Modi to fast track Submarine acquisition

[Contrarian]

Vastly improved range my friend still does not equate to the footprint of a SSN, there is a reason that most countries which can graduate to SSNs do so, after a point absolute acoustic stealth is over taken by sheer persistence on station and the ability to bring to bear more munition than most conventional subs will carry on to a target. At the end of the day nothing stalks the blue better than a SSN, even with AIP fitment a conventional sub just does not have the carrying capacity for stores and logistics to dominate a body of water.

You have to realize that our situation is different from the West.
In our AOI, we always have land bases very close by.

Consider Pakistan and consider China. We have naval bases both near Pakistan and near Malacca. It is only US and UK and the likes who need more SSN"s than SSK's. Our battles are primarily littoral to medium.

We will always have a requirement of far more SSK's than SSN's.

 

[Dillinger]

You have to realize that our situation is different from the West.
In our AOI, we always have land bases very close by.

Consider Pakistan and consider China. We have naval bases both near Pakistan and near Malacca. It is only US and UK and the likes who need more SSN"s than SSK's. Our battles are primarily littoral to medium.

We will always have a requirement of far more SSK's than SSN's.

Not in the future, not when the Chinese CBG enters the IOR in say a decade's time, they don't need to enter our littorals to present a threat and consequently we will need to exit our littoral waters to shadow them. Our priorities are changing, why else do you think the IN has constituted the SPB for example and wishes to attain true amphib capabilities with LPD/LPHs, it is to be able to project force into the larger IOR in concert with CBGs and SSNs. In fact if we were interested in continuing to look after our littorals without increasing our footprint beyond said area then there was no need for carriers or phibs at all.

 

[Contrarian]

Not in the future, not when the Chinese CBG enters the IOR in say a decade's time, they don't need to enter our littorals to present a threat and consequently we will need to exit our littoral waters to shadow them. Our priorities are changing, why else do you think the IN has constituted the SPB for example and wishes to attain true amphib capabilities with LPD/LPHs, it is to be able to project force into the larger IOR in concert with CBGs and SSNs. In fact if we were interested in continuing to look after our littorals without increasing our footprint beyond said area then there was no need for carriers or phibs at all.

I think the Carriers are only effective against very less armed/less capable adversaries. Their use is mainly power projection.

However, what happens when the SSN's are needed in actual combat in littoral areas - which it would inevitably against the likes of Pakistan. There if left to their own devices they would be at a disadvantage vis-a-vis modern SSK's like U-214's.

Which is not to say SSN's are not required. They are..and critical for CBG's. But I think our more pressing needs are SSK's. Littoral domination before moving out.So more SSK's than SSN's per me.

 

[arp2041]

Modi can fast track it all he wants. Its just publicity.

Its not happening. There is severe depletion of treasury. The Govt has no money. They have to bring down the fiscal deficit first. I expect that this will not be signed before 3 years at the very least - when the fiscal deficit is below 3% and the Govt has money to spend.

Whatever be the case, I seriously believe that if Govt. (of whichever party it may be) really wants to ACHIEVE something, MONEY is the least concern in a country like INDIA.

Don't forget, when world was drowned in the biggest recession since 1929, we were making new records of SCAMS!!

 

[Contrarian]

Whatever be the case, I seriously believe that if Govt. (of whichever party it may be) really wants to ACHIEVE something, MONEY is the least concern in a country like INDIA.

Don't forget, when world was drowned in the biggest recession since 1929, we were making new records of SCAMS!!

You are wrong. Gross - I would say criminal - mismanagement of economy in the last 7 years has resulted in a situation where we absolutely find it hard to bring money to spend on defense.

If we are able to recover in the next 3 years, you would find taps opening again for big ticket defense projects.

However there is a golden rather than silver lining I think. Indigenous production has become a necessity in this scenario. What our policymakers shied away in the past, I think this financial crisis will force them to change and support domestic manufacturing out of necesssity.

 

[Dillinger]

I think the Carriers are only effective against very less armed/less capable adversaries. Their use is mainly power projection.

However, what happens when the SSN's are needed in actual combat in littoral areas - which it would inevitably against the likes of Pakistan. There if left to their own devices they would be at a disadvantage vis-a-vis modern SSK's like U-214's.

Which is not to say SSN's are not required. They are..and critical for CBG's. But I think our more pressing needs are SSK's. Littoral domination before moving out.So more SSK's than SSN's per me.

Oh there will always be more SSKs in our inventory than SSNs, no doubt about that.

But you cannot disregard our past actions, setting up an ELF facility (no one is going to do that unless you're looking to send out your boomers and LAM equipped SSNs far and wide, and it ain't cheap), move towards (RFI) much larger ampibs with a dedicated marine force, once you start investing in such assets it becomes clear that you are looking beyond the littoral.

 

[sancho]

Actually, I dont agree that we need a lot of SSN's.

The new diesel-electric subs with AIP are extremely good. They are far more silent than SSN's and with their range has vastly improved. Pretty good for independent action groups.

SSN's are today just needed to accompany a CBG or for extremely long distance patrols.
I'd argue we dont need more than 6-8 SSN's.

AIP is good, but only in certain situations, in diesel-electric mode, the subs will be more detectable than SSNs. The biggest advantage of an SSN is, to provide long range operation, at high speeds, compared to SSKs, since the latter can reach comparable endurance, but only at a fraction of the performance (20+knots of an SSN, less then 10knots of an SSK in AIP mode).
For the numbers, if we consider at least 1 x SSN for the 2 x CBGs and at least 1 x more in reserve, we need 4 for this role only. Western CBGs use even 2 x SSNs during war times, for each CBG and if we consider that we will need the bulk of the SSN fleet to operate beyond the IOR, we easily will need twice the number that you expect I would say.

 

[Contrarian]

AIP is good, but only in certain situations, in diesel-electric mode, the subs will be more detectable than SSNs. The biggest advantage of an SSN is, to provide long range operation, at high speeds, compared to SSKs, since the latter can reach comparable endurance, but only at a fraction of the performance (20+knots of an SSN, less then 10knots of an SSK in AIP mode).
For the numbers, if we consider at least 1 x SSN for the 2 x CBGs and at least 1 x more in reserve, we need 4 for this role only. Western CBGs use even 2 x SSNs during war times, for each CBG and if we consider that we will need the bulk of the SSN fleet to operate beyond the IOR, we easily will need twice the number that you expect I would say.

Since MoD has not given their Long term Plan, we can but speculate.
The last LTPP of 30 years has been a sham.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

The project to build the six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines, usually without nuclear-tipped missiles), in turn, is to be undertaken at the secretive ship-building centre (SBC) at Vizag.

 

[sancho]

Since MoD has not given their Long term Plan, we can but speculate.
The last LTPP of 30 years has been a sham.

But we do know IN's plan to induct 3 carriers including their CBG's, which means 3 to 6 x SSN's for sure. SSBNs operating abroad might get escorts too and we need SSNs operating independently in either sub hunting roles or in offensive strike attacks, beyond the IOR. The most important role IN will play in future is, to project power with SSNs and SSBNs and create a credible threat to China in case of an attack on us. This purpose also calls for more SSNs, while the "less important" operations around India, or the IOR of course can be taken over by modern SSKs.