MiG Still Hopes for Indian MiG-35 Order

[sancho]

How dare you to say something like that?

Nothing wrong in it, since they were able to do it then, by the fact that they could offer things, the we otherwise couldn't get and as you know very well, they did the same with you surley too.

 

[Kiss_of_the_Dragon]

Nothing wrong in it, since they were able to do it then, by the fact that they could offer things, the we otherwise couldn't get and as you know very well, they did the same with you surley too.

But the difference between China and India, it's that we have Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V that's not possible with India.

 

[tvsram1992]

Mig-21 was an interceptor with very low maintenance cost, Mig-35 has one of the highest maintenance cost of all the competitors.

Time has changed since induction of Mig21 so as role and costs . An air superiority fighter like Mig35 should be used for the interception especially when the enemy aircraft can perform air to air role . We can have less training costs , unit cost and best war time support if we go for Mig35 .

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

It could have been possible if we didn't go for mirage upgrade,could have used that money for some.But IAF is tired of different fighter types,soon types will come down with retirement of older machines.

 

[Ping]

Please inform yourself about the matter before making such claims

I suggest you inform yourself first. We have been asembling Su-30MKI and manufacturing major components of it inhouse. But there is the LCA?

check out the link
Welcome to Aircraft Compare

it says $30 million for mig35, i said $5million more

That link is a third party link without quoting any news sources. Dont believe it.
MiG-29K with all the carrier modifications costs 32 million back in 2004-2005. The rest of the money 14.5 million went to training, support, spares and weapons. Lets assume MiG-35 would have costed the same 32 million dollars back then.. (minus the costly carrier modifications plus AESA and other goodies). With the price increase, it is safer to assume the MiG-35's cost would be anywhere between 38 to 45 million dollars. The recent MiG-29k deal does not separate the cost deal like the earlier one.... hence couldn't take that one to compare.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I suggest you inform yourself first. We have been asembling Su-30MKI and manufacturing major components of it inhouse. But there is the LCA?


That link is a third party link. Dont believe it.
MiG-29K with all the carrier modifications costs 32 million back in 2004-2005. The rest of the money 14.5 million went to training, support, spares and weapons. Lets assume MiG-35 would have costed the same 32 million dollars back then.. (minus the costly carrier modifications plus AESA and other goodies). With the price increase, it is safer to assume the MiG-35's cost would be anywhere between 38 to 45 million dollars. The recent MiG-29k deal does not separate the cost deal like the earlier one.... hence couldn't take that one to compare.

MIG-29K's unit costs are greater than $37mn for sure.

 

[Scorpion666]

well if we are seriously focusing on LCA mark I and II than there is no space for this aircraft.....

LCA to udey !! Mark 1 n 2 can be thought about then

 

[Ping]

MIG-29K's unit costs are greater than $37mn for sure.

A $740 million contract was signed on 20 January 2004, which will supply the Indian Navy with 16 MiG-29 aircraft (12 single-seat 'K' variants and 4 dual-seat 'KUB' variants). The contract also includes the full hardware for training maintenance & flying personnel, including simulators and interactive ground & sea based training systems. An option to acquire 30 additional aircraft by 2015, was also included in the contract. Reportedly in 2008, the Indian Navy exercised the option to purchase the 30 additional aircraft, which will include 4 dual-seat 'KUB' trainers. When all deliveries are completed, 38 single seat fighters and 8 dual seat trainers will have been inducted. Mikhail A Pogosyan, who serves as the head of Mikoyan, stated at Aero India '09 that the first four aircraft will be delivered in 2009 and delivery of the remaining aircraft will be completed by 2010. Vice Admiral Madanjit Singh, at a press conference on 13 April 2005, pegged the price of each aircraft at $32 million. Based on this calculation, the $740 million contract works out to $46.25 million per aircraft. The additional $14.25 million per aircraft (or $228 million in total) includes the cost of the full hardware for training personnel, simulators and interactive ground & sea based training systems.
Hami Multimedia arat-raks hak.com/NAVY/Aviation/Aircraft/125-Mig-29k.html

 

[sancho]

Based on this calculation, the $740 million contract works out to $46.25 million per aircraft.

That's why I said, that it's more realistic that a Mig 35 with all the additional features and including a licence production deal would easily had costed around $60 millions per unit system cost. if not more.
The Mig had never a chance in the competition, since it didn't offered what we wanted, be it industrial advantage, or operational once, with more advanced weapons and capabilities, or simply less dependence from Russian fighters. The major mistake that the Russians did however, was to offer it as a newly developed version, with increased payload, additional hardpoints, as well as more internal fuel for more range.
If they had provided us the Mig 29K production line instead, for the additional 29 and based the Mig 35 offer on this carrier version (similar to the F18SH), possibly with Indian AESA of the LCA MK2 and in future with Kaveri engines, IAF/MoD might not had been able to resist. They might have even skipped LCA Mk1 and integrated this fighter directly, with LCA MK2 following.

But they didn't and no matter how often they will offer it, IAF won't go back for Migs anymore!

 

[madmusti]

MiG-35 will be a good choice ,if India want it.

I mean it´s way easier to adopt into the Indian Air Force then something like Rafale.

MiG-35 is too a 4.5 generation fighter aircraft and Cheaper & Better.


But anyway , Does not India has choose the Rafale ? So how can Russia hope for an additional Deal ?

 

[jamesseo89]

I am 100% sure that in coming times IAF will going to order about 60-90 MiG-35s but not now... Also I am sure that Russians might be offering some used MiG-29s with upgrade to IAF. But what is the current MiG-29s fleet in IAF??

 

[Ping]

That's why I said, that it's more realistic that a Mig 35 with all the additional features and including a licence production deal would easily had costed around $60 millions per unit system cost. if not more.
The Mig had never a chance in the competition, since it didn't offered what we wanted, be it industrial advantage, or operational once, with more advanced weapons and capabilities, or simply less dependence from Russian fighters. The major mistake that the Russians did however, was to offer it as a newly developed version, with increased payload, additional hardpoints, as well as more internal fuel for more range.
If they had provided us the Mig 29K production line instead, for the additional 29 and based the Mig 35 offer on this carrier version (similar to the F18SH), possibly with Indian AESA of the LCA MK2 and in future with Kaveri engines, IAF/MoD might not had been able to resist. They might have even skipped LCA Mk1 and integrated this fighter directly, with LCA MK2 following.

But they didn't and no matter how often they will offer it, IAF won't go back for Migs anymore!

MiG-29k needs specialized training and maintenance since it is a ship borne fighter. Its understandable why the training, maintenance, ans spares would cost so much. Besides, the smaller the order, the larger the unit cost of the fighter. With a large scale order, the unit cost will plummet.

And how did you know MiG wont accept? They didn't get to the negotiation stage.

Russian Navy's 20 MiG-29k(again a small order), but with all the goodies(AESA and next gen OLS) has an average cost of only $49million(2012-2013 cost), which includes training and everything.

In any case, it will be a lot cheaper than a over priced ripoff-fale.

Hope the MoD kicks the IAF in the rear and tells them to abstain from over priced shyt, and get its priorities straight and looks after its people first.

 

[sancho]

MiG-29k needs specialized training and maintenance since it is a ship borne fighter. Its understandable why the training, maintenance, ans spares would cost so much. Besides, the smaller the order, the larger the unit cost of the fighter. With a large scale order, the unit cost will plummet.

That's not correct since it's about basic training of systems, techs and flying, which is the same as for IAFs Mig 29UPGs, the carrier training is not included. Also the Mig 29K is based on the M /M2 airframe, which is the same for the widely sold SMT version and the radar, weapons and techs are also the same, just like the UPG once. The Mig 35 on the other side has new systems, like the AESA radar, or the optronics and as said, the airframe was meant to have changes as well and would be new too. So the number of of MMRCA doesn't really make it much cheaper, especially since the new capabilities makes the fighter several mios costlier first, because the development costs for AESA, OLS, or TVC will be added, which are not diverted to any other sold Mig. There is no way the Mig 35 could cost the same, let alone be even cheaper than a Mig 29K!

Btw, the follow deal for the 29 x Mig 29Ks, was for $1.5 billions => $51 million per unit!

http://en.rian.ru/military_news/20121229/178478220/Russia_Delivers_Four_MiG-29K_Fighters.html

And how did you know MiG wont accept? They didn't get to the negotiation stage.

Exactly because the Russian never offered anything that would be worth negotiating. The fighter is technologically and capabilitywise clearly inferior to Rafale or the EF. The industrial advantage is not existing, the operational and future upgrade costs the highest and former Air Chief Naik even openly stated that IAF don't want to put all eggs in one basket wrt the Mig 35 offer in MMRCA.

Russian Navy's 20 MiG-29k(again a small order), but with all the goodies(AESA and next gen OLS) has an average cost of only $49million(2012-2013 cost), which includes training and everything.

That's wrong, they get the same Mig 29K that we have, except of the western and Indian customizations. They don't have AESA, OLS or TVN:

Russian navy signs for MiG-29K fighters

Of check the pics of the Maks 2011 air show and you will see that neither OLS or TVN is fitted and the AESA was not ready developed when the order was placed, especially the A2G modes.

 

[Ping]

That's not correct since it's about basic training of systems, techs and flying, which is the same as for IAFs Mig 29UPGs, the carrier training is not included. Also the Mig 29K is based on the M /M2 airframe, which is the same for the widely sold SMT version and the radar, weapons and techs are also the same, just like the UPG once. The Mig 35 on the other side has new systems, like the AESA radar, or the optronics and as said, the airframe was meant to have changes as well and would be new too. So the number of of MMRCA doesn't really make it much cheaper, especially since the new capabilities makes the fighter several mios costlier first, because the development costs for AESA, OLS, or TVC will be added, which are not diverted to any other sold Mig. There is no way the Mig 35 could cost the same, let alone be even cheaper than a Mig 29K!

Btw, the follow deal for the 29 x Mig 29Ks, was for $1.5 billions => $51 million per unit!

Russia Delivers Four MiG-29K Fighters to India in Dec. | Defense | RIA Novosti




Exactly because the Russian never offered anything that would be worth negotiating. The fighter is technologically and capabilitywise clearly inferior to Rafale or the EF. The industrial advantage is not existing, the operational and future upgrade costs the highest and former Air Chief Naik even openly stated that IAF don't want to put all eggs in one basket wrt the Mig 35 offer in MMRCA.



That's wrong, they get the same Mig 29K that we have, except of the western and Indian customizations. They don't have AESA, OLS or TVN:

Russian navy signs for MiG-29K fighters

Of check the pics of the Maks 2011 air show and you will see that neither OLS or TVN is fitted and the AESA was not ready developed when the order was placed, especially the A2G modes.

"The Russian Navy aircraft will differ from the Indian Navy MiGs. “These airplanes will be made to a new technical specification that complies with [Russian] defense ministry requirements,” the manufacturer said. A new radar with active electronically scanned antenna (AESA) is expected to take the place of the Phazotron Zhuk-M with a slotted antenna and mechanical radar beam scanning, the radar fitted to the Indian MiGs.

Vladimir Barkovsky, chief of the MiG engineering center, said that in the course of RAC MiG’s unsuccessful bid for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft competition, the company demonstrated the performance of the Zhuk-MA on the MiG-35D demonstrator: “We demonstrated that the radar actually works in air-to-air and ground-mapping modes,” he explained. “It can select, discriminate and track targets. During these trials, the MiG-35 launched a missile that destroyed a drone using radar data for targeting.”

Get your facts straight, and check the date of your article.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...sea-trials-aboard-indias-new-aircraft-carrier

The follow on deals would have included a lot more weapons and spares since there hasn't been any separate deal for the weapons which would come along with the planes. And training on simulators and specialized land ramp, as mentioned in my link before costs more money, which are not required for a m/m2.

SMT's and M/M2 airframe is the same? Get your facts straight fanboy!

 

[mirage2K]

But the difference between China and India, it's that we have Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V that's not possible with India.

now you are talking like a true Cut Copy Paste party member