Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India

[SrNair]

1. Stop going hyper. First read my earlier post. Second understand the sarcasm in it.

2. Do you know the meaning of the word 'bilateral' ? it means between two countries. No space for 3rd country.

3. So far France has been Very Expensive, but Reliable. That has changed now. This is the fist time France has gone back on their word. France is still playing if safe by saying the delivery is "delayed" not cancelled. Which is why everybody is watching closely.

4. If no one is reliable then it is foolish to pour down 20 Billion $ or more to do business with them. The ONLY alternative is to build it on your own, which is what we did with Missiles.

5. Tomorrow if we join SCO there is no guarantee that France will continue to have good relationship with us. That is just ONE example. There could be a million other perpetuation combination of geo strategic issues that can create problems and cause France to become unreliable again.

Then if that is the case then we cant use the Scorpene subs in our Navy because they are also French tech.
Foreigners suppliers are always unreliable, even it is Russia.
If we scrap this then our only choice is our own fighter.And that is still need to be matured .
France is best because they stayed with our side when we test the nukes.

 

[Sahasranama]

Then if that is the case then we cant use the Scorpene subs in our Navy because they are also French tech.
Foreigners suppliers are always unreliable, even it is Russia.
If we scrap this then our only choice is our own fighter.And that is still need to be matured .
France is best because they stayed with our side when we test the nukes.

Since we have already paid for the sub, do we have a choice in the matter ?

Russia also stayed on our side when we tested the nukes.So did china ....what does that make them ?

End of the day the only ones you can Really Trust is oneself. which is why its better if that 20 Billion is poured into R&D. No small change but that is the cost of building a modern A/C.

Or we can give that money to France and fund development of their new A/C.

 

[$@rJen]

1. Stop going hyper. First read my earlier post. Second understand the sarcasm in it.

2. Do you know the meaning of the word 'bilateral' ? it means between two countries. No space for 3rd country.

3. So far France has been Very Expensive, but Reliable. That has changed now. This is the fist time France has gone back on their word. France is still playing if safe by saying the delivery is "delayed" not cancelled. Which is why everybody is watching closely.

4. If no one is reliable then it is foolish to pour down 20 Billion $ or more to do business with them. The ONLY alternative is to build it on your own, which is what we did with Missiles.

5. Tomorrow if we join SCO there is no guarantee that France will continue to have good relationship with us. That is just ONE example. There could be a million other perpetuation combination of geo strategic issues that can create problems and cause France to become unreliable again.

GHAh ah ha.... I don't know the word bilateral !!!! Dude, how did you even come to the conclusion its between two countries when Ukraine is being begging the west for help and doesn't want to do anything with Russia... Ukraine is seeking EU membership how the hell its Bilateral???

I told you there's no one reliable so stop using that word or relying on that... Even if they actually stopped selling the Ship to Russia and that's not going to stop us from buying Rafale.

France is not foolish to give up 30+ billion and relationship with India for the sake of US.. if they're banning the sale to Russia then its justified as Russia is their Enemy state.

And we don't have anything bad with EU or West so stop making a mess out of it.

India joining SCO is not going to affect France in anyway ...... You're making way too much assumption

 

[fallstuff]

LOL....is that how we operate in real life ? ...... you will remain faithful to you wife only when she is young and good looking ? ...else you can break your promise with her ?

What about bank loans ? you will repay loans from certain banks and not from others ?

Ukraine did not have any defence pact with France. Russia action on Ukraine was a bilateral one. France had no business getting involved.

You are either a RELIABLE supplier or you ARE NOT. There is NO middle ground here. No Grey area.

Either you are a man of your word in ALL circumstances, or you are not. A man who changes his word when circumstances change is not a man of his word, he is an opportunist.

A Friend who changes his friendship when you are having a hard time is called a "fair weathered friend", not a reliable friend.

If you understand Game Theory try to view it using the game theory variables. Then the decision becomes as clear as daylight.

You may be willing to take a "chance" with the French, but Logic and Rational though dictates that if a nation does not honour their word when the circumstances change, it will never honour their word when the circumstances changes again.

In international politics circumstances changes ALL the time.

Great post.

Lavrov is already labeling France as an unreliable partner, this is a hint to India. He is claiming the French will deliver.

I am sure the Russians are working behind the scene with India.

 

[Sahasranama]

GHAh ah ha.... I don't know the word bilateral !!!! Dude, how did you even come to the conclusion its between two countries when Ukraine is being begging the west for help and doesn't want to do anything with Russia... Ukraine is seeking EU membership how the hell its Bilateral???

I told you there's no one reliable so stop using that word or relying on that... Even if they actually stopped selling the Ship to Russia and that's not going to stop us from buying Rafale.

France is not foolish to give up 30+ billion and relationship with India for the sake of US.. if they're banning the sale to Russia then its justified as Russia is their Enemy state.

And we don't have anything bad with EU or West so stop making a mess out of it.

India joining SCO is not going to affect France in anyway ...... You're making way too much assumption

Is Ukraine part of the EU ? ........ No ? then its bilateral.

If "No one is reliable" then logic dictates we should ask for 100% ToT and not 50%.

If "No one is Reliable" then the other option is to go for the CHEAPEST a/c which can do the role and forget about ToT.

The whole point of choosing France was for Reliability. If that does not exist then France is just another US and needs to be treated like how we treat US.

If 30 billion $ is the sale price of French loyalty, then what is the guarantee that tomorrow if there is a war France will not sell radar codes to our enemies ? or screw India in the middle of the deal if they sign a bigger deal with the US or China ?

Great post.

Lavrov is already labeling France as an unreliable partner, this is a hint to India. He is claiming the French will deliver.

I am sure the Russians are working behind the scene with India.

India is unlikely to arm twist France on behalf of Russia. The deal is important to India too.

But French decision will have far reaching repercussions.

 

[$@rJen]

Since we have already paid for the sub, do we have a choice in the matter ?

Russia also stayed on our side when we tested the nukes.So did china ....what does that make them ?

End of the day the only ones you can Really Trust is oneself. which is why its better if that 20 Billion is poured into R&D. No small change but that is the cost of building a modern A/C.

Or we can give that money to France and fund development of their new A/C.

we've not paid the full cash yet... we don't have the habit of paying all the cash at one go...

You want to pour 20B in R&D??? then how are we going to get jets when IAF is Shrinking??? Paying for R&D is not a problem but who is going to solve the current problem... R&D will take a decade to produce a jet, we can't put the country's security for the sake of R&D.... we buy this jet with no other option at the same time put some money in R&D for the future

 

[Sahasranama]

we've not paid the full cash yet... we don't have the habit of paying all the cash at one go...

You want to pour 20B in R&D??? then how are we going to get jets when IAF is Shrinking??? Paying for R&D is not a problem but who is going to solve the current problem... R&D will take a decade to produce a jet, we can't put the country's security for the sake of R&D.... we buy this jet with no other option at the same time put some money in R&D for the future

You will not go to a shop to buy gold when you know he is not reliable. You will not put money in a bank when you know it is not reliable. It does not matter how much we put in, if we put in ALL the money or deposit it in instalments.

There is LCA, Mk I & II, AMCA, FGFA and Su 30 MKI and Embraer EMB 145 AEW&CS. Ask IAF to make a plan B.

There are no easy fix or quick fix. You want reliability and fleet strength ? you need to build it up the HARD way. The IAF has been taking the easy way out for far too long. That is one of the reasons for the mess we are in.

 

[DingDong]

India must insulate her international relations from her relation with Russia which is going down-hill. France has proven itself as a reliable strategic partner of India. We must not see through somebody else's eyes because we might draw wrong conclusions.

 

[Sahasranama]

India must insulate her international relations from her relation with Russia which is going down-hill. France has proven itself as a reliable strategic partner of India. We must not see through somebody else's eyes because we might draw wrong conclusions.

This has nothing to do with Indo-Russia relationship.

It has everything to do with French Reliability. Both are independent of each other.

 

[$@rJen]

Is Ukraine part of the EU ? ........ No ? then its bilateral.
If "No one is reliable" then logic dictates we should ask for 100% ToT and not 50%.
If "No one is Reliable" then the other option is to go for the CHEAPEST a/c which can do the role and forget about ToT.
The whole point of choosing France was for Reliability. If that does not exist then France is just another US and needs to be treated like how we treat US.
If 30 billion $ is the sale price of French loyalty, then what is the guarantee that tomorrow if there is a war France will not sell radar codes to our enemies ? or screw India in the middle of the deal if they sign a bigger deal with the US or China ?

not yet... But if Ukraine doesn't want to negotiate with Russia and would want EU and west to mantle then its not Bilateral anymore..

MMRCA competition is including 100% ToT... not 50%..... but there's not a single country including Russia would give me 100%
france may give me 80%....as per the recent report by MoD France is complying with every rule put on MMRCA competition.
But if we had chosen US then they'd give us only 40%... they didn't even want to share the tech od Javelin think about Jet Tech???

are you meaning to say Grippen?? if US can put a pressure on France to stop selling the ship to Russia then how hard it would be for US to pressure Sweden.

One think you're not getting is RUSSIANS ARE THEIR ENEMY WHILE INDIA IS ONE OF THEIR MOST NEEDED COUNTRY this is not going to affect us in any way....

30+B is not for the Loyalty,, its for the Weapons... you want a high end goodies then pay for them... don't take 20k and walk into Apple show room for Iphone 5s..

Didn't we sign a big deals with Russians and US before, did France screw us in any way???

 

[fallstuff]

Is Ukraine part of the EU ?


India is unlikely to arm twist France on behalf of Russia. The deal is important to India too.

But French decision will have far reaching repercussions.

As you mentioned in an earlier post the issue is a reliable partner or supplier.

Nations go to war as a means of last resort when all else have failed. So once you engage in hostilities it is mission critical that your weapon supplier will not change his mind. You would want to be sure of that before you are in war or war like situation.

You do not want to be in a situation where Argentina was back in 1982 Falkland War when France delayed the supplies of the Exocet missiles acting upon a request by U.K. effectively sealing the fate of Argentina.

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott - Telegraph

 

[$@rJen]

You will not go to a shop to buy gold when you know he is not reliable. You will not put money in a bank when you know it is not reliable. It does not matter how much we put in, if we put in ALL the money or deposit it in instalments.

There is LCA, Mk I & II, AMCA, FGFA and Su 30 MKI and Embraer EMB 145 AEW&CS. Ask IAF to make a plan B.

There are no easy fix or quick fix. You want reliability and fleet strength ? you need to build it up the HARD way. The IAF has been taking the easy way out for far too long. That is one of the reasons for the mess we are in.

LCA is coming up MK2 will be usefull as a low end craft... AMCA still in Papers even if we put so much money in that its not going to be fruitful in time not to mention the Ability of our scientist, they're not even able to handle the tech that's given to them then talk about inventing new tech.. FGFA is Russian our work load will be only 30% or Less....Su MKI is not going to solve the problem alone.... We need a Medium fighter.. Give me one plane name which will come with out risk ???? There's simply no plan B??? its too late for that.

You're right we need to build on our own but with what....??? Why do you think we're issuing tender with ToT??? and why do you think we're payiing whole B!tch of Money... its mainly for the tech Which will be Used to Shape AMCA ?? DRDO simply not able to build anything without a help We need this plane to save IAF's free fall of planes after 2017 and the tech for the Future planes

 

[Sahasranama]

not yet... But if Ukraine doesn't want to negotiate with Russia and would want EU and west to mantle then its not Bilateral anymore..

MMRCA competition is including 100% ToT... not 50%..... but there's not a single country including Russia would give me 100%
france may give me 80%....as per the recent report by MoD France is complying with every rule put on MMRCA competition.
But if we had chosen US then they'd give us only 40%... they didn't even want to share the tech od Javelin think about Jet Tech???

are you meaning to say Grippen?? if US can put a pressure on France to stop selling the ship to Russia then how hard it would be for US to pressure Sweden.

One think you're not getting is RUSSIANS ARE THEIR ENEMY WHILE INDIA IS ONE OF THEIR MOST NEEDED COUNTRY this is not going to affect us in any way....

30+B is not for the Loyalty,, its for the Weapons... you want a high end goodies then pay for them... don't take 20k and walk into Apple show room for Iphone 5s..

Didn't we sign a big deals with Russians and US before, did France screw us in any way???

There is no 100% ToT only 50% Offset. I am sure MoD France is complying TODAY. What about TOMORROW ?

Since its already proven that pressure can stop the sale, the choice is between 100% ToT OR no ToT but Cheap A/C. What is the confusion ?

There are no ENEMIES in International relations. Only SELF INTERESTS. That is something you do not seem to understand.

France was in NO position to screw us earlier. They would be in the future. Do you want to hand over your future to someone you know is unreliable ?

As you mentioned in an earlier post the issue is a reliable partner or supplier.

Nations go to war as a means of last resort when all else have failed. So once you engage in hostilities it is mission critical that your weapon supplier will not change his mind. You would want to be sure of that before you are in war or war like situation.

You do not want to be in a situation where Argentina was back in 1982 Falkland War when France delayed the supplies of the Exocet missiles acting upon a request by U.K. effectively sealing the fate of Argentina.

How France helped us win Falklands war, by John Nott - Telegraph

I am aware of this.

 

[$@rJen]

There is no 100% ToT only 50% Offset. I am sure MoD France is complying TODAY. What about TOMORROW ?

Proof, link please??? 100% ToT Should be provided, only after agreeing the following condition only the companies were allowed to bid

 

[Sahasranama]

LCA is coming up MK2 will be usefull as a low end craft... AMCA still in Papers even if we put so much money in that its not going to be fruitful in time not to mention the Ability of our scientist, they're not even able to handle the tech that's given to them then talk about inventing new tech.. FGFA is Russian our work load will be only 30% or Less....Su MKI is not going to solve the problem alone.... We need a Medium fighter.. Give me one plane name which will come with out risk ???? There's simply no plan B??? its too late for that.

You're right we need to build on our own but with what....??? Why do you think we're issuing tender with ToT??? and why do you think we're payiing whole B!tch of Money... its mainly for the tech Which will be Used to Shape AMCA ?? DRDO simply not able to build anything without a help We need this plane to save IAF's free fall of planes after 2017 and the tech for the Future planes

I don't care what is low end or high end. The IAF needs to make a plan with what is AVAILABLE. Not be cry babies.

If there is no Plan B then IAF has failed in its duties. Its as simple as that.

Non of the MMRCA tech. would be or can be used to shape AMCA. It will be screwdriver tech in any case.

You pour money you build capabilities, same as any other nation in the world It has nothing to do with DRDO or TATA. Only two things are required to build any sort of capabilities, Money and Time.

Proof, link please??? 100% ToT Should be provided, only after agreeing the following condition only the companies were allowed to bid

Show proof of 100% ToT first