Mitsubishi ATD-X and KAI KF-X, Which is superior?

[Qweset]

I guess KF-X would play a much more important role than ATD-X. ATD-X seems to be just concept which will never be made. It has so many gimmicky features which seem to be from movies. The leaked picture of ATD-X which doesn't have radar cone didn't show an AESA radar. The weapon system seems to be ready no later than 2050 and the same goes with the engine. In 2050 most of the countries will have replaced their manned fighters with unmanned ones which will put ATD-X in disadvantage.
South Korea instead opted for a more realistic project; the engine will be foreign made it will put them almost 30 years in front of Japan) same goes with weapon system.
KF-X would also be an export aircraft which will pay for itself so they can produce a lot more planes than Japan. So SK can procure a lot more fighters in shorter time at lower cost with more effective engine and weapon system. ATD-X is not viable. in the next decades Japan's airforce will be in distinct disadvantage against SK, China and Russia if they continue with their ignorant ATD-X program.

ATD-X's first leaked picture.

 

[Nike]

KFX/IFX is still in paper, meanwhile ATDX just got their first prototype, it is no use to compare them.

Meanwhile KFX itself never mean to become fifth gen fighter, they only intended to become more advance/better than the current F-16 block 52+ currently operated by ROKAF.

 

[xunzi]

KFX/IFX is the more realistic option while ATDX has that robotic futuristic gundam feel to it. Know what I mean? LOL While KFX is at paper design phase, the ATDX is a little better at research phase. It is a technology demonstration prototype, aka wood model.

 

[BoQ77]

Xunzi never underestimate the enemy ... am I right ?

Could you tell me, what's the current engine for J20 ? how about its performance ?

 

[type93]

Atd x >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kfx

 

[Kompromat]

How can we compare when we don't have any specs?

 

[Genesis]

How can we compare when we don't have any specs?

dude, you been on the international military scene for how long now? When has no facts ever stopped anybody from anything. Just talking fifth gen, we have seen Western analyst sure J-31 would be this and that, even though, PLA brass don't know what it may finally become.

KFX/IFX is still in paper, meanwhile ATDX just got their first prototype, it is no use to compare them.

Meanwhile KFX itself never mean to become fifth gen fighter, they only intended to become more advance/better than the current F-16 block 52+ currently operated by ROKAF.

It's not intended to be nothing but a tech demo, it's too small to be an effective fighter. Maybe eventually they'll have one, but for now, it's a tech demo.

Xunzi never underestimate the enemy ... am I right ?

Could you tell me, what's the current engine for J20 ? how about its performance ?

I can't even tell you the engine for J-7 cause China never release those facts. For all intend and purposes, we are still fighting using wooden planes, I mean if we just go by official info.

But a engine for a fifth gen is one of the main goals of the country, I mean direct orders from the military committee, next year should see the maturity of the fourth gen engines, and the prototype for a fifth gen engine.

But current experimental engines have already been spotted on J-20, so.....

Even our 2010 sniper rifle is still called new sniper rifle rather than type 10. That's just a sniper rifle.

As to never underestimate an enemy, also no reason to overestimate and be too conservative. Japan has been pacifist for so long, you can't just go from nothing to something.

 

[Aepsilons]

The mere fact that Japan has maintained a pacifist position doesn't mean there hasn't been development into the air defense and other sectors in the military. Japan , through Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, have produced the Mitsubishi F2 fighter, our version of the F-16. There plethora of defense research , ranging from submarine , submarine warfare, tank, anti-ballistic missile technology , main battle tanks, etc.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries is in charge of Mitsubishi ATD-X ShinShin.

 

[BoQ77]

dude, you been on the international military scene for how long now? When has no facts ever stopped anybody from anything. Just talking fifth gen, we have seen Western analyst sure J-31 would be this and that, even though, PLA brass don't know what it may finally become.


It's not intended to be nothing but a tech demo, it's too small to be an effective fighter. Maybe eventually they'll have one, but for now, it's a tech demo.



I can't even tell you the engine for J-7 cause China never release those facts. For all intend and purposes, we are still fighting using wooden planes, I mean if we just go by official info.

But a engine for a fifth gen is one of the main goals of the country, I mean direct orders from the military committee, next year should see the maturity of the fourth gen engines, and the prototype for a fifth gen engine.

But current experimental engines have already been spotted on J-20, so.....

Even our 2010 sniper rifle is still called new sniper rifle rather than type 10. That's just a sniper rifle.

As to never underestimate an enemy, also no reason to overestimate and be too conservative. Japan has been pacifist for so long, you can't just go from nothing to something.

Nice argument, indeed. We are not surprise to see several Chinese members said bad about Japanese stealth and its engines. But that's Made in Japan, and you don't really know well about that. See their AIP subs production, it's real.
Why blame them on the weakness of future aircraft? We know well that Japanese will use imported engines for prototype, mass production use domestic engine ... they are naive to use less effective engines on their advanced technology aircraft

Prove your strongness by performance, the steadily development, cause J20 has much sooner schedule, but to public, J20 suffering the same issue on engine. That's big issue, because J20 production is launched soon, and that's a very big aircraft not same size as Japanese ATD.

Less figure, more rumor ... bring a nonsense comparison ...

The lightweight of ATD-X, as I guess for operation on A/C or Izumo class, for example ...
High performance , 3D thrust of ATD-X engines if applied give it the vertical landing on board.

 

[Aepsilons]

Mitsubishi F3-E Fighter [planned]

Mitsubishi F3 Fighter

 

[Genesis]

Nice argument, indeed. We are not surprise to see several Chinese members said bad about Japanese stealth and its engines. But that's Made in Japan, and you don't really know well about that. See their AIP subs production, it's real.
Why blame them on the weakness of future aircraft? We know well that Japanese will use imported engines for prototype, mass production use domestic engine ... they are naive to use less effective engines on their advanced technology aircraft

Prove your strongness by performance, the steadily development, cause J20 has much sooner schedule, but to public, J20 suffering the same issue on engine. That's big issue, because J20 production is launched soon, and that's a very big aircraft not same size as Japanese ATD.

Less figure, more rumor ... bring a nonsense comparison ...

Fifth gen needs to be big, because all weapons are internal. A small fifth gen isn't effective, it's stealth not magic, you can't shoot down enemy planes with stealth.

China also has AIP subs, for sometime now, but you know Communists, we never disclose anything. I also don't see how one has to do with the other. Japan is better at Helicopter tech, or at least have better access to America, as evident by their massive fleet of LHDs. But this doesn't reflect on a fighter project.

Japan don't have their own fifth gen engine, at least not yet.

There's only three credible fifth gen makers, Russia, China, and US.

Check KF-X, it's starting to resemble J-20. That should say plenty about J-20 as a fighter.


@Nihonjin1051

I'm sure Japan eventually can build a very good one, but within the next decade to decade and a half, the likely hood is not huge.

 

[Aepsilons]

I'm sure Japan eventually can build a very good one, but within the next decade to decade and a half, the likely hood is not huge.

With the broadening of Japanese military role, and opening of our military defense industry, potential is quite bright.

 

[BoQ77]

Japan don't have their own fifth gen engine, at least not yet.

There's only three credible fifth gen makers, Russia, China, and US.

for more strength on your argument, how you measure for "credible fifth gen makers" ?
1. Did they have one full-functioned 5th gen ?
2. How durable their 5th gen operate ?

To me, there's only one maker at this moment, it's USA

If you say Japan doesn't have their own 5th gen engine, did China have one? I heard you said China waiting for 4th gen engine next. While Japan made F2 engine by themselves long time ago
Is it the same situation of 5th gen?

There're some rumors about China pending their manufacturing of J20 until getting Su35 engine .... just ignore about that until we see any clear evidence

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We wonder who would be the 1st to provide us the 5th gen , Russia, Japan or USA ... before we have only one Russia source. But now everything changed.
Japan could export, USA nearly lift the ban of selling lethal weapon to Vietnam.
Even Korea is a good partner, cause they provided us the CSB8003 using near HYSY 981 now

 

[Genesis]

for more strength on your argument, how you measure for "credible fifth gen makers" ?
1. Did they have one full-functioned 5th gen ?
2. How durable their 5th gen operate ?

To me, there's only one maker at this moment, it's USA

If you say Japan doesn't have their own 5th gen engine, did China have one? I heard you said China waiting for 4th gen engine next. While Japan made F2 engine by themselves long time ago
Is it the same situation of 5th gen?

There're some rumors about China pending their manufacturing of J20 until getting Su35 engine .... just ignore about that until we see any clear evidence

------------
We wonder who would be the 1st to provide us the 5th gen , Russia, Japan or USA ... before we have only one Russia source. But now everything changed.
Japan could export, USA nearly lift the ban of selling lethal weapon to Vietnam.
Even Korea is a good partner, cause they provided us the CSB8003 using near HYSY 981 now

First, Japan and Korea don't have their own engine, not unless GE turned Asian. They are built under license which is completely different than self design, which China does. Even if you claim we stole, which is groundless, there still need to be teams of dudes that understand how to design a engine to actually make one without actual man assistance from the engineers that designed the original.

All techs have documentations that can fill a library, just seeing it and using it is about as useful as you driving a car and should know how to build one.

Right now, yes, USA is the only one to field a fifth gen, so if you want to go that route, sure, but we should also look at Chinese aviation history, J-10B, and J-11B as well as J-15 and J-16, China has experience in fighter design and manufacturing.

Yes, we may have taken some other designs, but we still needed to build from the ground up, and we still understood all the concepts, and the latest iterations of these are more and more Chinese with no foreign input.

Engine is a big problem, 2020 is when I project for first fifth gen engine to enter active service in numbers. But then I'm not an expert.

IF you want Japanese fighters wait 20 years, Russians, maybe, but it's not going well, according to Indian sources, USA, you can maybe maintain like 5 with your budget, 10 if your military can figure out how soldiers can eat grass and survive.

 

[BoQ77]

1. XF5 is the name. Mitsubishi F2 how about it ? Beside domestic, Japan could anytime send order directly to engine maker ( GE, Pratt Whitney ) for quoting.
Buying engine still a trouble of China. Failed developing their own engine means disaster for their ambition.

Study on J11A, J11B and Su27 ; F2 and F16 ...
We see that all based on the imported version and self produced in domestic/
But Russia terminated the cooperation with China, while USA continue to cooperate with Japan.
Why? Japan respect the cooperation and copyrights.

This lead to more further cooperation next project.

Actually, we found no breaking designs for J11, J15, J16 compare to their imported version.
The engines still under testing ... J11B seem to be in mass production, while J15, J16 not ...

Japan continue to get F35 as ordered, while hear no news between Russia and China ( only ageing Su35 deal in rumor )
So it's reasonable to say Japan would have their 5th gen steadily in near future. They could learn from imported F35 too.
No good news to China. Because the 4th gen engines are still problem to them.
How a 5th gen winged with 3rd gen / 4th gen engines ? Ok we all wish for 5th gen engine of China come soon.

F35B is more power to Japan, because vertical landing ability, onto their Izumo-class or soon to purchase US LHD-1 USS Wasp.
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What we see here, Chinese has nothing to do but keep saying bad about F35, ATD-X ...
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Vietnam would get Su35 / Pak-FA for sure, but any alternatives still at our choice.