MMRCA: Self Goal by IAF?

[Cat Shannon]

So the Rafale brings absolutely zero performance to the table over the LCA?



It's laughable that you talk about keeping budgets under control and then prescribe getting more MKIs to the IAF. The MKI, let's not forget, is not actually that much cheaper than the Rafale anymore (they will be upwards of $90MN a unit each now) but their life cycle costs are DRAMATICALLY more than the Rafale and the Su-30 is far less serviceable than the Rafale. If you're talking about bang for your buck and keeping high availability rates for the IAF then look no further than the Rafale, the MKI is a very capable machine but you can't have such a top-heavy airforce, it would bleed the IAF dry.

Not to mention that HAL is set to close their MKI production line in 2019 in order to re-tool for the FGFA's production, where are these extra MKIs going to come from?


As for the LCA, of course it will be ordered in large numbers (220+) BUT it will take until 2030 to reach this target whilst all 126 Rafales will be in service by 2025. As @Oscar pointed out, the IAF cannot wait that long- the MiG-21s should have been out of service a decade ago, you can't ask them to fly for another 15 years, this WILL kill more pilots and will cripple the IAF at a time when the PLAAF is modernising at a great pace.


As the IAF have said time and time again- the Rafale is the only option left on the table and it is vital, any of these other measures "experts" are suggesting would be simply disastrous.


Please explain how the IAF's plans or lack thereof have contributed to the delays in the LCA or the slow pace of Goi-Dassault talks?

They wanted the MiG-21s/27s gone in the 90s but there was no money (see the lost decade), then in the early 2000s they were looking to acquire 126 Mirage 2000-5s in a government to government deal to replace the MiGs but the GoI stalled this deal so the Mirage production line closed and the GoI instead on opening up the deal to allow multiple venders to take part- again, NOT the IAF's fault.



What is being exhibited here by a few members is sheer ignorance and misdirected anger/frustration.




What's that got to do with India?


Aside from the significant risk to the lives of the pilots (clearly one of the biggest concerns) if the Rafale deal is scrapped in favour of the LCA, but it will also leave a huge hole in the IAF's capabilities for a long time (a decade or so) and in this neighbourhood the IAF (a military force, tasked with defending their nation) cannot allow this situation to arise, they simply cannot.

i am not saying mmrca is iaf's fault. i know mmrca is a beaurocratic effort typical of anthony.

iaf's fault lies in not thinking ahead and arrainging for alternatives for things we import. iaf can't help with tejas..it abhors tejas. as a symbol of hatred towards hal. lot of bad blood. both sides.

ukraine ? see the fun. just because it hurts putin and chums today and they withdrew, doesn't mean ukraine doesn't live in russian fear.. we should find alternatives to all, every single nut and bolt which comes from ukraine. keep that option open. who should do that proactively ? mod ? iaf ? hal ? russians ? if i were arup raha, i would givre this task to a team from home base depot with knowledge and ask for a report within a month. forward it to mod with secrecy. talk to the alternate suppliers, act vague about a decision typical of india. then wait..you are ready.

iaf should do it. take the initiative. nobody else's life is on the line here.

 

[Abingdonboy]

ukraine ? see the fun. just because it hurts putin and chums today and they withdrew, doesn't mean ukraine doesn't live in russian fear.. we should find alternatives to all, every single nut and bolt which comes from ukraine.

Just what do you think India imports from Ukraine? The largest defence deal between India and Ukraine was for the upgrade of the IAF's An-32 fleet, other than that and a few turbine shafts for the navy there is little scope for India to be hurt too much by the current crisis.

iaf's fault lies in not thinking ahead and arrainging for alternatives for things we import. iaf can't help with tejas..it abhors tejas. as a symbol of hatred towards hal. lot of bad blood. both sides

A lot of nonsense there. Do you know the lead agency for the LCA is not HAL at all but ADA? Are you really trying to claim the IAF has deliberately scuppered the LCA for some petty issues they have? This is not how professional institutions behave and certainly not the military, the LCA had issues (that is it now overcoming) that had nothing to do with the IAF at all.

220+ LCAs will be inducted don't you worry about that.

 

[Cat Shannon]

Just what do you think India imports from Ukraine? The largest defence deal between India and Ukraine was for the upgrade of the IAF's An-32 fleet, other than that and a few turbine shafts for the navy there is little scope for India to be hurt too much by the current crisis.


A lot of nonsense there. Do you know the lead agency for the LCA is not HAL at all but ADA? Are you really trying to claim the IAF has deliberately scuppered the LCA for some petty issues they have? This is not how professional institutions behave and certainly not the military, the LCA had issues (that is it now overcoming) that had nothing to do with the IAF at all.

220+ LCAs will be inducted don't you worry about that.

i was going through something online which mentioned a lot more items. india is hoping to be neutral and do business with both. it won't work.

the less we import from them is better. is my point.

oh please iaf hated tejas from day one. not without reason. but hated. uninformed bias ? hell no...iaf is now enthusiastic about tejas and induct it enmasse. it wasn't till about 2010. but again, there were reasons. but then there was no cooperation with iaf from design stage, no ? take the navy, the naval design bureau designss it "according" to their needs. then it goes to the shipyard and it is constantly in touch with the builders. now take LCA..


everybody knows it is true. your spirited defense doesn't change facts mate !

anyway..this is a topic which will derail the topic. i'm sure if i don't get banned, we will come across it again.

 

[Skull and Bones]

This is list of countries that spend on R&D as percentage of their GDP. Go look where Qatar and India is.

List of countries by research and development spending - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IAF got to study ENTIRE generations of MIG, what did they do with that knowledge ?

Indian navy LM2500 propulsion engine is MADE IN INDIA under license.

For CIWS, AK-630 is MADE IN INDIA under license.

Even the blot you assume are not blot. That is why the IN is respected.

For absorbing technology we do not need MMRCA , we just need to contact those companies had ask our companies to pay money and get ToT.

If licence manufacturing is what you refer to as indigenous procurement, then MMRCA can very well be an indigenous product, so is Su-30MKI. Had navy been so self sufficient, there was no need to procure submarines or the Russian Krivak class from foreign vendors.

And i guess you're very good in being an idiot, or if you looked at the share holding pattern of Dassault or any other vendor for MMRCA, government has a considerable leverage in their decision making, and they won't sacrifice an avenue to earn profit from a prospective sale, than just give away their decades of technical know how for the price of peanuts.

 

[Sahasranama]

If licence manufacturing is what you refer to as indigenous procurement, then MMRCA can very well be an indigenous product, so is Su-30MKI. Had navy been so self sufficient, there was no need to procure submarines or the Russian Krivak class from foreign vendors.

And i guess you're very good in being an idiot, or if you looked at the share holding pattern of Dassault or any other vendor for MMRCA, government has a considerable leverage in their decision making, and they won't sacrifice an avenue to earn profit from a prospective sale, than just give away their decades of technical know how for the price of peanuts.

For those licence manufacturing the plants are BASED IN INDIA. And the IN did not have to pay a penny more. UNLIKE the IAF.

Su 30MKI was a good deal. Rafale is NOT. how many BILLIONS of $ did India pay Russia for ToT of Su 30MKI ? ...... exactly ZERO. See the difference ? Ever wonder why ?

IN has not reached 100% self sufficiency but its well on its way there. IAF is NOT.

India had to import Krivak class because Indian Govt. REFUSED to let private shipyard build Naval ships and the govt. shipyards were FULL with pending orders and slow execution. However Indian Navy continued to INSIST that private dockyards be given a chance that that is why today Project 75 I is going to be executed in a private shipyard.

That is why L&T spend BILLION on building a Shipyard without ANY orders. Because they trusted the IN, because IN has a reputation of supporting Indian Vendors at all cost. I can vouch for this personally based on my experiences with the IN and IAF.

No private company in India will extend that trust to IAF or IA. That is the reality.

 

[Bang Galore]

Su 30MKI was a good deal. Rafale is NOT.

Too many Rafale supporters make it about the aircraft, it being a good platform is mostly not questioned but the deal as currently in place is horrendous and that is something that should be apparent to any neutral observer.

 

[Sahasranama]

Too many Rafale supporters make it about the aircraft, it being a good platform is mostly not questioned but the deal as currently in place is horrendous and that is something that should be apparent to any neutral observer.

Exactly. Rafale is a great aircraft and I absolutely LOVE it. That does not mean we should buy it ! especially at such exorbitant cost and at the cost of Indian Industries.

Even today if GoI sanctions HALF that money to Indian Industries, they will go out there and get all the ToT in the world. .......... there is no need for MMRCA for doing that.

 

[Bang Galore]

Even today if GoI sanctions HALF that money to Indian Industries, they will go out there and get all the ToT in the world. .......... there is no need for MMRCA for doing that.

It's why we need to allow private manufactures in far more deeply. Where & how they get the tech should not be our concern, doing it through the public sector is almost impossible because of the many restrictions that connections to the government imposes on them. A private company can engage the services of consultants of any nationality to get the work done, buy or otherwise obtain technology that they need, that is clearly the best way to go. No point in talking about Indian private companies being motivated for profit, issues of national security etc when you are actually buying equipment from foreign private companies.

 

[Rafi]

The indian politico and the indian babu are the best friends, and force multipliers we ever had, long may it continue.

 

[Trawllu]

So the Rafale brings absolutely zero performance to the table over the LCA?

The Su30MKI + LCA combo makes Rafale irelevant

It's laughable that you talk about keeping budgets under control and then prescribe getting more MKIs to the IAF. The MKI, let's not forget, is not actually that much cheaper than the Rafale anymore (they will be upwards of $90MN a unit each now) but their life cycle costs are DRAMATICALLY more than the Rafale and the Su-30 is far less serviceable than the Rafale. If you're talking about bang for your buck and keeping high availability rates for the IAF then look no further than the Rafale, the MKI is a very capable machine but you can't have such a top-heavy airforce, it would bleed the IAF dry.

IAF wanted and needed and still need to buy single engine fighter - (mig 2000 in 2004) now they are going for Rafale a twin engine fighter so it will become for top heavy

The costs of Su30MKi are far less than Rafale

infact in costsof 1 rafale we can get 1 Su30 + 2 LCAs

The availability rates for entire fleet of Rafale for french AF is 44% while that for Su30 for IAF is 55%

Not to mention that HAL is set to close their MKI production line in 2019 in order to re-tool for the FGFA's production, where are these extra MKIs going to come from?

If the IAF orders more MKis then the line can be kept open for FGFA NEW LINES CAN be created

As for the LCA, of course it will be ordered in large numbers (220+) BUT it will take until 2030 to reach this target whilst all 126 Rafales will be in service by 2025. As @Oscar pointed out, the IAF cannot wait that long- the MiG-21s should have been out of service a decade ago, you can't ask them to fly for another 15 years, this WILL kill more pilots and will cripple the IAF at a time when the PLAAF is modernising at a great pace.

if IAF orders more, more can be produced in short time

but only of they order more

 

[Sahasranama]

infact in costs of 1 rafale we can get 1 Su30 + 2 LCAs

If the cost of Rafale deal is 22 Billion then it makes each Rafale cost 174.6 Million $.

For that price we can get,

2 Su 30MKI + 1 LCA or

1 Su 30 MKI + 4 LCA

 

[axisofevil]

What exactly has the IAF done wrong on the MMRCA front?

Understand this-

-THE IAF WANTED THE MIRAGE 2000-5 IN THE EARLY 2000s
-The GoI were the ones who opened the door to multiple venders and created the MMRCA procurment
-The IAF conducted the evaluations of the 6 fighters and then presented their findings to the GoI*
- The GoI* made their decision to down select the Rafale and EFT based on the IAF's findings
- The GoI* opened the sealed bids and found the Rafale to the ht cheaper bid and thus L1
- The GoI* entered into exclusive talks with Dassualt and are still going at them to this day for one reason or another

*GoI in this context indicates one specific ministry- the MoD.

Now tell me where the IAF's integrity or judgment can be called into question? They did their part incredibly well and throughly (receiving unanimous praise for their professional analysis and evaluations), what more do you want from them?

I was referring to the military in general. Have you ever heard the expresson " too many chiefs, not enough Indians?"



As you pointed out the better plane was clearly the EFT. The only reason we picked Rafale was on price. But look at the price now? The French have a nasty habit of escalating and delaying. On top of that, they counter supply Pakistan, in effect aiding the arms race.

Anyway, tell me why did you rant with me? I made one post here that has nothing to do with what you stated?

If the cost of Rafale deal is 22 Billion then it makes each Rafale cost 174.6 Million $.

For that price we can get,

2 Su 30MKI + 1 LCA or

1 Su 30 MKI + 4 LCA

LOL for that price we can buy AMERICAN

 

[Sahasranama]

LOL for that price we can buy AMERICAN

Never buy American, not unless you want to hand over your balls on a sliver platter to a brute who has no qualms about squeezing it and making you dance to his whims.

 

[C130]

Never buy American, not unless you want to hand over your balls on a sliver platter to a brute who has no qualms about squeezing it and making you dance to his whims.

don't think it's that bad as you make out.

kinda sad F-18 SH wasn't chosen over the Rafale and even the EFT.
the SH engine the F-414 is also used on the Tejas MKII wonder if license production of the F-414 would of been possible

102 F-18E/F + 24 EA-18G Growlers $50 to $80 million a piece
-spare F-414 engines and AESA radars
-1000 AIM-120D AMRAAMS
-1000 AIM-9X block 2 or 3
-250 AGM-88E HARM
-200 AGM-84 HARPOON
-license production of JDAM kits
and what ever else

 

[Sahasranama]

don't think it's that bad as you make out.

kinda sad F-18 SH wasn't chosen over the Rafale and even the EFT.
the SH engine the F-414 is also used on the Tejas MKII wonder if license production of the F-414 would of been possible


View attachment 139846

102 F-18E/F + 24 EA-18G Growlers $50 to $80 million a piece
-spare F-414 engines and AESA radars
-1000 AIM-120D AMRAAMS
-1000 AIM-9X block 2 or 3
-250 AGM-88E HARM
-100 AGM-HARPOON
-license production of JDAM kits
and what ever else

I am not saying that US goodies are not Affordable or Good.

Its just a BAD idea to buy US defence goods due to strings attached and US propensity for pulling them. India should stick to buying microsoft OS and Office, not Aircraft's or Helicopters.