MKE Rushes Delivery of MPT-76 Rifles

[Yatağanlı]

Do Common used assault rifles for ordinary privates have to have high quality or high accuracy or lifespan?
İ think no. E.g. AK 47

If MKEK can produce cheap and reliable in the conditions that TSK requires , for me MKEK fullfits its duty.
Hk416 has refused by Bundeswehr due-to high costs but Turkey can arm its army with MPT .
it has two meaning:
1)Turkey has more defense budget.
2)MPT is cheaper and has less quality than original HK416.
Thus cheap and reliable in some number of lifespan assault rifle is needed for every army.
We dont expect anything more than what MPT is.
İ am for even stamped receiver chep ak clones.

Modern warware is much more focussed on the individual capabilities of the solider, and less on mass. Therefore, the importance of the quality of a rifle has increased. You have a valid point though. The Allies in ww2 won with equipment of mediocre quality. But nowadays, armies are smaller and more built on individual expertise.

 

[UkroTurk]

İn my opinion , as far as i heard bullpup concept is not reliable though high french enginering distributes a lot of things the FA-MAS.
22LR, 9x19mm , sword and arrow cant kill in todays modern battles.

Modern warware is much more focussed on the individual capabilities of the solider, and less on mass. Therefore, the importance of the quality of a rifle has increased. You have a valid point though. The Allies in ww2 won with equipment of mediocre quality. But nowadays, armies are smaller and more built on individual expertise.

Thanks for your precious comment .
İ would like to recall that Turkey is going to arm app. 500000 soldiers by this MPT
We arenot going to arm just some special forces by mpt.
This MPT will be for all Army!

 

[LegionnairE]

İn my opinion , as far as i heard bullpup concept is not reliable though high french enginering distributes a lot of things the FA-MAS.
22LR, 9x19mm , sword and arrow cant kill in todays modern battles.

They can.

The difference is ballistic performance, maximum range, effective range, the range in which the bullet tumbles inside the victim, etc.

There are also matters of recoil management, bullet weight, muzzle velocity and many other parameters to consider

talking about this with terms such as "can kill" or "can't kill" is frankly elementary.

But most importantly, Turkey has a lot to gain from simplifying the logistics by getting rid of all the calibers and standardizing one caliber.

One caliber, to rule them all.

6.8 spc

 

[UkroTurk]

Is there any complaint about 5.56mm caliber from JÖH and PÖH who have been using this caliber against terorists in the fields , at the mountains?

 

[kartal1]

Is there any complaint about 5.56mm caliber from JÖH and PÖH who have been using this caliber against terorists in the fields , at the mountains?

If they would have any complain from 5.56 it would only be the range and the punching power that the bullet is giving to the target but POH and JOH are not regular infantry. POH and JOH are direct action forces that are trained in higher standards that gives them the opportunity to come close to the enemy so 7.62x51 is not so needed as a standard rifle. Also the tactics that POH and JOH are using are different and require high mobility and thats why I would go for 5.56 because of the lower weight. One of the most important areas of operations of POH and JOH and especially POH is in urban environment where 7.62x51 can do more bad than good. The ammo capacity, the speed of the bullet and also the recoil recovery are critical in urban warfare because the chance that there is civilians in the area is higher and also the precision you have must be higher. You cant spray bullets as you wish in the urban environment so the balance between high firepower and precision must be maintained and I am not even mentioning to maintain it from a different fire stances with 7.62x51. The most rifles that are caliber 7.62x51 also cant give you the comfort of higher capacity mags than 20 without sacrificing from the weight and the mobility that I would get from 5.56 rifle. JOH are acting more in the mountain areas where there is very high chance of encountering enemy caves and believe me you dont want to clean that cave with 7.62x51 rifle. Also because of the branch, the area of operations and the training and moving capabilities they receive sometimes you are getting in situations where you must use rock climbing techniques that require high mobility and good physical fitness levels. I would not want to climb a rock with 5kg rifle and its heavy ammo (7.62x51) while having already heavy equipment on me. For the normal infantry and conscripts yes it could be useful. They can fire on the enemy from bigger distances and not getting in so close contact. Also the maneuvering required from the normal infantry guy is not like the maneuvering required from commando brigades and JOH. I think POH and JOH would not like to have 7.62x51 as standard rifles.

 

[LegionnairE]

Is there any complaint about 5.56mm caliber from JÖH and PÖH who have been using this caliber against terorists in the fields , at the mountains?

JÖH and PÖH aren't gunsmiths or designers or engineers. If you don't know a better concept, if you can't imagine something better then you won't complain about what you have.

right now we have exactly one zillion types of ammunition.

It makes the logistics more difficult, there's no part interchangeability between the various rifles we have, it makes the rifle repair more difficult, it makes training more difficult, etc.

I can imagine a better world.

 

[Yatağanlı]

JÖH and PÖH aren't gunsmiths or designers or engineers. If you don't know a better concept, if you can't imagine something better then you won't complain about what you have.

right now we have exactly one zillion types of ammunition.

It makes the logistics more difficult, there's no part interchangeability between the various rifles we have, it makes the rifle repair more difficult, it makes training more difficult, etc.

I can imagine a better world.

Agreed. Modern assault rifles are very modular and can often be changed into a different caliber. IN 5 minutes, you can make a 5.56 caliber carbine into an 7.62 DMR. This is what we need.

 

[Bismarck]

Agreed. Modern assault rifles are very modular and can often be changed into a different caliber. IN 5 minutes, you can make a 5.56 caliber carbine into an 7.62 DMR. This is what we need.

Or a rifle which can use both caliber.

 

[Jackal131]

Speaking from experience. 5.56 is a poor caliber outside of 100 meters. Not a well discussed fact but still a FACT. After 100m 5.56 standard issue can no longer perform its key characteristics.

Let me explain in short notes from experience what happens to 5.56 standard issue ammunition once the target is beyond 100m. Every point below applies to Beyond 100m.
2 key topics - Stability and Velocity.

1. 5.56 over-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue / and under-stabilizes when it hits hard surface. This means when it hits flesh, it stabilizes itself even more, no tumble or yaw. When it hits things like walls, it tumbles/yaws. What good is a round that no longer flies point first when it hits soft vehicles/doors/walls/body armor etc. Compare this issue to Russian 5.45 (which is far superior when it comes to combat application). The Russian 5.45 under-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue, and over stabilizes when it hits hard surface. So if Russian 5.45 hits flesh it tumbles/yaws causing severe trauma often requiring field hospital treatment/death. When it hits walls, doors, body armor, it over stabilizes and stays flying straight wit its tip pointed forward - increasing penetration capability. Which round would you prefer to shoot at someone in a house or wearing armor with ?
2. Now before someone brings up the 5.56 rounds key advantage, fragmentation on impact on soft tissue. Let me inform you, this no longer occurs beyond 100m. After a 100m the velocity is lost to force the round to strip its jacket on impact with soft tissue. So the round punches a tiny clean hole in soft tissue. This is why you hear stories of taliban etc getting up and fighting after getting hit. Its because the 5.56 has lost the velocity to fragment inside the flesh and has gone straight through them causing minor injury that stitches can fix (as long as organs weren't hit etc)

The above are the direct findings of testing completed in 4th Army in 2009/2010 on all calibers in use in TR military and also some extra calibers that are encountered in the calibers.

The only reason our military uses 5.56 in some applications where as others have pointed out here 7.62 is not a good choice, is because of logistics and logistics alone. That is all.

If it were logistically feasible to change to something that provided the same advantages as a light round like the 5.56 when it comes to ergonomics and ease of use/carraige. It would be adopted. We simply dont have any other option.

 

[kartal1]

Speaking from experience. 5.56 is a poor caliber outside of 100 meters. Not a well discussed fact but still a FACT. After 100m 5.56 standard issue can no longer perform its key characteristics.

Let me explain in short notes from experience what happens to 5.56 standard issue ammunition once the target is beyond 100m. Every point below applies to Beyond 100m.
2 key topics - Stability and Velocity.

1. 5.56 over-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue / and under-stabilizes when it hits hard surface. This means when it hits flesh, it stabilizes itself even more, no tumble or yaw. When it hits things like walls, it tumbles/yaws. What good is a round that no longer flies point first when it hits soft vehicles/doors/walls/body armor etc. Compare this issue to Russian 5.45 (which is far superior when it comes to combat application). The Russian 5.45 under-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue, and over stabilizes when it hits hard surface. So if Russian 5.45 hits flesh it tumbles/yaws causing severe trauma often requiring field hospital treatment/death. When it hits walls, doors, body armor, it over stabilizes and stays flying straight wit its tip pointed forward - increasing penetration capability. Which round would you prefer to shoot at someone in a house or wearing armor with ?
2. Now before someone brings up the 5.56 rounds key advantage, fragmentation on impact on soft tissue. Let me inform you, this no longer occurs beyond 100m. After a 100m the velocity is lost to force the round to strip its jacket on impact with soft tissue. So the round punches a tiny clean hole in soft tissue. This is why you hear stories of taliban etc getting up and fighting after getting hit. Its because the 5.56 has lost the velocity to fragment inside the flesh and has gone straight through them causing minor injury that stitches can fix (as long as organs weren't hit etc)

The above are the direct findings of testing completed in 4th Army in 2009/2010 on all calibers in use in TR military and also some extra calibers that are encountered in the calibers.

The only reason our military uses 5.56 in some applications where as others have pointed out here 7.62 is not a good choice, is because of logistics and logistics alone. That is all.

If it were logistically feasible to change to something that provided the same advantages as a light round like the 5.56 when it comes to ergonomics and ease of use/carraige. It would be adopted. We simply dont have any other option.

Where have you been so much time? We missed you and your analyzes .

 

[LegionnairE]

Speaking from experience. 5.56 is a poor caliber outside of 100 meters. Not a well discussed fact but still a FACT. After 100m 5.56 standard issue can no longer perform its key characteristics.

Let me explain in short notes from experience what happens to 5.56 standard issue ammunition once the target is beyond 100m. Every point below applies to Beyond 100m.
2 key topics - Stability and Velocity.

1. 5.56 over-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue / and under-stabilizes when it hits hard surface. This means when it hits flesh, it stabilizes itself even more, no tumble or yaw. When it hits things like walls, it tumbles/yaws. What good is a round that no longer flies point first when it hits soft vehicles/doors/walls/body armor etc. Compare this issue to Russian 5.45 (which is far superior when it comes to combat application). The Russian 5.45 under-stabilizes when it hits soft tissue, and over stabilizes when it hits hard surface. So if Russian 5.45 hits flesh it tumbles/yaws causing severe trauma often requiring field hospital treatment/death. When it hits walls, doors, body armor, it over stabilizes and stays flying straight wit its tip pointed forward - increasing penetration capability. Which round would you prefer to shoot at someone in a house or wearing armor with ?
2. Now before someone brings up the 5.56 rounds key advantage, fragmentation on impact on soft tissue. Let me inform you, this no longer occurs beyond 100m. After a 100m the velocity is lost to force the round to strip its jacket on impact with soft tissue. So the round punches a tiny clean hole in soft tissue. This is why you hear stories of taliban etc getting up and fighting after getting hit. Its because the 5.56 has lost the velocity to fragment inside the flesh and has gone straight through them causing minor injury that stitches can fix (as long as organs weren't hit etc)

The above are the direct findings of testing completed in 4th Army in 2009/2010 on all calibers in use in TR military and also some extra calibers that are encountered in the calibers.

The only reason our military uses 5.56 in some applications where as others have pointed out here 7.62 is not a good choice, is because of logistics and logistics alone. That is all.

If it were logistically feasible to change to something that provided the same advantages as a light round like the 5.56 when it comes to ergonomics and ease of use/carraige. It would be adopted. We simply dont have any other option.

Agreed with everything

except the last part.

That last part. "We don't have any other option." Isn't true. We can develop our own cartridge by taking into account everything we have learned in the last few decades.

Mauser engineers who developed CETME were up to something great with their copper jacketed aluminium round. 7.62x51 NATO standard came and ruined everything.

As with everything related to NATO we need to start questioning this. We need to start taking our own needs into consideration and develop new rifles and calibers fit for OUR needs. We're a mountainous country, range and muzzle velocity are important for us. a bullpup is the way to go here.

Our "milli" AR10 is simply not cutting it.

 

[Yatağanlı]

Agreed with everything

except the last part.

That last part. "We don't have any other option." Isn't true. We can develop our own cartridge by taking into account everything we have learned in the last few decades.

Mauser engineers who developed CETME were up to something great with their copper jacketed aluminium round. 7.62x51 NATO standard came and ruined everything.

As with everything related to NATO we need to start questioning this. We need to start taking our own needs into consideration and develop new rifles and calibers fit for OUR needs. We're a mountainous country, range and muzzle velocity are important for us. a bullpup is the way to go here.

Our "milli" AR10 is simply not cutting it.

You should watch this video. It perfectly explains how the 7.62x51 NATO was shoved down everyone's throat by the Americans.