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More than 85% INDIANS back BJP over Aamir Khan : Times of India

Changing goal post??
its an example unless everyone can derail another 20 pages to a pigeon.... :pop:

Earlier you were challenging the sample size and now debunking the whole survey...
and if you read earlier than that I was asking both the questions....dont indians learn to do research? :tsk:

.Dude what is your point of discontent here...make it clear and i can respond accordingly....
learn to read in context...

Apparently your mates here believe that 85% of 0.01% of the country represents all 1.25 billion....so I raised the 2nd question that if 85% of 0.01% of 1.25 billion are intolerant or prefer to close their eyes..does that also mean other 99.99% have also shut their eyes?

.now may i ask how you have arrived at this notion that Intolerance in India is rising?? what is your science behind it??
is it rocket science?

From lynching for beef, misbehaving with guests to asking your own pride (superstars) to go to Pakistan JUST BECAUSE you dont agree with them or they dont sing your tune? ...Not sure what gave....

You sending your writers who won national awards to cross border too?
 
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A security threat doesnt need to be defined...If you dont feel secure based on things happening in your surrounding - things happening to people in your village, of your caste, of your religion or what not.......ANY parent would feel threatened!


Yes but even random sampling is done randomly and if it is for research it is done on a large sample....ANY statistician will tell you the smaller the sample the HIGHER the inaccuracy!

So if from random sampling I get an intolerant RSS indian claiming to lynch anyone eating beef....I am supposed to say all indians lynch ANYONE eating beef? Awesome logic!


hmmm....Interesting! how about about you practice what you preach? 0.01% of the whole population in no language is considered a representative of the sample size!

As for the arbitrary % it depends what you wish to study if you wish to study behaviour then taking 0.01% is def not a representative of 100%

SO lets take you and all your mates here who are trolling as a representative of whole of india....so mocking someone and trolling is ALL that indians are made up of?


So 85% of indians believe there is no intolerance? So if a pigeon closes its eyes the hawk will disappear? :unsure:

There are MANY surveys online.....and half of them show rising intolerance in West, I live in the west and I have not seen nor felt it.....so how random are these survey and exactly how much do they represent IS a question science asks too often!


why are indians the largest exporter of beef/ their mata?

each and everyone of you is acting innocent as though 0.01% DOES represent all 1.25 billion of you! IF that is the case RSS literally represents ALL of you as well, right?
Oye, I gave you the desi logic and the most primitive methods of Random Sampling techniques.You want to dip your hand into the boiling pot to check each and every grain? Be my Guest.
Don't argue for the sake of arguing even you know what i say is true.:p:
 
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and that 85% are intolerant and shah rukh khan was talking about them so it was expected from them to mind it :)
 
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Dude if you are idea is trolling then be my guest...if you are genuinely want to debate and get more information than i would love to respond...Make a choice and let me know....
its an example unless everyone can derail another 20 pages to a pigeon.... :pop:
What example?? A sample size of 22K is good for you or not?? Contradict or acknowledge that it is a good enough sample size...see how debates can be made simple...
and if you read earlier than that I was asking both the questions....dont indians learn to do research? :tsk:
Both are contradictory...a sample size is not good enough vs the methodology itself is wrong are two different things...not sure what should I research here.....You may be asking both however what is that you believe in?? I will contradict you accordingly.....

learn to read in context...Apparently your mates here believe that 85% of 0.01% of the country represents all 1.25 billion....so I raised the 2nd question that if 85% of 0.01% of 1.25 billion are intolerant or prefer to close their eyes..does that also mean other 99.99% have also shut their eyes?
You are making no sense...I can simply see that you don't understand how sampling works...however let me ask you in a different way...By what mechanism you have reached this conclusion that the 85% have closed their eyes?? If the answer is below comments then it simply means you are making your assumptions on hearsay...now ignoring a sampling and believing hearsay is not smart..no??

is it rocket science? From lynching for beef, misbehaving with guests to asking your own pride (superstars) to go to Pakistan JUST BECAUSE you dont agree with them or they dont sing your tune? ...Not sure what gave....You sending your writers who won national awards to cross border too?
Wow!! let me try and answer point by point.....

India has become intolerant because there was lynching for beef...fair enough...now by that logic is Pakistan an intolerant nation??
Blasphemy in Pakistan: Anatomy of a Lynching | Al Jazeera America

Rational - Fanatics are there all over world...A nation is tolerant by virtue of her netizens...No govt. can do jack about it...

Misbehaving with Guests/Asking superstars to do go to Pakistan - May i know what percentage of 1.25 billion did that?? It's funny that you chose to ignore a sample of 22K fairly randome however painted the entire nation intolerant by action of few....is this fair mate??

National Awards Being returned - This is a debate forum...there is nothing wrong in asking people about a particular issue...There is lot of politics involved here....Try and use your sampling example on the number of national awards given vs returned....

Look i will again repeat - there is not a single sample/study that has been done which suggests India has become intolerant...I will give you two logical reasons that it hasn't and can't..Let's assume(a rubbish still for sake of argument) that Modi is communal to core...

a) Law and Order is a state subject...Center can't do jack about it...
b) Tolerance is not virginity that someone will come and take it away...Fault lines were there and will always be there especially in a country as diverse as India...however we have always remained united and worked together for our motherland...

Now i am assuming you will contradict me with some rational thoughts/points...Looking forward for your reply
 
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hmmm....Interesting! how about about you practice what you preach? 0.01% of the whole population in no language is considered a representative of the sample size!

As for the arbitrary % it depends what you wish to study if you wish to study behaviour then taking 0.01% is def not a representative of 100%

Again you have not picked up a statistics book and understand how normal distribution works even for a simple binomial system. There is a magic number of 30 (I won't go into the reasons why - because you have so far not bothered to counter anything with actual statistical reasoning) that as long as you are higher than (in your sample size), you have the start of statistical significance as long as it is totally random selection....no matter how big the population is.

If we had 30 samples instead of 22,000 for example for this response, the 95% confidence interval still has bounds of 72% and 98% (with center at 85%). The question again becomes the randomness of the sample (and thus its bias)....not its size.

This may be a helpful resource for you if you want to get grounded on some very basic things and concepts regarding population analysis through sampling, because you seem to know absolutely nothing on this matter:

Sampling Distributions

@Nilgiri @deckingraj for future reference, you will have better luck explaining to a rock anything intelligent. Sampling principles, unfortunately will fail.

I almost fell off my chair at 1%

If akheilos = JANA, she is a very reasonable, respectful lady deep down. I have debated her long long time ago in another forum far far away....she probably doesn't remember who I was (I don't really remember either)...but I do remember her and her personality.

But thats another story for another time perhaps. But I certainly would not call her a rock :P

She is not entirely wrong of what she is trying to assert here, I am just pointing out she is coming at it from the wrong angle. Statistics is rarely a sheer sampling ratio game.
 
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why are indians the largest exporter of beef/ their mata?

each and everyone of you is acting innocent as though 0.01% DOES represent all 1.25 billion of you! IF that is the case RSS literally represents ALL of you as well, right?
1. India exports Buffalo meat. Cow meat export is illegal.
2. Yes, RSS represents us well enough.

she is a very reasonable, respectful lady deep down.
She is not Farzana/Jana. So tough luck. :tup:
I also like Jana, she is annoying at times, but good at heart.
 
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She is not Farzana/Jana. So tough luck. :tup:
I also like Jana, she is annoying at times, but good at heart.

Oh ok, I misinterpreted something somewhere then :P Does Jana post here anywhere still?....or her hubby?
 
. . .
Yes but even random sampling is done randomly and if it is for research it is done on a large sample....ANY statistician will tell you the smaller the sample the HIGHER the inaccuracy!

So if from random sampling I get an intolerant RSS indian claiming to lynch anyone eating beef....I am supposed to say all indians lynch ANYONE eating beef? Awesome logic!
Ahh, so random sampling wont work only when its against RSS and India,but will work the rest of the time for others?
I hope you were given enough knowledge about randomized control trials,bias,double bias,cohort studies by others here in this thread,but still yeah what you say is right because that is the gospel truth.
 
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They must have called 10 Pundits and 10 mandir for their opinion from extremist volunteers
 
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Cults and conscience


TH_27_Oped_jpg_263_2635986f.jpg

Illustration: Satwik Gade


Vamsee_2635982a.jpg

Vamsee Juluri



Aamir Khan’s recent transformation from celebrity to activist-crusader needs to be seen in the context of the tension between commodification & social change in the media age.



Aamir Khan is more than a celebrity. He is, to a certain group of people in India and abroad, something like a conscience. He stands for many good qualities; tolerance, liberalism, concern for social justice, and the idea that one should not shy away from fighting whatever is wrong in the world. With Satyamev Jayate, he emerged as the media age’s equivalent of a national conscience figure, part-Oprah, part-NGO, and part-Gandhi for our times. It is hard to differ with him, or what he stands for. At one level, that is.



The cultural and spiritual landscape of postcolonial India has offered up very different idioms for the expression of something like a popular conscience. From the iconic Gandhi and many revered Gandhians whose life, memory, or even depictions served to remind one of ideas of right and wrong, to the many spiritual and religious figures who play the role of therapist, teacher, entertainer and moral guide to ordinary Indians, the role of a conscience-figure has always faced the challenges of commodification and co-optation. Gandhi, for example, was frequently the ironic-conscience in Indian movies, a silent weeper for injustice and corruption done under his watch, at least until the Munnabhai franchise.

Emptiness

The transformation of Aamir Khan in the last few years from Bollywood celebrity to activist-crusader needs to be seen therefore in the context of the tension that exists between commodification and social change in the media age. One might critique him for not doing enough, or not being enough, from the point of view of what might be considered a progressive politics, but there is also a growing sense of emptiness surrounding him when it comes to what might be called a politics of the conscience.

For those who believe that India has become vastly intolerant in the last year, Khan’s admission that his family considered moving out of India for fear of being harmed by intolerance might seem a valid point, a “no-brainer,” as one might say. For others, though, who find the claims about this rising intolerance largely unfounded, such a statement appears very different; not the outcry of a concerned citizen pained about his country, but as a cynical expression of disdain for a whole country. Supporters of Khan will see his critics as proof of what they have been saying about intolerance, and critics will see, once again, not so much proof of intolerance, but only a privileged and exalted sense of self-righteousness.

The key question one might need to examine here is simply whether there really was an act of intolerance against Khan that warranted such a strong statement of fear and condemnation. As far as we know, Khan has continued to work freely, make movies, even movies of a controversial nature like PK, sell products, and enjoy a life of celebrity and fame. He has not been browbeaten by governments, political parties, nor by citizens. He has been criticised somewhat for his selective story-telling in PK, but that is not unexpected for anyone who is a public figure, a creative person.



Those who have assumed a public role and become conscience-figures cannot shy away from the need to be responsible in their pronouncements.

Yet, Aamir Khan too has joined a group of people who believe, apparently, with all their hearts, that India has become more intolerant since May 2014. The incidents cited for this claim have been three murders, none of which has been determined to be connected to the national government or the ruling party. Yet, somehow, the fact that the Prime Minister did not condemn it quickly enough, or “strongly” enough, has warranted one of the loudest acts of protest by a part of the intellectual and artistic elite who seem to see something that many others simply don’t.

The tragedy of this sort of protest at a predetermined conclusion (Modi got elected, Modi is from the RSS, RSS founders admired Nazis, ergo, India is now fascist) is that it has broken India’s sense of itself in two.

Even with many regional parties, caste-based parties, and all the politics of its diversity, India seldom showed polarisation on the fundamental definitions of reality on such a scale ever before perhaps. Whether this polarisation is real, or the symptom of an age when the pervasiveness of the media, and the power of the media environment to turn into an echo chamber and feed a contrived public panic, as much of the U.S. media did before the Iraq war, is a question that needs honest debate, and often sadly missing in the war of clichés and slogans that TV debates dominated by party spokesmen rather than independent observers get reduced to.

No one can presume to instruct a fellow citizen on how much of a sense of belonging he ought to feel for the nation. But those citizens who have assumed a public role and who have become, either through desire or clever commercial craftsmanship, or both, conscience-figures for the nation, cannot shy away from the need to be responsible in their public pronouncements.

Even if critics of the Modi government insist that they are calling a party intolerant and not the nation, loose statements about wanting to flee India because it is becoming intolerant inevitably appear condescending and hurtful, and even hypocritical. There is a growing sense among people that essentially a small, privileged section of India’s intelligentsia, accustomed to living in some post-national or transnational space of selective identity politics, has turned increasingly inward and unresponsive to an India that may not have had the fine liberal arts education of the sort it did, but still believes, even if in simple language and terms, in a deeper kind of conscientiousness than what fashionable identity-based menus for protest might say.

Ordinary people

Many of the people upset by Aamir Khan’s statement are not innately minority-despising “intolerant” party-hacks but ordinary citizens who believe in an inclusive notion of India, and not some predetermined calculus about what identities are innately progressive and what identities are not. They see an India in which a very deep-rooted sense of acceptance, kindness, and patience helps it survive the chaos and struggle of the everyday. They live in an India where the basic goodness of its diverse people, and not the high distance of privilege, gives them their understanding of things like tolerance and intolerance. They might not have the sophisticated vocabulary for it, so they wave flags and say little more than simple patriotic slogans. But we cannot deny that they are from deep within a real India which knows itself very well. Meanwhile, though, the Neros and Batistas of our time, trapped in their palaces of high theory, cannot fathom this at all. Instead, they purport to destroy every drop of integrity and honesty in our discourse simply because their theories did not work out as planned.

(Vamsee Juluri is a professor of media studies at the University of San Francisco and the author of Rearming Hinduism.)

Aamir Khan's remarks: cult and conscience - The Hindu
 
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come again?

BTW, how much % of indian population is 22k people? Been asking for awhile no one answered me :cray:

Everyone is happy with the title 85% of indians ..... :unsure:

It is a very well known fact that a very vocal bhakt population exists that participate in all online polls etc. to promote BJP whenever they can. BJP also has a social media cell that promotes it aggressively among this community. The flwo is like this:

TOI puts up poll
'BJP Fans' type Facebook pages immediately detect and ask members to participate
Members immediately flock and poll

You can't read anything into these polls anymore.

Cults and conscience


TH_27_Oped_jpg_263_2635986f.jpg

Illustration: Satwik Gade


Vamsee_2635982a.jpg

Vamsee Juluri



Aamir Khan’s recent transformation from celebrity to activist-crusader needs to be seen in the context of the tension between commodification & social change in the media age.



Aamir Khan is more than a celebrity. He is, to a certain group of people in India and abroad, something like a conscience. He stands for many good qualities; tolerance, liberalism, concern for social justice, and the idea that one should not shy away from fighting whatever is wrong in the world. With Satyamev Jayate, he emerged as the media age’s equivalent of a national conscience figure, part-Oprah, part-NGO, and part-Gandhi for our times. It is hard to differ with him, or what he stands for. At one level, that is.



The cultural and spiritual landscape of postcolonial India has offered up very different idioms for the expression of something like a popular conscience. From the iconic Gandhi and many revered Gandhians whose life, memory, or even depictions served to remind one of ideas of right and wrong, to the many spiritual and religious figures who play the role of therapist, teacher, entertainer and moral guide to ordinary Indians, the role of a conscience-figure has always faced the challenges of commodification and co-optation. Gandhi, for example, was frequently the ironic-conscience in Indian movies, a silent weeper for injustice and corruption done under his watch, at least until the Munnabhai franchise.

Emptiness

The transformation of Aamir Khan in the last few years from Bollywood celebrity to activist-crusader needs to be seen therefore in the context of the tension that exists between commodification and social change in the media age. One might critique him for not doing enough, or not being enough, from the point of view of what might be considered a progressive politics, but there is also a growing sense of emptiness surrounding him when it comes to what might be called a politics of the conscience.

For those who believe that India has become vastly intolerant in the last year, Khan’s admission that his family considered moving out of India for fear of being harmed by intolerance might seem a valid point, a “no-brainer,” as one might say. For others, though, who find the claims about this rising intolerance largely unfounded, such a statement appears very different; not the outcry of a concerned citizen pained about his country, but as a cynical expression of disdain for a whole country. Supporters of Khan will see his critics as proof of what they have been saying about intolerance, and critics will see, once again, not so much proof of intolerance, but only a privileged and exalted sense of self-righteousness.

The key question one might need to examine here is simply whether there really was an act of intolerance against Khan that warranted such a strong statement of fear and condemnation. As far as we know, Khan has continued to work freely, make movies, even movies of a controversial nature like PK, sell products, and enjoy a life of celebrity and fame. He has not been browbeaten by governments, political parties, nor by citizens. He has been criticised somewhat for his selective story-telling in PK, but that is not unexpected for anyone who is a public figure, a creative person.



Those who have assumed a public role and become conscience-figures cannot shy away from the need to be responsible in their pronouncements.

Yet, Aamir Khan too has joined a group of people who believe, apparently, with all their hearts, that India has become more intolerant since May 2014. The incidents cited for this claim have been three murders, none of which has been determined to be connected to the national government or the ruling party. Yet, somehow, the fact that the Prime Minister did not condemn it quickly enough, or “strongly” enough, has warranted one of the loudest acts of protest by a part of the intellectual and artistic elite who seem to see something that many others simply don’t.

The tragedy of this sort of protest at a predetermined conclusion (Modi got elected, Modi is from the RSS, RSS founders admired Nazis, ergo, India is now fascist) is that it has broken India’s sense of itself in two.

Even with many regional parties, caste-based parties, and all the politics of its diversity, India seldom showed polarisation on the fundamental definitions of reality on such a scale ever before perhaps. Whether this polarisation is real, or the symptom of an age when the pervasiveness of the media, and the power of the media environment to turn into an echo chamber and feed a contrived public panic, as much of the U.S. media did before the Iraq war, is a question that needs honest debate, and often sadly missing in the war of clichés and slogans that TV debates dominated by party spokesmen rather than independent observers get reduced to.

No one can presume to instruct a fellow citizen on how much of a sense of belonging he ought to feel for the nation. But those citizens who have assumed a public role and who have become, either through desire or clever commercial craftsmanship, or both, conscience-figures for the nation, cannot shy away from the need to be responsible in their public pronouncements.

Even if critics of the Modi government insist that they are calling a party intolerant and not the nation, loose statements about wanting to flee India because it is becoming intolerant inevitably appear condescending and hurtful, and even hypocritical. There is a growing sense among people that essentially a small, privileged section of India’s intelligentsia, accustomed to living in some post-national or transnational space of selective identity politics, has turned increasingly inward and unresponsive to an India that may not have had the fine liberal arts education of the sort it did, but still believes, even if in simple language and terms, in a deeper kind of conscientiousness than what fashionable identity-based menus for protest might say.

Ordinary people

Many of the people upset by Aamir Khan’s statement are not innately minority-despising “intolerant” party-hacks but ordinary citizens who believe in an inclusive notion of India, and not some predetermined calculus about what identities are innately progressive and what identities are not. They see an India in which a very deep-rooted sense of acceptance, kindness, and patience helps it survive the chaos and struggle of the everyday. They live in an India where the basic goodness of its diverse people, and not the high distance of privilege, gives them their understanding of things like tolerance and intolerance. They might not have the sophisticated vocabulary for it, so they wave flags and say little more than simple patriotic slogans. But we cannot deny that they are from deep within a real India which knows itself very well. Meanwhile, though, the Neros and Batistas of our time, trapped in their palaces of high theory, cannot fathom this at all. Instead, they purport to destroy every drop of integrity and honesty in our discourse simply because their theories did not work out as planned.

(Vamsee Juluri is a professor of media studies at the University of San Francisco and the author of Rearming Hinduism.)

Aamir Khan's remarks: cult and conscience - The Hindu

This is not a valid argument at all. Saying that he should not be concerned because he has not been personally facing issues relating to intolerance is a stupid argument. We can be concerned about crimes and rapes in the country without being robbed and raped ourselves.
 
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It is a very well known fact that a very vocal bhakt population exists that participate in all online polls etc. to promote BJP whenever they can. BJP also has a social media cell that promotes it aggressively among this community. The flwo is like this:

TOI puts up poll
'BJP Fans' type Facebook pages immediately detect and ask members to participate
Members immediately flock and poll

You can't read anything into these polls anymore.

This is a much better line to take with disputing the result than the "22,000" is too tiny a sample for 1.25 billion people etc etc.

I mean we all know just how bad exit polls have often been too, and not just in India.

Discrepancies ultimately come from non-random factors like bias.

But that is a very deep and immense argument/debate by itself.

After all the bhakts will say that non-bhakts also rally to influence polls etc....and that was the ultimate reason when something does not go their way.

Who is to know for sure ultimately? Not me or you.
 
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