MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract

[sancho]

With just upgraded Sukhoi engines? Not really fifth gen is it, then?

Why not? Doesn't it offer Supercruise and TVC capability? That's actually more "5th gen" than the F35 engine.

 

[airmarshal]

First of all Rafale is not for PAF we have enough in our Inventory to thrash paf anyday secondly we have seen many such BS article everday few day back nexus btw armlobist's and media was uncovered.

Keep your chest thumping within your borders. You cant fight us. If you were able to, you would have attacked after Mumbai drama or parliament attack drama.

Back to topic.

80 fighter aircraft wont be enough for a large country like India. Unless all 80 are going to stationed at bases close to Pakistan, which is most likely the case be the deal is 80 or 126.

Better than J 20 with crap AL 31 FN engines and F 35. This baby will come second to only F 22 and maybe F 35 in the long run. BTW how is your JF 17 Mard - e -Momin going to fight this bastard?

FGFA (Khali) vs JF 17 (Oneil)

JF-17 is an operational aircraft not a 'crap' as you call it. Actually you have lot of crap in old MiG-21s that you cant replace still. And where is Tejas by the way? Still not in production, aey?

Pakistan Air Force is well equipped within its resources. You have been talking about Rafales since I was a kid.

 

[Donatello]

Why not? Doesn't it offer Supercruise and TVC capability? That's actually more "5th gen" than the F35 engine.

A true fifth gen would not necessarily be TVC, but rather the ultimate stealth package. What does the aircraft have to conceal it self from the Radar and/or IR detectors? F/22 for example has it's engines designed from ground up just for that purpose, to not allow IR missiles an easy target recognition. US did that with the B2 (hidden engines) and F117, they have experience of dealing with it. You can't simply strap on a TVC engine and say it's more 5th Gen.

Then comes the biggest question of it's RCS and if any RAM coating (which is almost always found, (case in B2, F/22, JSF, F117 etc)

Last but not the least, the avionics, the pilot's controls and the radars and ecm all add up to make a 5th gen plane. Simply having clean shape doesn't cut it. You can call it low observable one, but not really stealth.

What i am talking about and am sure what Russians and Chinese would want, is the capability and package that is similar to F-22 Raptor

Current T/50, PAK FA etc doesn't offer that.

 

[NKVD]

Keep your chest thumping within your borders. You cant fight us. If you were able to, you would have attacked after Mumbai drama or parliament attack drama.

Back to topic.

80 fighter aircraft wont be enough for a large country like India. Unless all 80 are going to stationed at bases close to Pakistan, which is most likely the case be the deal is 80 or 126.

Deal is for 126 Plus plus More fighters maybe 180 Rafael's Confirmed By Related ministry official of Mod in News Debate himself.What Do you think what is the point of getting them build in India by Hal Firstplace if order is only for 80 fighters

 

[airmarshal]

'Fine I will admit early Mig-21 were 2nd generation but does it still change the fact that your claim for IAF's air superiority over PAF has been debunked? still over dosed with your delusional lados? and does it also change the fact that Mig-21 were destroyed by PAF which NEVER saw any action in 65?'

MiG-21s were destroyed on ground by Sabres in 1965 and in the air in 1971. These cowards cant fight! @Myth_buster_1

 

[NKVD]

'Fine I will admit early Mig-21 were 2nd generation but does it still change the fact that your claim for IAF's air superiority over PAF has been debunked? still over dosed with your delusional lados? and does it also change the fact that Mig-21 were destroyed by PAF which NEVER saw any action in 65?'

MiG-21s were destroyed on ground by Sabres in 1965 and in the air in 1971. These cowards cant fight! @Myth_buster_1

sir ji f-86 sarbe's were equipped with Aim sidewinders None of the Iaf fighter Back then were have missile firing Ability Back then
Technological Edge was with Paf those days very different from Current Situation

 

[sancho]

A true fifth gen would not necessarily be TVC, but rather the ultimate stealth package.

Now you talking about the fighter as such, but you earlier claimed that the "upgraded engine" would not be 5th gen. So i guess we can confirm now that the upgraded S117 is clearly not a problem for Russians Pak Fa, since it's capability wise superior to other stealth fighter engines. And TVC alone is not the point, but the SUPERCRUISE capability is!

Last but not the least, the avionics, the pilot's controls and the radars and ecm all add up to make a 5th gen plane.

Which again makes the Pak Fa superior to many other stealth fighters. It offers more and better passive detecion capabilities than the F22 and superior active detection capabilities that the F35. It comes with modern EW systems, similar to what the F35 offers (RWR, LWR, UV MAWS, DIRCM)

Simply having clean shape doesn't cut it. You can call it low observable one, but not really stealth.

And again a claim that can't hold it's on by plain logic, since it does offer comparable stealth features as similar stealth fighter. Be it the aligned forms (except of the engine coverings of the T50), internal fuel and weapon carriage, saw toothing...

The fact is, even the early Russian version will be a stealth fighter, with more 5th gen capabilities than the US stealth fighters, even if they didn't include all stealth features yet, but that's up to them isn't it?

 

[spectribution]

Keep your chest thumping within your borders. You cant fight us. If you were able to, you would have attacked after Mumbai drama or parliament attack drama.

Back to topic.

80 fighter aircraft wont be enough for a large country like India. Unless all 80 are going to stationed at bases close to Pakistan, which is most likely the case be the deal is 80 or 126.



JF-17 is an operational aircraft not a 'crap' as you call it. Actually you have lot of crap in old MiG-21s that you cant replace still. And where is Tejas by the way? Still not in production, aey?

Pakistan Air Force is well equipped within its resources. You have been talking about Rafales since I was a kid.

We have SU 30 MKI Asia's best dogfighter, MiG 21 Bison which can kick the snot out of your jf 17 and a load of upgraded mig 29 and mirage like MiG 29 UPG and Mirage 2000 Mk2 which can maul your F 16s like a tiger attacking a lamb.

We can kick your *** easily but unlike your "non state actors" we know that doing so will make our country as bad as yours which is point of no return.

 

[Donatello]

Now you talking about the fighter as such, but you earlier claimed that the "upgraded engine" would not be 5th gen. So i guess we can confirm now that the upgraded S117 is clearly not a problem for Russians Pak Fa, since it's capability wise superior to other stealth fighter engines. And TVC alone is not the point, but the SUPERCRUISE capability is!



Which again makes the Pak Fa superior to many other stealth fighters. It offers more and better passive detecion capabilities than the F22 and superior active detection capabilities that the F35. It comes with modern EW systems, similar to what the F35 offers (RWR, LWR, UV MAWS, DIRCM)


And again a claim that can't hold it's on by plain logic, since it does offer comparable stealth features as similar stealth fighter. Be it the aligned forms (except of the engine coverings of the T50), internal fuel and weapon carriage, saw toothing...

The fact is, even the early Russian version will be a stealth fighter, with more 5th gen capabilities than the US stealth fighters, even if they didn't include all stealth features yet, but that's up to them isn't it?

I think you are thinking way too much over something that has not proven yet. F-22 is a mature platform. PAK-FA is not. Whether we like it or not, doesn't change the facts. This is a Rafale thread, let's keep it that way.

 

[sancho]

I think you are thinking way too much over something that has not proven yet. F-22 is a mature platform. PAK-FA is not.

Proven doesn't make it more capable and won't change the fact that it lacks capabilities the Pak Fa will have.

Whether we like it or not, doesn't change the facts.

Exactly, that's why you points on the upgraded engine or certain capabilities were wrong, since the facts of Pak Fa are different, even if people don't like to admit it.

 

[Donatello]

Proven doesn't make it more capable and won't change the fact that it lacks capabilities the Pak Fa will have.


Exactly, that's why you points on the upgraded engine or certain capabilities were wrong, since the facts of Pak Fa are different, even if people don't like to admit it.

Capabilities PAK-FA will have? I mean, it is yet to be seen what the final version is, what the test results are. You can't harp about something that it will be in the future, certainly not when you are developing the next gen plane.

 

[sancho]

Capabilities PAK-FA will have? I mean, it is yet to be seen what the final version is, what the test results are.

Will have from what we already know! The S117 engine has proven Supercruise and TVC already and that is meant to be the base of the early Russian version. IRST, electro optics or AESA with side arrays, all developed as part of the production version and already available which makes it even superior to the F22 in these areas.

 

[Pakistanisage]

A Couple of Squadrons will do the trick....

 

[Myth_buster_1]

What left psychological effect was IN setting Karachi on fire, in tactical terms. In geographic terms, it was Pakistan losing
a half of it's land that left a defining mark, if not us taking 90,000+ of your troops as prisoners.

90k? If you wanna include civilians as military then go ahead and also ask yourself how many of these POW out of 90K were captured from western Pakistan. While you are at it do ask yourself why not that many were captured in 65 war. Perhaps its in Indian blood to take advantage of civil war and take pride at defeating weaker and vulnerable opponent since they get their butts kicked in conventional war.
Karachi on fire? more like naval vessels and depots which were destroyed by deadly accurate AShM which PAkistan never had. And its typical of newer deluded generation of loser bigger opponent to bring Bengladesh civil war PoWs in every debate which they have tendency to lose.

Sure, but their intended flight regime (where they gave their best performance) was subsonic, for F-86, it was in
transonic regimes. Hunter is also at it's most agile while subsonic, while Sabre gets it's best features like climb rate and
dash speed while in transonic regimes. This bit is freely available even on the official websites of these aircraft makers.
Know what your problem is? You always think you know everything and the other guy knows nothing.

The problem you have is you dont listen and you like to perceive the world according to your mental satisfaction. You obviously made a fool out of yourself which you are really good at and next time do proper homework kid.

Hawker Hunter Mk58
The Hawker Hunter is a transonic single seat fighter / ground attack
Max Speed: 620kts or 1148 kph and Supersonic in Shallow dive.

Breaking The Sound Barrier
Airplanes that have reached at least Mach 1 in dive
* Hawker Hunter
* Folland Gnat
Airplanes that have reached at least Mach 1 in level flight
* Dassault Mystere IV

[2.0] Hunter In British & Foreign Service
The Hunter performed outstanding service for the RAF, at least once all the deficiencies were worked out with the Hunter F.6. The RAF had operated Canadair-built Sabres for a short time as an interim solution until the Hunter came into service, and RAF pilots found the Hunter a considerable improvement over their Sabres.

That was not too surprising, since the Sabre in general was about a half-generation behind the Hunter. If the Sabre was comparable to the Soviet MiG-15, the Hunter was comparable to the MiG-15's substantially improved follow-on, the MiG-17, in terms of capability and performance, and the Hunter was much more rugged than the Sabre. It seems plausible that the last of the Sabre fighter series, the muscular-looking and more powerful F-86H, was more in a league with the Hunter, but the F-86H was not built in large numbers nor exported, and so that remains a subject for idle speculation.

Latin American users of the Hunter included Chile and Peru. Chile had hoped to obtain 25 F-86Fs from the US in the mid-1960s, but the deal fell through and they turned to the Hunter, which was superior to the Sabre anyway.

F-86

Maximum Speed: (at sea level) 1,100 Kmh
service ceiling: 49,000
rate of climb: 9,000 ft/min
Powerplant: 5,900
Trust/weight: 0.38


Hunter

Maximum Speed: (at sea level) 1,150 Kmh
service ceiling: 50,000
rate of climb: 17,200 ft/min
Powerplant: 10,145 lbf
Trust/weight: 0.56
Armament:

Mystere IV

Maximum Speed: (at sea level) 1,110 Kmh
service ceiling: 49,200 ft
rate of climb: 7,874
Powerplant: 7,716 lbr
Trust/weight: 0.46
Armament:

Gnat

Maximum Speed: (at sea level) 1,120 Kmh
service ceiling: 4,800
rate of climb: 10,000 ft/min
Powerplant: 4,700 lbf
Trust/weight: 0.56
Armament:


You need to back your claims with substantial evidence because no one here is interested in hearing your brain farts.

Maybe in a generalized way of looking at it. If you want to analyse history, learn to be more specific. IAF Hunters were
basically used for ground-attack missions, deep into enemy territory straight from the beginning to the closing stages
of the war, escorted by other fighters like Gnats. Yes, Gnats did give good performance against Sabres & other PAF aircraft even with the
apparent disadvantage in terms of missile armament.

An over dosed with delusional lados is going to talk about accuracy of history? People like you live on myths and I am here to bust those myths.
Just because Hunter were used for ground attack role does not make them any less capable dogfighter and its another story that these hunters on deep strike roles were either hunted or chased away and inflicted less damage then what they were capable of even with the fleet of 140! lol our less capable F-86 inflicted more damage on IAF bases then what entire IAF fleet could do to PAF other then brain fart and surrender to PAF fighters. Only 26 F-86 and 12 F-104 were capable of firing AIm-9B with 17% accuracy, and if you think that this force gives advantage over 600+ IAF fighter jets then you are nothing short of a fool.

As Hunters were indigenous, they may have proven to be cheaper to operate for them in the long run. Britain
had its own force structure quite unlike PAF or IAF. They had been building other, better aircraft to take up
the interceptor/air superiority role - like the English Electric Lightning.

So do you or do you not agree with the fact that Hunters were more capable fighter/ground attackers then sabre?

Mystere-IV was indeed a second-generation aircraft, not a second-generation jet aircraft. First-generation aircraft
means the propeller-driven planes of WW1/2. Thing is, both F-86 and Mystere-IV belong to the same generation, the second
generation of aircraft, the first generation of jet aircraft, contrary to what some misinformed/delusional uncle of your's had you believe.

It still does not change the fact that Mystere IV were more capable fighter jet which was half decade ahead of Sabre F.

Are you saying IAF did not secure complete air superiority over East Pakistan and forced PAF into a defensive role over West Pakistan by the end of the war?

No I am saying that incompetent IAF could not even destroy lone squadron of F-86 in east wing and instead were chased away untill last moment of the war by either aircraft itself or by ground.
what is astonishing is IAF had pitched Mig-21 Su-7 Hunters Gnat against sabre and still not managed to destroy even with so called air superiority IAF had in east wing.
And btw you need to learn one or two lesson on what air superiority is. IAF was chased away like flies from west wing and ran away like cowards.

Destroyed when?

PAF raid on pathankot based in start of 65 war turn out to be deadly which resulted in destruction of entire fleet which never saw any action and NEVER seen again.

...akin to F-86s equipped for air superiority shooting down Hunters equipped for ground attack. Apples & oranges.

So let me test you, which equipment IAF hunters carried which enabled them to dogfight? Carrying rockets and drop tanks does not put superior dogfighter to any disadvantage.

Sidewinder was still much better than the K-13 that IAF had.

So how the hell is 17% accuracy any better? You are just stubborn.

Have you ever heard of any instance since WW2 where a country wins the air war and yet loses the war?

Vietnam War you fool.

I haven't read much about 65 war (most of our aircraft were new & untested then), but I can talk about 71 for sure,
as I've read quite a bit.

Bring it on. Wait, a page of your uncle's pink diary does not count as a credible source.