Mirage-III ROSE, retrofitted for EW/ELINT role?

[Kompromat]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Good note, from my stand point No Mirage should be discontinued

a) We have engineering facility that has capacity to do major "Overhaul" of major components of the plane and also the engine itself. I came to know the parts are ISO Certified quality. The quality of the parts being made is high quality.

b) In recent times some folks stated that the reconnaissance capabilities of the planes have become some what obsolete, it had a Tape based Recording system and that took some time to capture or process data.

A upgrade with Turkish help might enhance that capabilities by 1000-2000%
this upgrade should enhance the vision and recon abilities of the planes.

The data transfer mod is already in place so the data this POD would forward would get transferred at high rates as needed by Airforce

a) The plane already has auto anti missile defense
b) The plane has a good radar - people argued its same level as the ones in F16
c) The plane's data transfer capacity / data communication has been modernized
d) HUDs and fire controls integration into flying stick
e) BVR capacity
f) Anti Ship / Day and Night abilities
g) Mid Air refuel capabilities (Training vehicle) for new pilots

Most Mirage Units should be moved to GWADAR or Karachi for Navy

Next Goal for Mirage
a) Turkish Pods Upgrade
b) Opening the plane's avionics to Local Pakistani Companies for Digital Avionics
R&D
c) SD-10 add on (Optional)
d) High End Missiles

Considering how extensive knowledge and Engineering knowledge we have we can maximize the knowledge by upgrading its Technology on board

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Mirages are the old love of PAF, just like F16s. I think you will see Mirages in PAF for still some years to come. And who knows in couple of year we may see Ex-UAE or other used Mirage-2000 with retrofits entering PAF fleet?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Provided the technology inside the machine is upgraded or enhanced over time , the Engines and Frame for mirage is maintained by Top quality engineers and workshop in Pakistan.

The focus should be attaining next generation pieces that can enhance the performance for Mirages

a) Enhance the ground recon
b) Digital Targeting capabilities
c) A better Missiles for Air to Air


We have a solution JF17 Thunder platform, however I don't think retiring Mirage is ideal

However considering the Importance of Mirage, in Navy , Day and Night Missions and Deep strike missions , Mirages are a viable platform

The only real weakness is the "Recon and visual view of pilot on visuals of ground units and reporting back" and with the Turkish POD that weakness will be removed

May be after a new Recon Pod is added , the mirage can be more focused on Sea based missions

Recon pod will certainly add to the abilities of Mirage

All these technologies I think can be integrated with out compromising the operation of flying mirages

Turkish already have sufficient experience integrating the pods for their F-16

It would be strange to decommission an operational plane

 

[HRK]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

Only two concern from side

1- Do we really need 'number of squadrons' in dedicated EW/ELINT role ??
2- How long we can keep this bird fly .... it already 40+ year old .... ??

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

A plane can infinitely fly until it can compete with adversary

a) Engineering parts overhaul ensures a plane maintains flyable capacity
(We have this 100% , we make ISO certified parts international quality)
b) Technological upgrades (Targeting Pod, New Missiles , Radar) adds to longevity.
(We could find friendly nations who can assist)
c) A respectable Missile on board to give pilots a fighting chance
(The on board missiles we can improve this aspect)

• We can probably upgrade all our 200 fleet of Mirage for the cost to manufacture 18-20 JF17 thunders.

Electronic counter measure units(China /Open Market)
Missiles (China Air to Air long range)
Targeting PODs (Turkey)

Are all operations which are doable

The key for Pakistan is we have an "Engineering Base" for this plane provided we can upgrade its Technological limitations this plane can serve for another 10-15 years

 

[Manticore]

French Mirage 2000Ds to gain ELINT role

• CRAIG HOYLE LONDON
  11:40 24 Feb 2012
  Source:
  
  
  French air force Dassault Mirage 2000D strike aircraft are to gain the ability to perform electronic intelligence (ELINT) missions, under a new deal with Thales.
  
  Approved by France's DGA defence procurement agency, the ASTAC pod integration programme will see the 2000D fleet assume the tactical reconnaissance role currently held by the air force's aged Mirage F1s.
  
  According to Thales, the 400kg (882lb) ASTAC pod's ELINT capabilities include the ability to locate and classify hostile emitters to support targeting applications or to inform an air force's electronic order of battle. The equipment was used by the F1 fleet during last year's NATO-led campaign to protect Libyan civilians, referred to by France as Operation "Harmattan".
  
  "The contract includes all the modifications required to interface the ASTAC pods with the Mirage 2000D (below), including adaptation to the platform and adjustments to the countermeasures systems housed inside the pod," Thales said on 23 February.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  © French air force
  
  
  
  The work is due to conclude in 2014, with this to coincide with the planned retirement of the F1 fleet. More than 50 of the type are currently in active service with the French air force, according to Flightglobal's MiliCAS database.
  

The ASTAC (Analyseur de Signaux TACTiques) pod was designed to be carried under the fuselage of F4 Phantom, Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000 combat aircraft to provide an electronic intelligence (ELINT) and tactical reconnaissance capability, including updating the overall situation and generating the electronic order of battle.



The contract includes all the modifications required to interface the ASTAC pods with the Mirage 2000D, including adaptation to the platform and adjustments to the countermeasures systems housed inside the pod.

ASTAC is designed to operate in dense electromagnetic environments, offering high-precision direction of arrival estimation and uses sophisticated algorithms to determine the location of the signals intercepted. Key parameters of signal sources are measured with high precision in any electromagnetic environment, irrespective of the transmission techniques employed.

French Mirage 2000D to Assume F-1CR ELINT Capabilities by 2014 - Defense Update - Military Technology & Defense News
French Mirage 2000Ds to gain ELINT role

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

We need these POD upgrade (Recon & day/night + Electronic CM) from Turkey & another option for Long Range missile for Mirage.

Considering we were given Sniper PODs for F16C/D , we should be able to attain them from Turkey as part of our modernization effort and later hopefully these can be moved to JF17 thunder platform

I know Pakistani Air force always favored western systems which works out fine Turkish standards on their POD must match that of F16 or western standard we should not have too many issues in integration, with our radar or plane

 

[HariPrasad]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

Mirages are very good fighters. It is not a bad idea to upgrade and retain them.

 

[Kompromat]

@Manticore

Whats your own opinion? - Its certainly a cost effective way for us to have fast flying, quick response ELINT, EW capability...


@HRK Their flight hours can be extended, and no they won't be regularly flying in an ELINT, EW role. They would be flying on 'when needed' basis.

The point is to have a cost effective force multiplier, and to add modern capabilities at cheaper costs to build our fighting potential.

We already have EW ranges on the ground, if we can have a substantial fleet of fast air borne EW planes, it will provide an edge to PAF against sophisticated threats.

 

[Manticore]

I would rather convert them into armed drones like the chinese f7 unmanned drone conversion pics I posted a year earlier in the drones/uav thread

 

[Kompromat]

I would rather convert them into armed drones like the chinese f7 unmanned drone conversion pics I posted a year earlier in the drones/uav thread

I think F-7s would be better suited for that role. However i'd doubt the wisdom of that costly exercise.

Why Mirages? -Mainly because of its long range, IFR, Speed, Higher operating altitude celing, payload and our ability to keep them flying.

With above capabilities they can escort our fighter/attack packages by providing Jamming for them, while being able to keep up with their flight and the ability to scoot, due to its speed. Falcon 20s and Hawker-800s are simply incapable of doing so.

If we remove the guns and other equipment we don't need for this role, an EW package can be housed inside, complemented by podded EW suite on hard points/belly and more sensors installed on the tail.

With structural/engine upgrades plus an upgraded cockpit would cut it for us.

 

[HRK]

I think F-7s would be better suited for that role. However i'd doubt the wisdom of that costly exercise.

Why Mirages? -Mainly because of its long range, IFR, Speed, Higher operating altitude celing, payload and our ability to keep them flying.

With above capabilities they can escort our fighter/attack packages by providing Jamming for them, while being able to keep up with their flight and the ability to scoot, due to its speed. Falcon 20s and Hawker-800s are simply incapable of doing so.

If we remove the guns and other equipment we don't need for this role, an EW package can be housed inside, complemented by podded EW suite on hard points/belly and more sensors installed on the tail.

With structural/engine upgrades plus an upgraded cockpit would cut it for us.

@Aeronaut if I am not getting it wrong ..... basically you are floating an idea about another ROSE type upgradation but for a specialized role ..... ???

 

[razgriz19]

@Aeronaut if I am not getting it wrong ..... basically you are floating an idea about another ROSE type upgradation but for a specialized role ..... ???

the air frames are too old, but more importantly the engines are too old.
No point in upgrading them. PAF won't waste, what ever money they have left, on these ancient birds.

 

[HRK]

the air frames are too old, but more importantly the engines are too old.
No point in upgrading them. PAF won't waste, what ever money they have left, on these ancient birds.

that what i believe too .... but 'If' PAF can negotiate with these two highlighted issues .....it will not be a bad idea to work with ..... but again not every wish can come true .....