Mirage-III ROSE, retrofitted for EW/ELINT role?

[razgriz19]

A plane can infinitely fly until it can compete with adversary

a) Engineering parts overhaul ensures a plane maintains flyable capacity
(We have this 100% , we make ISO certified parts international quality)
b) Technological upgrades (Targeting Pod, New Missiles , Radar) adds to longevity.
(We could find friendly nations who can assist)
c) A respectable Missile on board to give pilots a fighting chance
(The on board missiles we can improve this aspect)

• We can probably upgrade all our 200 fleet of Mirage for the cost to manufacture 18-20 JF17 thunders.

Electronic counter measure units(China /Open Market)
Missiles (China Air to Air long range)
Targeting PODs (Turkey)

Are all operations which are doable

The key for Pakistan is we have an "Engineering Base" for this plane provided we can upgrade its Technological limitations this plane can serve for another 10-15 years

Yes, an engine that has been overhauled is essentially a brand new engine as its brought up to manufacture's specs.
However, to bring it up to "new" standard, technicians would most likely have to replace some parts that are not in confinement to manufacture's requirement.
And i'm pretty darn sure that PAC does not manufacture parts for the engine, such as compressor blades, etc
In fact, i don't think even SNECMA makes parts for those engines. Therefore, all those engines have a life limit, and as a result PAF cannot upgrade/overhaul these airplanes completely and keep them in service forever.

Another thing is, we don't have 200 mirages. That number is probably at around 120-130 max. A lot of them have been salvaged for parts, and a lot of them have crashed.

 

[Kompromat]

@Aeronaut if I am not getting it wrong ..... basically you are floating an idea about another ROSE type upgradation but for a specialized role ..... ???

Precisely!!!!

Minus the weapon systems...!

However, we must impliment the lessons/goodies of JF-17 into and ELINT/EW MIRAGE.

 

[Kompromat]

@razgriz19

* NOT all, Mirage air frames are 'ancient'. There are newer air frames with considerable amount of hours left.

* We don't need a large number of Mirages for this role. A handful will cut it for us.

* Yes i'm aware that there is the parts issue. However i'd ask you to watch the PAC presentation about the Mirage factory. We can easily build new parts for air frame upgrades, retrofitting and newer avionics package if needed.

* We still have a large quantity of these Mirages. If the parts like the engine parts ain't available, we can still keep these handful ELINT/EW jets flying for the forseeable future by 'cannibalizing' parts from the jets that have been phased out.

* Jf-17s for this role will be 'too expensive' for our pocket.

* Please note that i'm not arguing to raise a large quantity of such ACs but a handful of them, according to our needs.

 

[gambit]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

The EF-111 did exactly just that with the F-111's weapons bay -- filled it with EW doo-dads. We call that section 'the canoe' because the structure/container shaped similar to a canoe, and it was heavy...

General Dynamics/Grumman EF-111A Raven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ALQ-99E primary electronics were installed in the weapons bay, with transmitters fitted in a 16 feet (4.9 m) long ventral "canoe" radome; the complete installation weighed some 6,000 pounds (2,700 kg).

Not going to be an easy modification, though. For the EF-111, estimated we were about %65 close to designing a new aircraft. Power generators must be upgraded. New wiring and cooling runs must be new and re-designed for the area. Weight and balances recalculated. Even though the EW antennas will be directional, shielding must be installed at the immediate area to protect aircraft avionics from any possible powerful stray signals from the ECM transmissions.

 

[Luftwaffe]

The costs associated with such a Program suggested would be big enough.

isrealis Kfir Block 60 costs $20m They have been added with Intelligence and Surveillance capabilities apart from other major capabilities and AESA radar.

First of all can Pakistan dedicate more funds for another round of Upgrades to Mirage ROSE airframes to add more capabilities but then it is adding more capabilities there isn't going to be separate squadron for it and the aircraft would be under more stress to various operations/missions. Although isrealis are selling those Kfirs for 20m obviously they have a profit in it lets assume the total cost for a single mirage could be 8m can PAF invest some where around 150m on a squadron next if we put a squadrons for such a dedicated task than again PAF would be needing atleast equal numbers to perform previous allotted task that ROSE Mirages were destined for.

[URL='https://defence.pk/threads/the-iai-kfir-fighter-jet-received-a-new-lease-of-life.280720/#post-4850225']the IAI Kfir fighter jet received a new lease of life[/URL]

 

[Kompromat]

@gambit

Do you think, given our limited resources retrofitting a handful of our Mirages for this role would be a worthwhile investment?

They will the increase the surviveability of our limited fighter fleet. (F-16s and JF-17s) in the face of more sophisticated threats from the regional air forces. Since our resources are limited, building a custom built ELINT/EW JF-17 may prove too expensive for us.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Not going to be an easy modification, though. For the EF-111, estimated we were about %65 close to designing a new aircraft. Power generators must be upgraded. New wiring and cooling runs must be new and re-designed for the area. Weight and balances recalculated. Even though the EW antennas will be directional, shielding must be installed at the immediate area to protect aircraft avionics from any possible powerful stray signals from the ECM transmissions.

A costly upgrade in other words, because isrealis just did that to Kfir [Block 60] that is why it costs as much as JF-17 block I.

Kfir block 60 8000 hours flight potential on body and systems. Full wiring replacement and other systems replacement as required.

 

[gambit]

@gambit

Do you think, given our limited resources retrofitting a handful of our Mirages for this role would be a worthwhile investment?

They will the increase the surviveability of our limited fighter fleet. (F-16s and JF-17s) in the face of more sophisticated threats from the regional air forces. Since our resources are limited, building a custom built ELINT/EW JF-17 may prove too expensive for us.

Depends on the PAF's scope of air combat doctrines. The EF-111 and its cousins were created because we did not want to fight a defensive air war. A dedicated jammer is best when used offensively -- taking the EW fight to the enemy. Prevent him from taking off in the first place by destroying his air force on the ground.

Electronic Warfare is about denying the enemy the ability to (re)direct and re(focus) his weapons. The analogy is blinding him or doing something to force him to close his eyes, not about blocking his punches and kicks. That means if you are going to develop a dedicated jammer, your air combat doctrines must contain provisions to preemptively attack an enemy's air force which necessitate the company of an aircraft whose sole mission is to blind the enemy while your other aircrafts attacks the enemy's means of waging war. Those means could be an ammo factory, ships at docks, or an air base.

Personally, I am a strong supporter of a powerful dedicated EW platform and the willingness to strike deep into enemy territory. No better time than peacetime to start developing that capability, even with just a limited initial quantity.

 

[airmarshal]

Looking at the experience PAF has with maintaining, upgrading, cannibalizing Mirages of different models and different air forces, used and new, I do see an opportunity of buying used Mirage 2000s and convert them into effective ELINT platforms.

I think the advantage will be newer air frames & better engines.

 

[Donatello]

Modern EW equipment is big, bulky and power hungry. Where will you put it on MirageIII/V?

It's time to let these aircraft go.

Would be better if PAF developed a dedicated JF-17 in Wild Weasel role. Since all the hard points are MIL-STD compatible, they can carry EW equipment on hard points, plus modifying internal JF-17 structure to house more equipment. Since PAC already knows the design inside out, it would make more sense to have a dedicated JF-17 SEAD role aircraft like the USN F-18 Growler, and perhaps have these JF-17 with the AESA combination.

 

[Kompromat]

@gambit

* How hard it is to have powerful EW equipment shaped into pods. Not talking about self protection pods?

* How is energy managment done?

* If you were given charge to do this task what would you change in the JF-17 lets say to turn it into a dedicated EW plane for jamming enemy's poweful radars and electronics infrastructure?

Thanks in advance.

@Oscar

Do we have the industrial potential to develop a powerful EW suite, small enough to be conformally carried yet powerful enough to attack enemy's best radar and electronics infrastructure both on the ground and in the air?

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

Do we have the industrial potential to develop a powerful EW suite, small enough to be conformally carried yet powerful enough to attack enemy's best radar and electronics infrastructure both on the ground and in the air?

Not for the Mirage. But perhaps for the Da-20. However, the issue is with mismanagement(as is with India) and vested interests.

 

[Kompromat]

@Oscar

You mean that we can't 'miniturise' them?

 

[nangyale]

A very good idea and one I hope PAC is already working on. But one that should be used for Thunders. It's an investment and a future technology that we need for the airforce, so we need to put it on a platform that we will be using well in to the future. Currently we have all the infrastructure for the Mirages but all of that will be closing down, as more thunders join, more mirages will retire, eventually we will have to retire all those mirages while the 17s will be flying in PAF color for quite some years to come.
We need to remember that the airforce is not just for defense but also a tool for taking war to the enemy, and for that we need an aircraft which can go with the strike package.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

You mean that we can't 'miniturise' them?

We outsource most of our substrate and chipset manufacturing to China. They can minaturize it but QA remains a major issue.