MiG-21s & F-7s Specifications & Capabilities

[NKVD]

I have already stated on the aerodynamics. Please read up on the aircrafts and ask doubts. I have no need to be a school teacher to every new tom, daud and hari.

Juts totell you "Not Trolling"
The Bison upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and
RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic
composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS
receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's
URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air
data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF
radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new
electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an
indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would “schlemm” an F-16 as well as the Luftwaffe MiG-29s did
Secondly We Have Phythons And Derby To Counter your Aim SidWinders On tech Perspective your And Availibility Paf is far Behind than When You Start Competing It With Iaf

 

[SQ8]

Juts totell you "Not Trolling"
The Bison upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and
RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic
composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS
receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's
URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air
data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF
radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new
electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an
indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would “schlemm” an F-16 as well as the Luftwaffe MiG-29s did
Secondly We Have Phythons And Derby To Counter your Aim SidWinders On tech Perspective your And Availibility Paf is far Behind than When You Start Competing It With Iaf

Most of above is irrelevant to the question of the WVR fight. The PG also has MFD.. and a Helmet mounted sight paired to the MAA-1 system purchased in 2008. It also has a fairly good RWR.. so thats also no biggie. The only advantage I see is the BVR and the "tempest" self protection jammer which give it an advantage to get to the merge. In plain aerodynamics.. the Bison is outclassed.. but has the clear edge in avionics. As I mentioned before .. the WVR fight is where the PG variant has an advantage.

The rest of your post is just sucking on your own dongle for joy and I have no time to entertain that. So if you are not convinced of the WVR then I suggest you agree to disagree and NOT post ANY further on this topic with the same parrot or you'll have to deal with me.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Most of above is irrelevant to the question of the WVR fight. The PG also has MFD.. and a Helmet mounted sight paired to the MAA-1 system purchased in 2008. It also has a fairly good RWR.. so thats also no biggie. The only advantage I see is the BVR and the "tempest" self protection jammer which give it an advantage to get to the merge. In plain aerodynamics.. the Bison is outclassed.. but has the clear edge in avionics. As I mentioned before .. the WVR fight is where the PG variant has an advantage.

The rest of your post is just sucking on your own dongle for joy and I have no time to entertain that. So if you are not convinced of the WVR then I suggest you agree to disagree and NOT post ANY further on this topic with the same parrot or you'll have to deal with me.

well oscar you are a good knlowledgable person im not but just a saught of fanboy but according to current topic Bison has an advantage in engine ,range , BVR , RWR and avioniicks while F7 has an advantage in manouverability and WVR combat "deu to twin delta format" but basicalli both are evenli matched but im still trying to figure owt that as to how in an real engagement (like couple of F7 take on couple of bisons in say real combat).......how bison will fair Vs F7s... thanks in advance

i dont need or want to troll but just curious

 

[haman10]

Iranian air guards :

 

[SQ8]

well oscar you are a good knlowledgable person im not but just a saught of fanboy but according to current topic Bison has an advantage in engine ,range , BVR , RWR and avioniicks while F7 has an advantage in manouverability and WVR combat "deu to twin delta format" but basicalli both are evenli matched but im still trying to figure owt that as to how in an real engagement (like couple of F7 take on couple of bisons in say real combat).......how bison will fair Vs F7s... thanks in advance

i dont need or want to troll but just curious

In a equal engagement.. each aircraft a distance apart and at the same altitude.. the Bisons will see the F-7s first and engage first with their R-77s. They will achieve first kills. The higher the number of fighters involved.. the less likely it will be that the F-7s will all be taken out. Once the distance closes.. the fighters both will engage with their WVR weapons and here the arena is equal.. If the F-7s survive that engagement with a bison taken out or otherwise..they will quickly gain the upper hand in the fight and bring the Bisons down.

In a real engagement, the Bisons will be flying in their embedded strike package escort role.. they will encounter various PAF interceptors of which the F-7s will have the role of flying very low to avoid detection and engagement as long as possible.. and then zooming into the strike package. In that scenario.. the F-7s will look to attack the strike formation whilst simultaneously baiting the Bisons away from protecting them. Such an engagement is fluid.. and quite difficult to predict. The Bisons advantage is its Tempest Self Protection Jammer(which your fellow countryman and information troll forgot to copy paste since he really has no idea what he is talking about).. which allows it to avoid radar interception(in combination with its lower RCS) till it can engage with its weapons. Modern fights are all slash and dash.. and very few turning engagements.. which means that both aircraft will look to shoot and run. those that do go into turning engagements.. the F-7 will kill the Bison.. because it also has a High off boresight missile.. and it has a better turning rate..which means its pilot can get into firing position faster than a Bison. But the chances of that happening are quite less.

In all honestly.. a real engagment depends on a lot more than just the aircraft.. but in a nutshell.. the Bison is going to be better in the BVR arena anyday.. but the F-7PG is the better knife fighter. If the question comes to the F-7MPs.. then the Bison will kill them more.


In a real engagement the Bisons will by flying as part of a strike formation .. and the F-7s will play their WVR force tactics.
In a real engagement the Bisons will by flying as part of a strike formation .. and the F-7s will play their WVR force tactics.

Anytime Anywhere Just call it M there

No you wont be. Not on PDF.

 

[syedali73]

Aerodynamics Vs Avionics We All Know Which will Be Winner Avionics Is Key to Future Bvrs is Future Of air Superiority.

Making use of punctuation will make it easier for readers to get what you are trying to say, wont it?

I wish if air combat was as simple as you are trying to put it. BVR has an edge, no doubt, but there is a reason why WVR AAMs are still being researched and produced. Forget about MiG21 (early or late generation), even 5th gen fighters are equipped with WVR AAMs. Would you agree with me that there would be some reason for this, otherwise why wasting resources on something which has become so irrelevant in current combat scenario? PAF is all too aware of its shortcoming when it comes to BVR combat, and she is living with this reality for almost 2 decades. However, it is not that PAF has not tried to find a solution for this problem; PAF continues to develop, and test tactics to counter BVR threat. Forcing the opponent to get into a WVR combat is not fantasy but an established air combat science.

Aerodynamics is also not as irrelevant as you are trying to imply. If your logic was valid, no country would be carrying out research on making fighters more and more maneuverable through improving their aerodynamic profiles. Every air force would have installed BVR kits (a long-range fire control radar + necessary electronics/software) on whatever the platforms and prepared for a BVR battle.

Well Is Pdf what can i say

OK, than post elsewhere. Why bother posting in a forum that is not up to your standards?

 

[halupridol]

@Manticore
i am going to ask a noob question....
why does f7 (n mig21 )have different nose compared to new fighters??

 

[kaykay]

Guys stop making it a F-7 vs Mig-21 thread.

 

[syedali73]

@Manticore
i am going to ask a noob question....
why does f7 (n mig21 )have different nose compared to new fighters??

No question is noob if the objective is to learn something. A simple answer will be that MiG21 is an older aircraft compared to the newer birds. MiG21 (or Su-7 etc) had a cone in the air intake to accommodate a fire control radar. It was (and still is) a simpler solution rather than redesigning the whole airframe with air intakes either on the sides or underneath the fuselage. The downside of this configuration is that the size of the cone limits the size of the radar antenna, which in most cases will be small, hence a radar with limited range.

 

[MilSpec]

Yes you are, there is no similiar aerodynamic performance when it comes to the standard winged(and also heavier) Mig-21 Bison when compared to the double delta F-7PG. Better turn rate.. better high alpha manoeuvrability.. and if basic loaded weights are taken... better T/W I believe.

I couldn't find any difference between the wing geometry of of F7 and the Mig 21, especially from manticore's post's looks like the same length, same surface area for both delta wings, some disambiguation will be highly appreciated.

From Wiki which suggest's J7MG specs, which I assume would be the same airframe as the F7PG, the length of the airframe and wingspan is larger suggesting higher weight, with lesser dry and after burning thrust than the Bison, suggesting, bison will try and stay at 17000 to 23000 ft where it excels and is very agile, assuming F7PG's has marginally better wing loading, it might want to stat slightly above the Bison. If it is chasing a bison couple of thousand feet below, it will have tough time to track it in wvr, if it is being chased by a bison which is flying below, it wouldn't want to stay above giving better sight picture to the bison driver.

With high angle of attack in wvr at supersonic speed, lift coefficient will bleed for both platforms, and at 21's dont do critical angle of attack maneuvers a low speeds due to it's stall speed limitations, in wvr combat, you will not see any seasoned pilots pitching their nose upwards.

I highly doubt the TWR case in both thrust and weight parameters, as climb rate for Bison is better than the F7PG on same. I think Bison has a better service ceiling than the J7MG whose export version is F7PG suggesting similar service ceiling. Thus higher dry & afterburning thrust, better service ceiling, higher range, more afterburner time all pointing towards better bypass pressure in the engine.

 

[Superboy]

Juts totell you "Not Trolling"
The Bison upgrade consists of Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radar and
RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs., new nosecone, new canopy, single-piece windshield and new canopy made of stressed acrylic
composites, Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS
receivers, El-Op HUD, infrared search and track system (IRST) from Russia's
URALs optical-mechanical plant, two Sextant MFD-55 LCD displays, autopilot,
radar warning receivers (RWR), digital flight data recorder, new liquid
air cooling system, HOTAS controls, stores management system, digital air
data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF
radios, twin conformal Vympel flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds) and a new
electric power supply system. Reportedly the new RWR to be fitted, is an
indigenous system developed by DRDO and goes by the name Tarang. A modified
version of this RWR will be used aboard the Su-30MKI.

That is not all, apart from carrying the deadly AA-11 "Archer" that arms the MiG-29 and longer range AA-10 Alamo BVR AAMs, Bison pilots will have the SURA helmet mounted sight, used by Flanker pilots. Now with this combination, it would mean that the MiG-21, flying faster than all F-16 variants would “schlemm” an F-16 as well as the Luftwaffe MiG-29s did
Secondly We Have Phythons And Derby To Counter your Aim SidWinders On tech Perspective your And Availibility Paf is far Behind than When You Start Competing It With Iaf

Yeah but, MiG-21 still obsolete. Everyone acknowledges this. All 186 F-7 are phased out by JF-17, the latter being extremely maneuverable due to relaxed stability design. Compare the following.

 

[kaykay]

Yeah but, MiG-21 still obsolete. Everyone acknowledges this. All 186 F-7 are phased out by JF-17, the latter being extremely maneuverable due to relaxed stability design. Compare the following.

150+ F-7s are still in service with Pakistan and unlikely to be replaced all till next 10 years. 150 JF-17s are simply not enough to replace all F-7s and old Mirages.

 

[Superboy]

150+ F-7s are still in service with Pakistan and unlikely to be replaced all till next 10 years. 150 JF-17s are simply not enough to replace all F-7s and old Mirages.

True, it would take 200 to 250 JF-17 to do the job.

 

[Banned Member]

True, it would take 200 to 250 JF-17 to do the job.

sorry for asking this noob question......
how many fighters currently PAF operates,what are they and of which standard????

 

[kaykay]

True, it would take 200 to 250 JF-17 to do the job.

Honestly speaking then one to one replacement of all J-7s and Mirage-3/5s are not possible as then 300+ JF-17s would be needed but anyway 250 figure seems to be more practical but it will take a good 12-15 years from now if not more.