reasons related to defence or the IN itself is the cause of the problem, because this decision causes major delays. And please read my post again, the 6-8 weeks are ONLY the delay to identify Indian manufacturers that are able to take over the licence production! It doesn't include the time for team ups, for joint bids, for evaluation of the bids and trials, for shortlisting or final selections...
So instead of selecting a winner now, this year and speeding up modernisations, they are purposly delaying it for the wrong reasons!

How do you know MDL has gained the required know how ? ........ they are YET to launch the submarine. You are clairvoyant now ?

SP’s: Can you brief us on the cooperation with the Indian industry in regards to their Scorpene submarine programme?

Buisson: The production of six SSK Scorpene submarines by MDL under a DCNS transfer of technology (ToT) is on-going (P75 programme).We are conducting here genuine transfers of technologies and of know-how at an unprecedented level for such sophisticated naval platforms and are providing our Indian partners with technical assistance to manufacture equipment's through indigenization programmes.

The shipyard modernisation programme launched by MDL with the support of DCNS progressed fast and will allow MDL to deliver more than one submarine per year. MDL has today absorbed the demanding technologies associated to the hull fabrication. At the end of the programme, MDL will have the capability to manufacture more Scorpenes by itself.

These significant ToT achievements are indeed paving the way for the current P75 and future programmes. MDL and DCNS teams work well together...

Bernard Buisson, Managing Director of DCNS India - SP's Naval Forces


That was too easy, please come up with some more demanding BS.

 

[Trawllu]

@sancho

does india have any matsya class subs design - ssk ?

also does L7T have any coastal subs design - of its own?

 

[sancho]

@sancho

does india have any matsya class subs design - ssk ?

also does L7T have any coastal subs design - of its own?

L&T had initially proposed the S1000 sub, jointly with Rubin, but that went nowhere and later reports suggested that they have own developments in the submarine area, but not sure if they aim on a propper SSK or the special ops subs only. As I said earlier, it would make sense to take a simple follow on procurement of Scorpenes and jointly develop an SSK with more indigenous parts, be it by MDL and L&T which both have gained know how in the submarine area, or by 1 Indian partner with a foreign partner, MDL and DCNS for Barracuda class SSK concept, L&T with HDW for U216 for example. But that's beyond the P75I requirement, which should had been selected now, to benefit from the existing production line.

 

[Sahasranama]

Nobody is denying that the government is doing something, the point is, is if what they are doing the right thing?

They could had selected a winner NOW and the fixed the deal. Instead they chose to scrap the running tender and re-issue it. This decision that wasn't necessary and is not based on any reasons related to defence or the IN itself is the cause of the problem, because this decision causes major delays. And please read my post again, the 6-8 weeks are ONLY the delay to identify Indian manufacturers that are able to take over the licence production! It doesn't include the time for team ups, for joint bids, for evaluation of the bids and trials, for shortlisting or final selections...
So instead of selecting a winner now, this year and speeding up modernisations, they are purposely delaying it for the wrong reasons!

That is your opinion. No problem, you are entitled to it.

Indian navy and MoD had a different idea and I support that. They seem to think the reasons are "right reasons" and again I agree with them. You are free to spin "purposly delaying it " for Political Reasons. ... again its a free country even for conspiracy theorists.

You are free to spin lies and propaganda to support Pappu or to be against "communal" forces. No problem.

Bernard Buisson, Managing Director of DCNS India - SP's Naval Forces
That was too easy, please come up with some more demanding BS.

LOL...you published an interview instead of displaying an actual Submarine. ........ yup. That is very convincing

I want to sell Taj Mahal cheap, want to buy it ? ........ how about some snake oil ?

 

[nik22]

Nobody is denying that the government is doing something, the point is, is if what they are doing the right thing?

They could had selected a winner NOW and the fixed the deal. Instead they chose to scrap the running tender and re-issue it. This decision that wasn't necessary and is not based on any reasons related to defence or the IN itself is the cause of the problem, because this decision causes major delays. And please read my post again, the 6-8 weeks are ONLY the delay to identify Indian manufacturers that are able to take over the licence production! It doesn't include the time for team ups, for joint bids, for evaluation of the bids and trials, for shortlisting or final selections...
So instead of selecting a winner now, this year and speeding up modernisations, they are purposly delaying it for the wrong reasons!





Bernard Buisson, Managing Director of DCNS India - SP's Naval Forces


That was too easy, please come up with some more demanding BS.

I understand your point and may be frustration. If India was an Authoritarian regime, decisions could have been taken NOW or even yesterday. But it is not. Opposition would be quick to train their guns on any haste.

In democracy, perception of people change in instant. Govt needs to follow due process, it could be cut short but can not be avoided.

 

[sancho]

That is your opinion. No problem, you are entitled to it.

Wrong, that's a fact that nobody can deny, since the competition is not "just" delayed for a small review or such, but scrapped and re-issued and you know it, that's why you keep on talking about all kind of nonsense, but won't even try to argue against it. Even the (according to you ) well reputed Ajay Shukla has proven that in this article, so even he is proven you wrong.

LOL...you published an interview instead of displaying an actual Submarine. ........ yup. That is very convincing

I don't need to convince anybody, when I have facts to back me up, that's why I easily could show you that the ToT is already absorbed for the production. But how should you know anything about that, since you only fall back to the party politic claims, better to have something when you don't have facts right?

In democracy, perception of people change in instant.

Perception can change, that's why I said it would be one thing if the reasons are defence related, if the MoD for example would want to implement other technical or operational requirements of the subs, or include other / more modern subs. That's basically what was done when we moved from MRCA to M-MRCA, but here there is no defence related point! All the scrapped tenders were only changed to implement privat industry for the licence production, which is soly an economical decision and won't add any benefits for the forces on the contrary, they pay for this decision with delayed modernisations.

 

[Sahasranama]

Wrong, that's a fact that nobody can deny, since the competition is not "just" delayed for a small review or such, but scrapped and re-issued and you know it, that's why you keep on talking about all kind of nonsense, but won't even try to argue against it. Even the (according to you ) well reputed Ajay Shukla has proven that in this article, so even he is proven you wrong.

Who is denying that the tender was re-issued? It is you who is blaming it all on "Conspiracy theories. ......... oh wait. It's all real to you.

I don't need to convince anybody, when I have facts to back me up, that's why I easily could show you that the ToT is already absorbed for the production. But how should you know anything about that, since you only fall back to the party politic claims, better to have something when you don't have facts right?

LOL ....the words of the CEO of a foreign firm who's job is to ensure minimum ToT is done and to maximise profit to his companay while at the same time ensuring they escape legal chock points is your expert witness ? ..... Why don't you try growing up for a change. Even college kids cannot be this naive.

 

[sancho]

LOL ....the words of the CEO of a foreign firm who's job is to ensure minimum ToT is done and to maximise profit to his companay while at the same time ensuring they escape legal chock points is your expert witness ? ..... Why don't you try growing up for a change. Even college kids cannot be this naive.

The official word of a CEO vs your word that we didn't absorbed ToT so far. Well I guess I give him a little bit more credibility than your denials.

 

[Sahasranama]

The official word of a CEO vs your word that we didn't absorbed ToT so far. Well I guess I give him a little bit more credibility than your denials.

Not my word you idiot. The proof is that the submarine is still not out there, floating in the water, or sinking.