Mirage-III ROSE, retrofitted for EW/ELINT role?

[Kompromat]

@Oscar

QA = Quality Assuarence?

So you are saying that 'designing' such a package is not impossible for us, but QA of chipsets built in China is?

 

[razgriz19]

@razgriz19

* NOT all, Mirage air frames are 'ancient'. There are newer air frames with considerable amount of hours left.

* We don't need a large number of Mirages for this role. A handful will cut it for us.

* Yes i'm aware that there is the parts issue. However i'd ask you to watch the PAC presentation about the Mirage factory. We can easily build new parts for air frame upgrades, retrofitting and newer avionics package if needed.

* We still have a large quantity of these Mirages. If the parts like the engine parts ain't available, we can still keep these handful ELINT/EW jets flying for the forseeable future by 'cannibalizing' parts from the jets that have been phased out.

* Jf-17s for this role will be 'too expensive' for our pocket.

* Please note that i'm not arguing to raise a large quantity of such ACs but a handful of them, according to our needs.

I see your point, keeping a squadron or two wouldn't be such a bad idea for ELINT role.
However, i was telling Mr. AzadPakistan that overhauling the entire fleet is not feasible.

And btw, I'm sure PAF will keep at least a squadron for another decade or so as some mirages are capable of launching Ra'ad cruise missile. And I'm sure PAF chose the newest air frames for this role. It would make sense if these same mirages are also assigned the ELINT/EW role.
Don't you think?

 

[Dazzler]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

Most of our Mirs are 40 years old !! We have already done unthinkable experimentation on them, including ELINT system integration at one stage.

French can afford it cuz they make the damn plane so no issue in maintenance and stuff. PAF has extended plans for her own baby.

 

[Khaqan Humayun]

Gents, i was thinking that instead of phasing out all Mirages, the PAF should keep a handful of Mirage-III-ROSE jets with lesser air frame hours.

They should, put them through the structural upgrades to extend their life a bit longer, strip up its weapons systems/sub systems. Then they should be installed with a powerful Electronic Warfare, Electronic Counter Measures, Electronic Counter, Counter Measures, Electronic Decoys and a sophisticated Jamming suite.

These Mirages have IFR, Long range, datalink, the ground support infrastructure and training is in already in place. When retrofitted for a dedicated 'ELINT/EW' these Mirages because of their speed and range, would be able to perform 'Escort Jamming' as well as 'Stand Off Jamming' as well as being able to Jamm SAM threats.

If the gun bay system is replaced with a 'Low-High Bandwith Jamming' suite, it will allow for the 'podded' EW suites to be employed on the external hard points, which means that it may be able to carry Air to Ground anti radiation ordnance too.

I think instead of putting all of the Mirages through a chain saw, we should use a handful of those air frames to be used as a dedicated ELINT/EW platform to complement the Dassault Falcon-20s and Hawker-800s. JF-17s can't be used for this role because it will cost us $20-25 million, for the plane alone. Upgrading a good handfull of our old Mirage-III ROSE to fulfill this role would be a 'cost effective' way of doing it.

Please have your say.

Thanks l Aero


@Oscar @TaimiKhan @gambit @Luftwaffe @Dazzler @Manticore @Pfpilot

we must not retire any aircraft even F7pg we must send them to study completely buy our young engineer then they make changes add fuel tanks redesign cockpit enhance weapon carrying capability work on engine start learning reverse engineering as China did and made its own J11 and J15 through reverse engineering.

 

[MilSpec]

We outsource most of our substrate and chipset manufacturing to China. They can minaturize it but QA remains a major issue.

from Pac's website, there seem to be a comprehensive testing protocol for electronic subsystems.

 

[Bilal.]

from Pac's website, there seem to be a comprehensive testing protocol for electronic subsystems.

Yes, he is talking about the rejection rate of components I think and about not faulty components leaking into operational systems, which, would be the case if not for the strong testing protocols in place.

 

[SQ8]

from Pac's website, there seem to be a comprehensive testing protocol for electronic subsystems.

Testing is on this end. But it depends on the Chinese manufacturer employed to provide sufficient quality in batches. Ironically, these very manufactures provide components for other firms such as Foxxconn or directly to samsung and apple and there they deliver with high accuracy.

 

[SQ8]

@Oscar

QA = Quality Assuarence?

So you are saying that 'designing' such a package is not impossible for us, but QA of chipsets built in China is?

Aero.. designing a package requires two things.. good engineers and a good software. We have access to both. It also requires good management of those engineers to apply them correctly in good project management.. we lack this because every mai-ka-laal in Pakistan who's either done his PhD or out of Kakul things he is a great project manager. Its only in the civilian sector where people actually demand courses being taken. One exception are the semi-civilian or civilian suppliers to the military industry but they lack the manpower as such currently to undertake such a project on their own.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Electronic Warfare is about denying the enemy the ability to (re)direct and re(focus) his weapons. The analogy is blinding him or doing something to force him to close his eyes, not about blocking his punches and kicks. That means if you are going to develop a dedicated jammer, your air combat doctrines must contain provisions to preemptively attack an enemy's air force which necessitate the company of an aircraft whose sole mission is to blind the enemy while your other aircrafts attacks the enemy's means of waging war. Those means could be an ammo factory, ships at docks, or an air base.

as I was reading your post I could recall the actual news footage and the documentary of operation desert storm where the Raven was the tip of the strike force consisting of bombers and air cover.

leading the strike force the Raven's EW systems fried the Iraqi air defenses and early warning installations.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Not for the Mirage. But perhaps for the Da-20. However, the issue is with mismanagement(as is with India) and vested interests.

Mirage air frames have outlived their useful life for many decades. looking at the attrition rates I dont see any wisdom in flying these relics. let them rest in peace with grace

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Based on what I have read , Pakistani Engineers if all but Mastered the Mirage platform
end to end overhaul , perhaps taking every component of the plane apart.

At this stage , I feel that doing a fleet enhancement would be cheaper option, JF17 thunder is not going away anywhere. In-fact we will score 100 plane century soon in 1-2 years time

However, what Mirage offer is

a) Just missing Recon and Targeting Pod upgrade (This is really the big one missing)
b) Every thing else works and has been upgraded with Radar & Data Transfer two huge ones.
c) HUDs and weapon's system great additions.

I would assume , the upgrade would cost us 1.5 Million- 2.0 Million per plane considering most of the engineering is done in Pakistan.

Perhaps we are looking at $175-210 Million to standardize Mirages to modern Standard. And that brings it close to F16 C/D levels

Look at China they are upgrading their JH-1A to JH-1B

Mirage is a vital platform, we must strive to learn the missing components in house

Reference:
Aselsan | ASELPOD Advanced Targeting Pod

ASELPOD is a multi-sensor targeting pod consisting of:

• High Resolution, 3rd generation FLIR
• Laser Range Finder / Target Designator
• Laser Spot Tracker
• Laser Pointer
• Advanced Video Tracking (Simultaneously on IR/Day Video)
• IR/Day Video & Mission History Recording
• Advanced Image Processing
• Providing Highly Accurate Geo-Location Coordinates
• Growth Potential for Mission Requirements

Advanced IR Imaging
ASELPOD thermal camera incorporates a 3rd generation mid-wave IR detector with three discrete Field-of-Views namely Super Wide FOV, Wide FOV and Narrow FOV. Super Wide FOV gives pilot navigation capability and hence situational awareness. ASELPOD has a superior IR image performance over all field of views The image quality is enhanced with real-time advanced image processing algorithms in order to provide the best informative IR image..

Multiple Target Tracking
ASELPOD provides both video and inertial tracking in two major modes, Air-to-Ground and Air-to-Air mode. It provides Point and Area sub-track modes in both IR and Day Video. Each tracking mode contains an inertial tracker that provides for accurate system pointing in the presence of scene obscurations. ASELPOD can track up to four targets simultaneously in both IR and Day Video.


Image Stabilization
ASELPOD provides outstanding image stabilization by utilizing four-axes gimbaled infrastructure inside the sensor head. LOS is accurately stabilized under different flight conditions.


Targeting and Platform Alignment Capabilities
Special navigation algorithms utilizing platform navigation data in conjunction with internal IMU data provide accurate estimates of target location, course and speed. A self alignment with the platform is also achieved automatically by using transfer alignment algorithms which eliminates fine boresighting procedures.

Laser Range Finder / Laser Designator (LRF/LD)
ASELPOD has a dual-wavelength diode pumped laser. Laser Designator is capable of designating targets by using NATO PRF codes. With the built in dual wavelength LRF, ASELPOD can supply accurate range information for both 1570nm and 1064nm wavelengths at high altitudes.


Laser Spot Tracker (LST)
With the incorporated LST, ASELPOD can track and lock on the targets illuminated by exterior laser sources.

Laser Pointer
ASELPOD incorporates a night vision compatible Laser Pointer for illumination of the targets.

Solid State Recorder (SSR)
ASELPOD includes a SSR for reliable recording of IR/Day Video for ground debriefing.


Mechanical Design
ASELPOD is designed to attain maximum functionality in a rather compact body. Four-axes gimbal design enables improved LOS stability. Pod structure is designed to withstand the extreme environmental conditions experienced on modern fighter jets. ASELPOD has an Environmental Conditioning Unit (ECU) for electronics cooling. The ECU incorporates Vapor Cycle Cooling System that uses air as coolant.

 

[HAIDER]

If pod can work with Chinese F7, why not with Mirage.

South Africa modernizing its Mirage fleet. Recently new pods for Mirage/Cheetach C.

 

[SQ8]

If pod can work with Chinese F7, why not with Mirage.

South Africa modernizing its Mirage fleet. Recently new pods for Mirage/Cheetach C.

Highly unlikely this is recent. South Africa sold its Cheetahs to Ecuador over two years ago. It now only flies Gripens.

 

[Bilal.]

If any such system is developed the only suitable platform for it would be thunder. The reason being:

- we spent millions on ROSE program we can't just through away all ROSE related electronics and weapons integration
- they are playing an important stopgap role till they are replaced by either JFTs or J-10s
- even the newest airframes are decades old. By the time they are freed up after replacement, they will be extremely old and it won't make sense to spend huge sums on such ancient airframes

 

[Dazzler]

If pod can work with Chinese F7, why not with Mirage.

its years old, an early derivative of FILAT targeting pod, tested on Q-5III, FILAT pod has atleast three generations in active service, WMD-7 is the most recent, active on JH-7A and jf-17.