MMRCA aircrafts to be deployed to face chinese threat in North East !!

[conworldus]

I completely agree. But its a longshot. Coz the gripen doesn't give us any dimplomatic advantages. Its sad really.

How about just make a decision. India is losing credibility fast among the companies. Next time they are going to ask for a security deposit before committing any resources to the bidding process.

 

[nietzche]

How about just make a decision. India is losing credibility fast among the companies. Next time they are going to ask for a security deposit before committing any resources to the bidding process.

Yes, a decision should be made quickly..I guess expected by Q2-Q3 of this year. Considering the size of the deal every effort will be made to maximize ROI from the strategic to the tactical and technological.

Considering the topic of this thread , the IAF would want flexibility in the China theatre. Considering the nature of the terrain and the infrastructure or lack of on the Indian side of the LAC , air power provides the military significant operational flexibility and opportunities. Dominance of the battle air space is hardly assured in this theatre compared to the western one. An attritional air battle is likely considering the lack of clear technological superiority among the combatant air forces. However an attritional battle will eventually see the PLAAF gain a clear upperhand due to the breadth and depth of the Chinese aerospace industry compared to the Indian one. This scenario would obviously get reversed on the western front.

The writing is on the wall- the arrival of the J20 shows a technological lead that would negate Indian aircraft imports including the FGFA when it comes in. The Chinese have home grown technology and would possibly deploy more than the 147 F22s by the 2020-2025 time frame if not earlier. Indian imports will likely face a death spiral.India must harness every iota of National Will to face this challenge otherwise the future is bleak.

On this Republic Day it would be wise to remember Nehru - "To be secure on land we must be supreme on the seas" to which must be added "to be secure on the seas control the skies"

 

[sancho]

How about just make a decision. India is losing credibility fast among the companies. Next time they are going to ask for a security deposit before committing any resources to the bidding process.

Actually, the recent delays are caused by companies like Mig, or Saab, that wasn't able to field their fighters to the trials in time.

Dominance of the battle air space is hardly assured in this theatre compared to the western one. An attritional air battle is likely considering the lack of clear technological superiority among the combatant air forces. However an attritional battle will eventually see the PLAAF gain a clear upperhand due to the breadth and depth of the Chinese aerospace industry compared to the Indian one. This scenario would obviously get reversed on the western front.

Actually that is the key point in MMRCA, IAF will never counter the numerical superiority of PLAAF, therefor the addition of technological superior fighters, weapons, or techs is a logical step for deterrance. It was Chinas military build up that caused even the re-think of the leaders and forces. Without placing missiles and troops in Tibet, or massive build up of infrastructure I bet we would have gone with Mirage 2000-5s long ago.

The writing is on the wall- the arrival of the J20 shows a technological lead that would negate Indian aircraft imports including the FGFA when it comes in. The Chinese have home grown technology and would possibly deploy more than the 147 F22s by the 2020-2025 time frame if not earlier. Indian imports will likely face a death spiral.India must harness every iota of National Will to face this challenge otherwise the future is bleak.

That's a misconception imo, because although there is no doubt that the Chinese Aero industry has a lead over Indian (and I stated this often before), it is more than obvious that they had and still have massive input of foreign developments, while still facing similar problems like India does in the engine developments.
Anybody that looks at J20 without bias, must admit that the nose, cockpit section is more than just close resembling the F22, just like the delta canard design and the back part is more than resembling the Mig 1.44 and that's not even meant in a bad way, but shows where they got influence, or even help from. It is well known that Russian companies like Mig has good relations to China and the Mig 1.44 was their offer for the NG Russian fighter, that lost to Sukhois design. It was expected for years, that Mig sold the design, or developments parts to China and even all the amateur PS and graphics on the net, that guessed the look of the coming Chinese stealth fighter, took that Mig design as the base.

However, what is impressing is the pace that China obviously has in the development of J20, with the first flight only a year after T-50 and even look (at least from what we can see so far) looks like they are at a further development stage than Russia, because T-50 is clearly still an early prototype yet. I think that money is the biggest advantage for China here, but besides of J20 I still say J10B will be the development to see how far China catched up to Russia, or the western countries.
J10B imo will have the most ammount of own developments like design changes for lower RCS, AESA radar, or indigenous engine in high numbers, all in all a 4.5 gen fighter comparable to MMRCAs. Stealth design of J20 is one thing, but a stealth fighter is nothing without NG radar, avionics, or engines and J10B is the key to that.
I also expect more J10, or J11Bs on the Indo - Chinese borders than J20, because the US, South Korean and Japanese fighters are the main threat for China, that's why they will be placed mainly on their eastern borders anyway. Not to mention that an 5. gen figther for India will take quiet some time to arrive to pose a threat to PLAAF.
China is clearly pushing to the top in all fields, but also still has to learn a lot to be comparable to western countries in the aero field.

Btw, in generall I find it very interesting that Asia is not only catching up to Europe so fast, but in some fields even overtaking them so easily. By 2025 China, Russia, Japan, India and South Korea will field own stealth fighters, or even UCAVs and be at least on par with Europe!

 

[GodlessBastard]

Question:

require to carry lot of internal fuel
heavy air to air weapons combo
twin engine aircraft


Now answer which one fits the description most.?

The one and only Su-30MKI.

Our flankers can stay in the air for 10-12 hours at a time, fly up to 8,000 km with aerial refeuling, and can carry an extremely lethal mix of A2A and A2G weaponry on its 12 hardpoints.

None of the MMRCA on the table can offer these kind of capabilities.

The Su-30MKI is the perfect aircraft for patrolling and maintaining aerial vilgilance over the mountainous and expansive Sino-Indian border. The MMCRA, if deployed in the Northeast, would serve mainly in the A2G role and as secondary air fighters.

The IAF should focus on expanding airbases in the Northeast to accomodate more Flankers. The MMRCAs would be a welcome addition and can replace the existing MiG-21s and -27s, but the Flankers will be the real meat of the Northeast Air .

 

[nietzche]

Actually, the recent delays are caused by companies like Mig, or Saab, that wasn't able to field their fighters to the trials in time.

Actually that is the key point in MMRCA, IAF will never counter the numerical superiority of PLAAF, therefor the addition of technological superior fighters, weapons, or techs is a logical step for deterrance. It was Chinas military build up that caused even the re-think of the leaders and forces. Without placing missiles and troops in Tibet, or massive build up of infrastructure I bet we would have gone with Mirage 2000-5s long ago.

The technological superiority on which the IAF is betting on re the MRCA to counter the PLAAF build up is partly flawed since the Chinese are obviously maturing fast in that area. Compound the decreasing technological gap with an existing and increasing ability to deploy vast quantities quickly the future of any air battles in the eastern theatre can be discerned. The PLAAF can recuperate its losses quicky the IAF does not have that luxury. Quantity does have a Quality all its own.

That's a misconception imo, because although there is no doubt that the Chinese Aero industry has a lead over Indian (and I stated this often before), it is more than obvious that they had and still have massive input of foreign developments, while still facing similar problems like India does in the engine developments.
Anybody that looks at J20 without bias, must admit that the nose, cockpit section is more than just close resembling the F22, just like the delta canard design and the back part is more than resembling the Mig 1.44 and that's not even meant in a bad way, but shows where they got influence, or even help from. It is well known that Russian companies like Mig has good relations to China and the Mig 1.44 was their offer for the NG Russian fighter, that lost to Sukhois design. It was expected for years, that Mig sold the design, or developments parts to China and even all the amateur PS and graphics on the net, that guessed the look of the coming Chinese stealth fighter, took that Mig design as the base.

Foreign influence on both aerospace industries exist. Russian influence is obvious.But aren't Russian engineers in Nasik just as they are in Chengdu? The Chinese have done well considering that a far more pervasive tech embargo is in place against them compared to India.

The similarities between the F22, the Article1.44 and the J20 are there . The J10 is also a variation of the basic Israeli Lavi design.Similar design problems also do lead to similar solutions.Overt and covert methods are ofcourse also par for this game. Chinese perfection of the Long March and the on going case of espionage against a B2 designer are also examples.

Doesn't stop India from doing so. What matters is having the knowhow so that strategic and tactical objectives and results are achieved.Consider the Pakistani acquisition of WMDs & delivery from SiNoko. That has certainly played a part in maintaining its strategic equilibrium vis-a-vis India and at the same time providing enough leeway to wage a proxy war under the Nuclear overhang - a Pakistani version of Cold start.Ultimately what is good for the goose must be good for the gander.

However, what is impressing is the pace that China obviously has in the development of J20, with the first flight only a year after T-50 and even look (at least from what we can see so far) looks like they are at a further development stage than Russia, because T-50 is clearly still an early prototype yet. I think that money is the biggest advantage for China here, but besides of J20 I still say J10B will be the development to see how far China catched up to Russia, or the western countries.
J10B imo will have the most ammount of own developments like design changes for lower RCS, AESA radar, or indigenous engine in high numbers, all in all a 4.5 gen fighter comparable to MMRCAs. Stealth design of J20 is one thing, but a stealth fighter is nothing without NG radar, avionics, or engines and J10B is the key to that.
I also expect more J10, or J11Bs on the Indo - Chinese borders than J20, because the US, South Korean and Japanese fighters are the main threat for China, that's why they will be placed mainly on their eastern borders anyway. Not to mention that an 5. gen figther for India will take quiet some time to arrive to pose a threat to PLAAF.
China is clearly pushing to the top in all fields, but also still has to learn a lot to be comparable to western countries in the aero field.

Agreed the tech lead there is fast shrinking.The Chinese are facing similar problems but are ahead in the game.Development of both the WS10 & 15 are in advanced stages if not yet operational.Same goes for radars and other subsystems. China will soon be able to deploy say a 75-80% indigenous aircraft with progressive localization.Current or expected deployment patterns are meaningless as air power is inherently flexible to meet operational requirements. IAF will structure itself considering worst case scenarios and desirable objectives which would mean parity in the eastern sector and dominance in the western one. The MRCA in that regard will have only a very short period especially in the east if at all.

Btw, in generall I find it very interesting that Asia is not only catching up to Europe so fast, but in some fields even overtaking them so easily. By 2025 China, Russia, Japan, India and South Korea will field own stealth fighters, or even UCAVs and be at least on par with Europe!

Agreed, it will be interesting to see how it pans out and will have some bearing on the future map. Strategically the western powers have moved the equilibrium towards the east in the last 2 decades reversing the losses from post mid 20th Century with the dismantling of the Soviets, occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan, the EU's broadened base with ex-Warsaw pact countries, their challenge to Russia in the Central Asian stans and ofcourse their leverage over Pakistan. The geopolitical map is starting to look like it was half a century ago.

 

[IndianTiger]

I 100 % agree with you...India and China are mature enough to not risk it....but then if your point is to be belived then what is it with Tawang then ?

China is mature what ur saying man they banned google earth only because google earth was showing Tawang as part of india,
china not permitting visas to indian officials serving arunachal..
and you are saying they are mature..
correct me if I am wrong..

 

[sancho]

Quantity does have a Quality all its own.

Fair enough!

Foreign influence on both aerospace industries exist. Russian influence is obvious.But aren't Russian engineers in Nasik just as they are in Chengdu? The Chinese have done well considering that a far more pervasive tech embargo is in place against them compared to India.

The similarities between the F22, the Article1.44 and the J20 are there . The J10 is also a variation of the basic Israeli Lavi design.Similar design problems also do lead to similar solutions.Overt and covert methods are ofcourse also par for this game. Chinese perfection of the Long March and the on going case of espionage against a B2 designer are also examples.

I didn't said India had no help, just pointed out that China didn't developed the fighter alone, because no matter how fast they are improving, they aren't at that level now.
I respect what they achieved without "direct" foreign help, but on the other hand, it's obvious that they still rely to these indirect influence. Be it copies of Russian Flankers, the Levi development that obviously is the base for J10, or the similarities of J20, all had foreign input, no matter in what way. China is still trying to catch up at 4.5 gen techs and developments what J11B/J10B shows, India in that case is only half a gen away LCA MK1 (4th gen), so the gap between these 2 is not as far as the gap between China and Russia, or western countries like the US. I don't think India will catch up to China anytime soon in this area, but the aim must be to not widen the gap too much and that's where the advantage of foreign ToT, or co-developments for us comes in. That's also a reason why MMRCA, or the co-developments in regard to Tejas MK2 will be so important for our own industry, because the more we can gain from them and western input, the faster we can keep up with China. Indigenous developments alone will not help us here and will make us fall even further behind.

Regarding the advantage of MMRCA to Chinese counterparts, I do think J10B will be a problem, especially in numbers and there is no doubt about MMRCAs to be way costlier, but PLAAF will need quiet some time to get equally good fighters, arms, or techs like the Eurocanards and the advantages they offer. They are neccesary bridge to the next level of fighters (as I said, if China didn't went to a more aggressive policy towards our borders, I bet we just have bought cheaper stop gaps), but now they are needed to increase capabilities for IAF, as well our industry.

 

[CardSharp]

China is still trying to catch up at 4.5 gen techs and developments what J11B/J10B shows, India in that case is only half a gen away LCA MK1 (4th gen), so the gap between these 2 is not as far as the gap between China and Russia, or western countries like the US.

I'd not say India has master 4th gen aircraft until the LCA is actually in service with an indigenous engine.

 

[sancho]

I'd not say India has master 4th gen aircraft until the LCA is actually in service with an indigenous engine.

Neither would I, but we are working on it, like you are working on 4.5 gen J11 and J10 Bs. When we go to 4.5 gen LCA MK2, you will go to 5. gen J20...
So the gap is only a half generation now and to keep up with you in the meantime, we add 4.5 gen MMRCAs and later co-developed FGFAs with Russia. From 2025 onwards, we might be able to develop indigenous fighters, just like you will.

 

[CardSharp]

Neither would I, but we are working on it, like you are working on 4.5 gen J11 and J10 Bs. When we go to 4.5 gen LCA MK2, you will go to 5. gen J20...
So the gap is only a half generation now and to keep up with you in the meantime, we add 4.5 gen MMRCAs and later co-developed FGFAs with Russia. From 2025 onwards, we might be able to develop indigenous fighters, just like you will.

Both the J-11 and J-10 are in service with indigenous engines. The J-20 has just flown with a native engine.

 

[sancho]

Both the J-11 and J-10 are in service with indigenous engines. The J-20 has just flown with a native engine.

But only the A versions (4th gen) are available in high numbers and if I'm not wrong the indigenous engines still has some issues, that's why Russian engines will still be imported right?
Hehe, some Russians I talked with on another forum would tell you something else about that navtive engine on J20, I wait for the operational version and official specs. There is still too much speculation about it, just like about T-50.

 

[Frankenstein]

lol, have they decided, which aircraft they are going to have, yet??

 

[CardSharp]

But only the A versions (4th gen) are available in high numbers and if I'm not wrong the indigenous engines still has some issues, that's why Russian engines will still be imported right?
Hehe, some Russians I talked with on another forum would tell you something else about that navtive engine on J20, I wait for the operational version and official specs. There is still too much speculation about it, just like about T-50.

By looking at the photos, it seems that the J-20 was tested using both a native and Russian engine.

Also would you expect the Russians to go out of their way to praise the J-20 or Chinese efforts at indigenisation?

 

[IND151]

i didn't expect that MMRCA aircrafts will be be deployed to face chinese threat in North East. i thought this job will be given lca and new version of SU 30 MKI. anyway best luck to IAF!

 

[Srinivas]

The technological superiority on which the IAF is betting on re the MRCA to counter the PLAAF build up is partly flawed since the Chinese are obviously maturing fast in that area. Compound the decreasing technological gap with an existing and increasing ability to deploy vast quantities quickly the future of any air battles in the eastern theatre can be discerned. The PLAAF can recuperate its losses quicky the IAF does not have that luxury. Quantity does have a Quality all its own.




Foreign influence on both aerospace industries exist. Russian influence is obvious.But aren't Russian engineers in Nasik just as they are in Chengdu? The Chinese have done well considering that a far more pervasive tech embargo is in place against them compared to India.

The similarities between the F22, the Article1.44 and the J20 are there . The J10 is also a variation of the basic Israeli Lavi design.Similar design problems also do lead to similar solutions.Overt and covert methods are ofcourse also par for this game. Chinese perfection of the Long March and the on going case of espionage against a B2 designer are also examples.

Doesn't stop India from doing so. What matters is having the knowhow so that strategic and tactical objectives and results are achieved.Consider the Pakistani acquisition of WMDs & delivery from SiNoko. That has certainly played a part in maintaining its strategic equilibrium vis-a-vis India and at the same time providing enough leeway to wage a proxy war under the Nuclear overhang - a Pakistani version of Cold start.Ultimately what is good for the goose must be good for the gander.






Agreed the tech lead there is fast shrinking.The Chinese are facing similar problems but are ahead in the game.Development of both the WS10 & 15 are in advanced stages if not yet operational.Same goes for radars and other subsystems. China will soon be able to deploy say a 75-80% indigenous aircraft with progressive localization.Current or expected deployment patterns are meaningless as air power is inherently flexible to meet operational requirements. IAF will structure itself considering worst case scenarios and desirable objectives which would mean parity in the eastern sector and dominance in the western one. The MRCA in that regard will have only a very short period especially in the east if at all.




Agreed, it will be interesting to see how it pans out and will have some bearing on the future map. Strategically the western powers have moved the equilibrium towards the east in the last 2 decades reversing the losses from post mid 20th Century with the dismantling of the Soviets, occupation of Iraq, Afghanistan, the EU's broadened base with ex-Warsaw pact countries, their challenge to Russia in the Central Asian stans and ofcourse their leverage over Pakistan. The geopolitical map is starting to look like it was half a century ago.

1) The MMRCA is to gain western tech and then build the Indian Aero space Industry.
2) These planes are for countering China and to get the fighters in short span of time say 2015 India do need more supply lines for that it had to depend on foreign country.
3) After the procurement of MMRCA indian aerospace industry will be on par with that of Chinese with enough fighter jets to counter China.