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Mirage, F-7PG and other combat aircrafts

I was just wondering that in the light of the PAF allocated resources from the defence budget - is the PAF still embarking on a cost-effective strategy or is there room to be more effective with the limited resources at its disposal?

In view of the future trend that most air combat would be at beyond visual range (and a very low chance of actual 'dog fights' as in previous conflicts)....would it be better for the PAF to upgrade its 'old' or 2nd/3rd generation aircraft with BVR capability and support it with AWAC/AEW and electronic warfare aircraft?

My point is that since Radar is a primary means of offensive detection, but as an emission it is easily detectable by an adversary, which can usually gauge the degree of threat from the mode used, and take appropriate countermeasures - electronic or manoeuvre. For this reason, the most appropriate radar mode for many situations is standby, activating it the last possible moment.

There is an alternative, which I think looks very attractive. This is remote targeting, in which missile launch data is provided from off-board sources, such as other fighters, AWACS, or ground control. The air combat equivalent of the discovered check in chess, this allows surprise attacks to be made from unexpected quarters.

So in a nutshell....A fighter using its radar to detect its prey at once reveals its presence, its position, and often its intent. The answer is remote targeting, in which ground radar and/ or AWACS provide target information via a secure data link. This allows missile launch without direct contact, and without the target being alerted.
Would it be feasible for the PAF to upgrade (on cheap basis) its older aircraft (BVR capable) and cause a would be adversary some 'serious' problems in the event of a conflict?

I think the F7s and Mirages can be an effective detterence aircraft if it was BVR capable.....future air conflict is essentially on who is able to detect and fire their BVR missiles......thus, until new aircraft are available - this could be a better interim measure? I think with the AWACS and electronic Countermeasure aircrafts it could be effective?
 
@foxhound
the upgraded mirages are BVR capable.
and soon the older aircrafts will be phased out by the jf-17s.
 
What BVR missiles does the PAF carry ?
 
Kafir hai Toa karta hai Shamsheer per bharosa; Momin hai to Bai Taigh bhi larrta hai sipahi.

.......

as much I like this saying but this is outdated now..

there are time when a momin needs his sword and their combination is a deadly one for the enemies.


Walid bin Utbah
Marhab
and Umru bin Abduwad

the above famous champions found it the hard way when they met Ali ibn Abi Talib and his Zulfiqar during the battle of Badr, Khyber and Khandaq

in the current war in the technological context the generation gap has to be very small for any chance of a fight and reaction


when one can be out gunned out shot, out seen and out maneuvered then its a waste of a fine pilot sending him on a dated technology when the adversery is in a Mig-29 and later planes
 
Why PAF not upgrading his F7pg its new fghters delivered in 2002 from China.
i mean BVR capability radar etc.
 
Why PAF not upgrading his F7pg its new fghters delivered in 2002 from China.
i mean BVR capability radar etc.

The aircraft is designed in such a way that it has a small nose, hence a smaller radar. So it can not detect anything beyond 40 kms.

Even the Bisons are blind after 55 kms. Hence they are being replaced. There is no way to upgrade these aircraft. It is better you replace them all with JF17.
 
The aircraft is designed in such a way that it has a small nose, hence a smaller radar. So it can not detect anything beyond 40 kms.

Even the Bisons are blind after 55 kms. Hence they are being replaced. There is no way to upgrade these aircraft. It is better you replace them all with JF17.
SANTRO did mention that they have their specific role.
replacing all of them requires $$ and time. with the limited budget paf is doing everything it can.
 
F-7 with JS-6 Glide Bomb: China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation - Precision Guided Bomb

111l35t.jpg
 
well F 7 is still good interceptor against Mig 21 bis our pilots have bettter trainening than IAF pilots so what ever flaws F 7 has which i dont think so even if it has slight miss advantage it wont metter because trainning of pilot will come in account too
Well I doubt that, here is the reason why.
1) First they wont meet head on, chances are very low. Maybe ur F16 with our bison or our Jaguar / MKI by ur F7 and F16.
2) Even if they meet what good a pilot can do if he cant see the enemy(considering that F7 enters Indian airspace and bison scrambles).
3) Dont ignore the BVR capability of an enemy plane.
4) Again both planes are used for defensive role...
 
F-7 PG is a very economical solution right now for PAF.

It is a greatly improved F-7, some say the best variant of Mig-21 ever.

Here is the impression of Air Cdr Kaiser Tufail after he evaluated F-7 PG

Pakistan Military Consortium :: www.PakDef.info

It was a most pleasant surprise to note that the turn rates were nearer to the F-16 at medium to high altitudes and, were exactly as advertised. A 33% improvement over the F-7P at 5,000’ AMSL, 50% at 10,000’ and 66% at 20,000 would certainly call for an end to the “supersonic sports plane” sobriquet that dogged its forerunners.

The thrust increase was evidenced by a 25% improvement in acceleration time from 500 kph to 1100 kph and an equally impressive time-to-climb to 36,000’ AMSL. All improvements were verified and were found to be as advertised or even better. Even more remarkable was the fact that these trials took place in hot and humid weather, well outside the 15°C, 1013 hP environments in which the specifications are usually engineered.

Compared to the F-7P’s take-off speed of 310 kph, the MG lifted off at 280 kph with ease and the advertised 35% improvement in take-off distance was on the mark. The sight of the auto-manoeuvring flaps at work reminded the pilots of the F-16’s computer-controlled leading edge devices. Packaging the servo motors and actuators within the thin leading edge without the tell-tale bulges has certainly been a marvel of engineering at Chengdu Aircraft Corporation (CAC).

Evaluation showed that with respect to F-7P, F-7PG had a
35% imporvement in take-off distance
33% improvement in turn rate at 5000 feet
50% improvement in in turn rate at 10000 feet
66% improvement in turn rate at 20000 feet.
At least 25-33% reduction in the safe speed required for low speed loop...likely to be even better at lower altitudes.
In fact turn rate at med to high altitudes is close to F-16.
Lower speeds required for landing.
Glide ratio of 1:8.5 compares favorably with some modern fighters
50% improvement in spool up time
25% improvement in time for acceleration (500Km/h to 1100Km/h) and climb speed.

This article seems to agree that F-7PG's close combat capability is very close to that of F-16. In chinese simulations, it has also beaten SU-27 in close combat

F-7PG uses Grifo-7PG RADAR which has a little more range than the Grifo 7, plus some other technological advancements.

The F-7PG is capable of firing :

AIM-9P
AIM-9L
PL-9C

PAF initially ordered 46 single seater and 9 trainers. They were so impressed with its capabilities that later they ordered another 11 single seaters

f-7pgs are same as MIG-21 dude even f-7 has new air frame then MIGs and do you check the record of nig-21 crash rate? our f-7s are main interceptors on all over Pakistan . abut mirages you know some thing what shape they got after rose upgrade? they can fire cruse missiles ans BVRs with air refueling they are working horses bro. you underestimate them because they are old then you have to know f-7s are newer then our our f-16 and mirages 50 which we got from Libya they was brand new. there is much much power in these air crafts. yes they have to be replace but mirage rose and f-7pg will never grab as you think.you know who much they are 400 jets.just think again.
 
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I came to know that F-7PG and earlier versions doesn't have a HUD.

I wonder there must be somethng overthere to at least AIM :)

anyone got cockpit pics? I will appreciate that.

F-7W: First J-7 export model with a HUD. The smaller canopy and the small window behind it were replaced by a larger canopy so that the small window no longer existed on J-7 models from then on. The first customer was Jordan, but the aircraft did not enter Jordanian service, instead, the aircraft ended up in Iraqi hands. (source is wikipedia).
 
I came to know that F-7PG and earlier versions doesn't have a HUD.

I wonder there must be somethng overthere to at least AIM :)

anyone got cockpit pics? I will appreciate that.

F-7W: First J-7 export model with a HUD. The smaller canopy and the small window behind it were replaced by a larger canopy so that the small window no longer existed on J-7 models from then on. The first customer was Jordan, but the aircraft did not enter Jordanian service, instead, the aircraft ended up in Iraqi hands. (source is wikipedia).
PAF f-7s had HUD from the day one 1988
 

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