Ministry Keen to Purchase 500 More Howitzer Guns from BAE Systems

[Capt.Popeye]

@Joe Shearer @DESERT FIGHTER @TankMan In an age of MLRS & Self Propelled Artillery, what do you make of this "additional" 500 towed units?

"Wallah"! Mr. @Khafee; do I hear a "professional" speaking?

@Joe Shearer; whats up with some of the "professionals" nowadays? Have 'labels' been doled out like lollpops among the 'Snotties' ?

I would be surprised If IAF also doesn't have a squadron or two of Mi26 helos in their plans- The load hauling capabilities of these have no parallel-

Just as the pain and expense of owning and operating them are unparalleled too.....

 

[surya kiran]

"Wallah"! Mr. @Khafee; do I hear a "professional" speaking?

@Joe Shearer; whats up with some of the "professionals" nowadays? Have 'labels' been doled out like lollpops among the 'Snotties' ?



Just as the pain and expense of owning and operating them are unparalleled too.....

Somebody has had a long vacation .

By the way, just bought Transition to Triumph and Man who bombed Karachi. Any other book you recommend for 1971 naval war? @niaz @Joe Shearer

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Just as the pain and expense of owning and operating them are unparalleled too.....

Yes It is but unique challenges demand unique solution- Now the Chinese are developing a 33ton chopper with Russians to address the unique challenges they face-

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Somebody has had a long vacation .

By the way, just bought Transition to Triumph and Man who bombed Karachi. Any other book you recommend for 1971 naval war? @niaz @Joe Shearer

No, Compadre; was very busy with some extremely creative and productive projects, besides being intellectually stimulating.

About those books now; 'Man who bombed Karachi' is a bit of a self-serving epistle; though Nanda has pretty much stuck to the facts overall.

Yes It is but unique challenges demand unique solution- Now the Chinese are developing a 33ton chopper with Russians to address the unique challenges they face-

Then that is a bit like: "throwing good money after bad".......

The worlds first rifle/musket/hand cannon was invented in was invented in the 13th Century.

We still continue to use them today. Only with tech. advancement we call them "assault rifle" now.

The worlds first cannon was invented in the 13th century too, so no prize for guessing we will continue to use them in the near future.

Artillery is arguably the most lethal form of land-based armament currently employed by any army world wide. Their use in Mountain warfare is priceless.

Considering India has around 10,000 km of Mountain border (including Nepal and Bhutan) 500 light weight artillery gun is far too little. We really need something in the range of 5000 Light weight 155 mm Guns.


No amount of Helicopter or Pinaka or Smerch can replace this versatile warfare equipment.

Hey @raktaka; that was quite a neat explanation, and it adhered to the principles of KISS too.
But the guy is a "professional"..... he'd probably know all of that, I guess. Just as he'd know what the terrain is like in the mountains and how that affects mobility etc.

But your math on the numbers, i.e. 5000 is......... is in the region of
No General will want to park a Howitzer on every peak!
500 makes the cut, more rationally speaking.

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Then that is a bit like: "throwing good money after bad".......

I would not call that bad just yet- even before the 1st prototype-

 

[raktaka]

Hey @raktaka; that was quite a neat explanation, and it adhered to the principles of KISS too.
But the guy is a "professional"..... he'd probably know all of that, I guess. Just as he'd know what the terrain is like in the mountains and how that affects mobility etc.

But your math on the numbers, i.e. 5000 is......... is in the region of
No General will want to park a Howitzer on every peak!
500 makes the cut, more rationally speaking.

During Kargil the Indian army used 100-120 guns at a time in concert to demolish bunkers and demoralize the enemy. For recapturing Tiger hill area itself the Indian Army used 300 guns.

Now this was an extremely limited, and localized war in a relatively very small geographical area.

Imagine if we had to find a war all along the Himalays with pakistan and china joining hands. Even without pakistan if China was to hold positions along multiple locations our current number of guns will be nowhere enough. So far our procurement was done with primarily pakistan in mind.

With our new look at China and a possibility (however remote) of a two Front war our realistic needs far exceed our current inventory.

The constraint is budget for both guns and ammunitions required to feed such a large number of guns. But in the future that is what we would be looking at, of that I am certain.

In fact after Kargil there was a proposal for by a few young Turks in the IA to have a doctrine of a "Wall of Fire" using 10,000 pieces of Artillery. ...... again the real problem is "Budget". (which includes logistics)

Our current doctrine of "cold start" or "short quick war" also seeks to have massive fire power for a short duration. Quick moving Light weight Artillery guns would be the first to be considered.

 

[BABA AGHORI]

Please tell this to DRDO also and stop wasting your time on Arjun, Tejas, Nishant and many more just prepare the shoping list.

Thanks for the Advice.. It's our money our guns; Let us take the pain too .

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I would not call that bad just yet- even before the 1st prototype-

Simply based on the design elements and parameters of the Mi-26; yes..... it is bad money after good.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Thanks for the Advice.. It's our money our guns; Let us take the pain too .

Take it bro since thread posted on Pakistan Defence Forum and i am a register member here, i would like to share my thoughts and if you don't like it put me in your ignore list or find my posts offensive or abusive, you can report me.
Regards,

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

In fact after Kargil there was a proposal for by a few young Turks in the IA to have a doctrine of a "Wall of Fire" using 10,000 pieces of Artillery. ...... again the real problem is "Budget". (which includes logistics)

The age of WWII era is over- flexibility and mobility is more important while considering asset utilization- 10000 artillery pieces would also be a nightmare to logistics and evacuation in case of counter strike by air- all good for besieging cities and scaring large army columns moving which I doubt the future wars to be like-

Simply based on the design elements and parameters of the Mi-26; yes..... it is bad money after good.

I hope a new approach like modular carriage which is easily replaceable like in Ka-226- better weight utilization- among improvements in other areas like electronic controls and power plant- But that I can only make guess here- however requirement remains-

 

[BABA AGHORI]

Take it bro since thread posted on Pakistan Defence Forum and i am a register member here, i would like to share my thoughts and if you don't like it put me in your ignore list or find my posts offensive or abusive, you can report me.
Regards,

Sir, That is exactly why i thanked you.. but we are cunning Hindu bania kom, who thinks for the future and very well knows what will benefit us in the long run.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I hope a new approach like modular carriage which is easily replaceable like in Ka-226- better weight utilization- among improvements in other areas like electronic controls and power plant- But that I can only make guess here- however requirement remains-

The requirement remains the same, but unfulfilled by the Mi-26. Do not get taken in just by the size of that behemoth or by the lifting capacity as stated in specs. All that capability 'falls-off' rapidly under "hot and high" conditions. Remember that you have to factor in the Helo's own fuel consumption which it must carry in order to lift a payload. Or things like HOGE and HIGE capabilities. Somebody (Dr.Vivek Ahuja, I think) has explained empirically and quite comprehensively how the Mi-26 is not such a "heavy-lifter" after all, in all conditions. Google that to get a clearer understanding of that.
I'll add one more thing to it; the survivability of the Chinook is superior to that of the Mi-26.

So, the Chinook and the M-777 Howitzer are pretty much made for each other; apart from the greater utility of the Chinook as an airlifter in general. The C-130 and Chinook Combo will revolutionise last-mile deliverability for the Indain Armed Forces in the North and Northeast.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Sir, That is exactly why i thanked you.. but we are cunning Hindu bania kom, who thinks for the future and very well knows what will benefit us in the long run.

bro seriously i don't think so if you people are such cleaver, previously i was also thinking you people are the most clever but when you elect Mr. Modi as your P.M i change my thinking if you think in long terms you find Modi ji as on payroll of ISI he is doing the same what we want in long terms. No offense just my thoughts

Regards,

 

[raktaka]

The age of WWII era is over- flexibility and mobility is more important while considering asset utilization- 10000 artillery pieces would also be a nightmare to logistics and evacuation in case of counter strike by air- all good for besieging cities and scaring large army columns moving which I doubt the future wars to be like-

I am talking about its use from the 13th century and you are talking about WW 2 ?

Even the US used almost a 400 Artillery guns in Afghanistan. This apart from having 105mm Gun mounted on the C130 that gives it unmatched ability.

And I am talking about the ENTIRE HIMALAYAS from Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh.

The only alternative to larger number of Guns is the use of Precision guided Ammunition which India does not have nor are we any closer to developing them.

Precision guided Ammo like 'Excalibur" can improve effectiveness by 80-90% and thus reduce the number of guns required. The other alternative is a much larger number of Guns. There is no other way in Hilly terrains.

Naturally such Light Guns will required the necessary infra to move it quickly too. Was that every in doubt ? hence the frequent reference to "Budget".

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

The requirement remains the same, but unfulfilled by the Mi-26. Do not get taken in just by the size of that behemoth or by the lifting capacity as stated in specs. All that capability 'falls-off' rapidly under "hot and high" conditions. Remember that you have to factor in the Helo's own fuel consumption which it must carry in order to lift a payload. Or things like HOGE and HIGE capabilities. Somebody (Dr.Vivek Ahuja, I think) has explained empirically and quite comprehensively how the Mi-26 is not such a "heavy-lifter" after all, in all conditions. Google that to get a clearer understanding of that.
I'll add one more thing to it; the survivability of the Chinook is superior to that of the Mi-26.

So, the Chinook and the M-777 Howitzer are pretty much made for each other; apart from the greater utility of the Chinook as an airlifter in general. The C-130 and Chinook Combo will revolutionise last-mile deliverability for the Indain Armed Forces in the North and Northeast.

I never questioned Chinook- And is much more than M-777 hauler- for example Its ability to land on water-

Mi-26 certainly requires many modifications- However that thing holds the record of some 56ton at 2000m- It sure has potential- And If proper money and time is spend on It can prove to be a force multiplier-

Chinook would sure be more survivable even If we just take size in consideration- That is why Chinook have been used in tactical troop deployment and Behind enemy line operation while Mi-26 can only dream of any such thing- What I was implying is the ability of Mi-26 as a hauler of heavy war fighting equipment in class of 10-15 ton- to inaccessible locations-

But yes I agree Mi-26 in its current form is a costly and difficult machine to have and maintain-

I am talking about its use from the 13th century and you are talking about WW 2 ?

Even the US used almost a 400 Artillery guns in Afghanistan. This apart from having 105mm Gun mounted on the C130 that gives it unmatched ability.

And I am talking about the ENTIRE HIMALAYAS from Kashmir to Arunachal Pradesh.

The only alternative to larger number of Guns is the use of Precision guided Ammunition which India does not have nor are we any closer to developing them.

Precision guided Ammo like 'Excalibur" can improve effectiveness by 80-90% and thus reduce the number of guns required. The other alternative is a much larger number of Guns. There is no other way in Hilly terrains.

Naturally such Light Guns will required the necessary infra to move it quickly too. Was that every in doubt ? hence the frequent reference to "Budget".

I am not any artillery expert but 300 ULHs in Kashmir and 400-500 in Arunachal and a 50-80 in sikkim would be enough on all fronts with China and Pakistan- then there are always guns like Dhanush and FH77 which is more user friendly and would be less expensive-

And Precision guided ammo is definitely the key to future- as seen in Afghanistan-

Yes easier to move but not in numbers of 1000s- It would be time consuming and would take months-