Mitsubishi ATD-X and KAI KF-X, Which is superior?

[BoQ77]

As buffer for their 5th gen, this August the first F35 would be assembled for Japanese order.
Japanese engine would have more reference source.

The 5th gen stealth fighters are coming very near to Japan.

 

[xunzi]

1. XF5 is the name. Mitsubishi F2 how about it ? Beside domestic, Japan could anytime send order directly to engine maker ( GE, Pratt Whitney ) for quoting.
Buying engine still a trouble of China. Failed developing their own engine means disaster for their ambition.

Study on J11A, J11B and Su27 ; F2 and F16 ...
We see that all based on the imported version and self produced in domestic/
But Russia terminated the cooperation with China, while USA continue to cooperate with Japan.
Why? Japan respect the cooperation and copyrights.

This lead to more further cooperation next project.

Actually, we found no breaking designs for J11, J15, J16 compare to their imported version.
The engines still under testing ... J11B seem to be in mass production, while J15, J16 not ...

Japan continue to get F35 as ordered, while hear no news between Russia and China ( only ageing Su35 deal in rumor )
So it's reasonable to say Japan would have their 5th gen steadily in near future. They could learn from imported F35 too.
No good news to China. Because the 4th gen engines are still problem to them.
How a 5th gen winged with 3rd gen / 4th gen engines ? Ok we all wish for 5th gen engine of China come soon.

F35B is more power to Japan, because vertical landing ability, onto their Izumo-class or soon to purchase US LHD-1 USS Wasp.
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What we see here, Chinese has nothing to do but keep saying bad about F35, ATD-X ...
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Vietnam would get Su35 / Pak-FA for sure, but any alternatives still at our choice.

You are such a little noob when talking about these technology stuff. LOL

1. XF5 is a low-bypass engine with only 11,000 lb power thrust (afterburner). Obviously design for small to medium size aircraft. This is why most people speculate this is an interceptor aircraft as opposed to heavy fighter. Not a big game player like F-22 and J-20 with thrust in the upper 35,000+lb afterburner.

F2 engine is license built as mentioned by Genesis. We have complete indigenous engine for 4th gen aircraft (we called it 3rd generation) in WS-10 and variation of WS-13 that we can produce as many as we want if our PLAAF called for it. WS-15 will power J-20 and the new prototype coming out late this year or early next year on J-20 is rumor to be power by WS-15 for testing.

Check J-10, J-11, J-15. You tell me it is not beautiful in design? LOL

Russia wanted to cooperate developing 5th gen aircraft but we said no as we can do it ourselves. Instead we proposed to cooperate developing commercial airplane together which we both agree. Please learn. LOL

If we do not field J-20 with WS-15 by 2020, then you call say we fail; otherwise you really need to keep your mouth shut. LOL In fact, my prediction is we will field J-20 with WS-15 by 2018, ahead of our American analyst prediction. Remember we love to surprise our friends. LOL

You see, developing a state of the art program requires 3 main important area: funding, skilled labor, and national will. I would say the minimum requirements for any country to have any chance of successful 5th gen aircraft production are below

1. at least 2 trillion dollar GDP
2. at least 100 million population
3. technical expertise in the upper echelon in the field.

As you can see in the criteria, that country is Russia. And even Russia, who divert all of their industrial prowess into defense matter (like 70%) with very advance and mature experience in military tech, is still struggling to have a 5th gen and need cooperation from India to maintain a successful 5th gen program. Not easy by words, my friend. Action is what we need from Japan. LOL

 

[Phukimak]

You are such a little noob when talking about these technology stuff. LOL

1. XF5 is a low-bypass engine with only 11,000 lb power thrust (afterburner). Obviously design for small to medium size aircraft. This is why most people speculate this is an interceptor aircraft as opposed to heavy fighter. Not a big game player like F-22 and J-20 with thrust in the upper 35,000+lb afterburner.

F2 engine is license built as mentioned by Genesis. We have complete indigenous engine for 4th gen aircraft (we called it 3rd generation) in WS-10 and variation of WS-13 that we can produce as many as we want if our PLAAF called for it. WS-15 will power J-20 and the new prototype coming out late this year or early next year on J-20 is rumor to be power by WS-15 for testing.

Check J-10, J-11, J-15. You tell me it is not beautiful in design? LOL

Russia wanted to cooperate developing 5th gen aircraft but we said no as we can do it ourselves. Instead we proposed to cooperate developing commercial airplane together which we both agree. Please learn. LOL

If we do not field J-20 with WS-15 by 2020, then you call say we fail; otherwise you really need to keep your mouth shut. LOL In fact, my prediction is we will field J-20 with WS-15 by 2018, ahead of our American analyst prediction. Remember we love to surprise our friends. LOL

You see, developing a state of the art program requires 3 main important area: funding, skilled labor, and national will. I would say the minimum requirements for any country to have any chance of successful 5th gen aircraft production are below

1. at least 2 trillion dollar GDP
2. at least 100 million population
3. technical expertise in the upper echelon in the field.

As you can see in the criteria, that country is Russia. And even Russia, who divert all of their industrial prowess into defense matter (like 70%) with very advance and mature experience in military tech, is still struggling to have a 5th gen and need cooperation from India to maintain a successful 5th gen program. Not easy by words, my friend. Action is what we need from Japan. LOL

But we have to admit japan have a great basic technology for aircraft and system radar..

Same as political will... China, japan, Korea...these 3 country have a great political will for developing a state of the art program...

America on other hands... They have their own league in military tech..

 

[xunzi]

But we have to admit japan have a great basic technology for aircraft and system radar..

Same as political will... China, japan, Korea...these 3 country have a great political will for developing a state of the art program...

America on other hands... They have their own league in military tech..

Japan is good with electronic hardware. Not very good with software. That's why they will need the US for help. Software is need to connect various function of the aircraft processor, sensor, network, weapon system, etc... For radar, we do know Japan is good at. For stealth coating, we don't know. In fact, they need to send their stealth model to France for cross section testing. That say a lot about their inexperience in building stealth and doesn't have the right testing equipment ready for such complex program.

The reason we have political will is because we are a single-party with no political infighting to delay and/or block any program. In addition, we have huge resource in manpower, raw material, and $$ to do what we want. We also use the US's threat as justification, motivation, and benchmark for our development. South Korea/Japan political come from matching dick size with us which will be their biggest mistake to come because they are too small to engage in arm race with us. Remember how many toys you can build in the fastest time is more important than good looking toys. After all, ugly toy can kill just as good as a handsome toy. Japan/SK weakness would be they focus too much on the "look", as opposed to the function. This is also explain by their shortsighted in building small 5th gen aircraft, judge from their design so far. Although SK is more realistic with their expectation. Even that, SK would need your country's aid, Indonesia, for any chance of successful attempt at indigenous state-of-the-art program. Very difficult to accomplish.

We will match the US in about 2 decades. In fact, the 5 top areas of future military tech race would be:

1. stealth aircraft
2. arm drone
3. supersonic missile
4. space or anti-satellite weapon
5. nuclear 2nd strike capability weapon

We already have program and developing in all these area. In some, we are even ahead.

 

[BoQ77]

1. XF5 is a low-bypass engine with only 11,000 lb power thrust (afterburner). Obviously design for small to medium size aircraft. This is why most people speculate this is an interceptor aircraft as opposed to heavy fighter. Not a big game player like F-22 and J-20 with thrust in the upper 35,000+lb afterburner.

F2 engine is license built as mentioned by Genesis. We have complete indigenous engine for 4th gen aircraft (we called it 3rd generation) in WS-10 and variation of WS-13 that we can produce as many as we want if our PLAAF called for it. WS-15 will power J-20 and the new prototype coming out late this year or early next year on J-20 is rumor to be power by WS-15 for testing.

Check J-10, J-11, J-15. You tell me it is not beautiful in design? LOL

You see, developing a state of the art program requires 3 main important area: funding, skilled labor, and national will. I would say the minimum requirements for any country to have any chance of successful 5th gen aircraft production are below

1. at least 2 trillion dollar GDP
2. at least 100 million population
3. technical expertise in the upper echelon in the field.

As you can see in the criteria, that country is Russia. And even Russia, who divert all of their industrial prowess into defense matter (like 70%) with very advance and mature experience in military tech, is still struggling to have a 5th gen and need cooperation from India to maintain a successful 5th gen program. Not easy by words, my friend. Action is what we need from Japan. LOL

1. No matter how J11, J15 design beautiful, they are not Chinese designs.
2. Your criterion looks so fun ... is it any relation between 5th gen aircraft and "at least 100 million population ?" I think with 1.4 billion you should jump to 10th gen.
As posted, no one is credible maker of 5th gen aircrafts, except USA ... and Japan would get real sample of US products this year or next.

You said bad thing about Russia, doubt about their ability to produce 5th gen aircraft. But remember, upto 4th gen aircraft. you still buy from them, and you still not produced your first 5th gen aircraft ... do you argue that your main aircraft J11B not related to their Su27 ( J11A )? And we see you still order for Saturn AL-31FN engines for your 4th aircrafts.
3. I don't guess but ATD-X would never been mass produced, those are just prototypes for future aircrafts with same or more size. Japan has no plan to export those, so the details needless to be publicized. XF-5 is testing purpose only.
4. You said J20 with 35,000 lbs thrust afterburn ... how you get that is the main issue ... what is the current powerplant of it ?
You would never know XF5-xx performance. But Japanese aircrafts would be on LHD or A/C. Yours not ...

 

[aliaselin]

If Korea chooses ADD protocol, say C103 or C203, then it will be ahead of F-3. It may be hard for them at first for ADD protocol, however, as a better platform, it is much easier to be developed into a F-35 like fighter. As for ATD-X, it is so small that have few things to do with F-3, or say, it is much harder for ATD-X to be developed into F-3 than ADD protocol to become mature.

 

[Genesis]

1. No matter how J11, J15 design beautiful, they are not Chinese designs.
2. Your criterion looks so fun ... is it any relation between 5th gen aircraft and "at least 100 million population ?" I think with 1.4 billion you should jump to 10th gen.
As posted, no one is credible maker of 5th gen aircrafts, except USA ... and Japan would get real sample of US products this year or next.

You said bad thing about Russia, doubt about their ability to produce 5th gen aircraft. But remember, upto 4th gen aircraft. you still buy from them, and you still not produced your first 5th gen aircraft ... do you argue that your main aircraft J11B not related to their Su27 ( J11A )? And we see you still order for Saturn AL-31FN engines for your 4th aircrafts.
3. I don't guess but ATD-X would never been mass produced, those are just prototypes for future aircrafts with same or more size. Japan has no plan to export those, so the details needless to be publicized. XF-5 is testing purpose only.
4. You said J20 with 35,000 lbs thrust afterburn ... how you get that is the main issue ... what is the current powerplant of it ?
You would never know XF5-xx performance. But Japanese aircrafts would be on LHD or A/C. Yours not ...

1. they may not be entirely Chinese, but let me give you an example, in programming you need massive amount of documentation to document even the thinking process of the designer to recreate it. Even then you need to be highly skilled. For China to have "copied" or "reverse engineered" these guys needs to be top of their field and understand every concept and must be able to and must design own components. We have also made massive improvements to them.

Why is J-15 better? It's a lot lighter than Su-33, because it uses more composite material, different systems, and even different weapons, hence the J-15 has proven to be able to take off with far more armament and fuel than the Su-33 ever could.It's also decades later since Su-33, not a fair comparison.


2. population means GDP, a weapons program of this size needs an advanced economy meaning higher wages, even for China these engineers are more or less on Western wages, still lower, but not as low as you think. Much of Chinese government salary isn't the actual salary, it's bonuses and other expenses paid.


J-11 is Su27, it's the licensed version, J-11a is a little different, B is pretty different. But we are moving away, from it, Chinese engine industry is barely 10 years old in terms of funding and experience in the advanced field. So give it time.

Why is ours not on A/C? I mean we do have LHDs in the works, but we got no vert take off, so it's just helicopters. It is premature to judge performance of an engine not yet in prototype, yes.

Even western analyst say Japan can expect a working fifth gen by 2027 in mass production at earliest.

 

[BoQ77]

Genesis, Chinese design or not, the appearance of J15, J20 are awesome ...
ok for appearance, .. the content is not less important.

 

[Qweset]

I want to clarify a point. ATD-X is not supposed to be a fifth generation fighter but a technology demonstrator. feasibility of the project will be evaluated by 2016-17 if they decide to go on with the project the development of F-3 will start in 2017. F-3's will enter service in early 2030s but not in big numbers (F-35 will still be the main fighter). If F-3 proves to be a success Japan will go on to develop a sixth generation fighter in high quantity to replace the foreign made fighters with domestic ones in 2050s.
But I guess the problem is by 2050 Japan will be a bankrupt, old and poor third world country incapable of maintaining or undertaking any big projects.

 

[Indos]

If Korea chooses ADD protocol, say C103 or C203, then it will be ahead of F-3. It may be hard for them at first for ADD protocol, however, as a better platform, it is much easier to be developed into a F-35 like fighter. As for ATD-X, it is so small that have few things to do with F-3, or say, it is much harder for ATD-X to be developed into F-3 than ADD protocol to become mature.

Yes, C 103 design has been decided now...

 

[Echo_419]

How can we compare when we don't have any specs?

Kya baat hai appko Oscar Milan chaiye is comment ke liye
Both programme are at very early stage to compare

 

[cnleio]

U always like to off-topic,the reason always ban in PDF.
U always like to prend to a expert but no any truth here.

Except Russia, China built the most numbers aircrafts/fighters in Asia.China is 1st stealth fighter maker in Asia only world N.o2 nation building two 5-gen fighters.When u beg for Russia Su fighters, dont forget their engines also install on Chinese fighters...even Chinese has more choice.

U know nothing about China fighter development, just like how far J-20/J-31 ahead of other Asia nation‘s paper fighter... building 5-gen stealth fighter project is harder than building nuclear bomb, keep my words ! When US/Russia/China 6-gen stealth fighter near 2030, u will still struggle for 5-gen here ! ...lol.

 

[war is peace]

Is it Not a USA general who said china won't have 5th Gen jet by 2020 but it flew in 2011. The general looks stupid and hujintao laughs I'm sure he won't open his mouth and say crapola without facts.

 

[BoQ77]

For your information, China is still unsuccessful with 5th gen stealth.
What's fly in 2011 ?

 

[sicsheep]

For your information, China is still unsuccessful with 5th gen stealth.
What's fly in 2011 ?

please update the status on vietnamese 5th Gen, it is very stealthy we cant find it.