MiG-21s & F-7s Specifications & Capabilities

[The_Sidewinder]

great aircraft. Have seen Its cousin Mig21s taking off from airbase a few years back, roar just beffens your ears.

 

[denel]

Good plane in a war fought in 1980.

Waste of human life and cost i n 2015 onwards.

Same for the one hindered fifty mirages you deploy . Great htorical plane. But completely out of place todsy

True but for many third world countries, it still can be repackaged like the jl-9 and its seams are still visible in jf-17. For the price/performance it is good deal still. To its credit, a design from the 50's and still around says a lot. While not front line anymore, it can fulfill a good role as a trainer or low cost fighter.

 

[Storm Force]

No it will be a sitting duck imfraid..

Lacking sensors radars and self protection itvwill be killed easily and Needlessly.

Re the bekaa valley air battle as to what happens to second and third gen fighters versis fourth gen air arm.

Slaughtered in large nos

 

[Armstrong]

True but for many third world countries, it still can be repackaged like the jl-9 and its seams are still visible in jf-17. For the price/performance it is good deal still. To its credit, a design from the 50's and still around says a lot. While not front line anymore, it can fulfill a good role as a trainer or low cost fighter.

Hello my South African brother !

So when is Pakistan and South Africa meeting for a cricket match again ?

I was rooting for South Africa after Pakistan washed out in the Quarter-Finals; great team....should've gone to the finals !

Now coming to the F-7 - Do you think in the near future if better miniaturized avionics could be conceived; the F-7 could be given a new lease of life ? Which is to say I've heard the phrase 'its a poor man's F-16' being used many times and if its true in terms of its maneuverability.....do you think if it can host a better avionics package it could become a potent option still ?

 

[syedali73]

Now coming to the F-7 - Do you think in the near future if better miniaturized avionics could be conceived; the F-7 could be given a new lease of life ? Which is to say I've heard the phrase 'its a poor man's F-16' being used many times and if its true in terms of its maneuverability.....do you think if it can host a better avionics package it could become a potent option still ?

For those who think F-7s in PAF inventory are still relevant... During 80s, besides newly inducted F-16s, PAF was flying Mirages, F-6s (MiG-19), and F-5s. All four platforms were armed with AIM-9/Magic AAMs and 'believed' to be 'relevant'. However, albeit of being 'relevant', it was always the F-16s that were sent to hunt down the intruding Afghan/Soviet aircrafts and not the other types. Even a lousy turboprop An-26 transport aircraft was downed using F-16. My question is, if the other types in PAF were still relevant, why the hell were those not sent to intercept the intruders? Now some will say we had freshly inducted F-16s and pilots wanted to hone their skills... true, but it is also true that first and foremost objective of the aerial engagements is not to take undue risks and inflict most damage while keeping yours at the minimum. PAF was wise to scramble F-16s and not the other types for albeit of armed with AIM-9Js/Magic, those were perhaps not a match against Soviet MiG-23s ans Su-22s. Now lets hypothesize a scenario where BVR -equipped MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s, and Su-30s intrude our airspace. What aircrafts will be scrambled for interception? F-7s?

Now as Niaz saheb has said, there is a limit to which an old airframe could be upgraded and pushed to its limits. First of all, F-7 has a small cone so a more powerful radar cant be installed. Secondly all avionics, radars, RWRs, ECMs, run on electricity that is produced by the power plant. These components cant be improved beyond a certain threshold (more powerful avionics have higher power requirements) for the F-7 engine may not be able to support all those goodies. Similarly, the hard points are limited to a maximum of 4 and F-7 is short-legged (perhaps maximum loiter time is 30 or so minutes) with no IFR installed for in-flight refueling. So given this scenario, how much a F-7PG can be upgraded? Would it be wise or cost-effective to install a new power plant that will form the basis of all other upgrades?

 

[Psychic]

For those who think F-7s in PAF inventory are still relevant... During 80s, besides newly inducted F-16s, PAF was flying Mirages, F-6s (MiG-19), and F-5s. All four platforms were armed with AIM-9/Magic AAMs and 'believed' to be 'relevant'. However, albeit of being 'relevant', it was always the F-16s that were sent to hunt down the intruding Afghan/Soviet aircrafts and not the other types. Even a lousy turboprop An-26 transport aircraft was downed using F-16. My question is, if the other types in PAF were still relevant, why the hell were those not sent to intercept the intruders? Now some will say we had freshly inducted F-16s and pilots wanted to hone their skills... true, but it is also true that first and foremost objective of the aerial engagements is not to take undue risks and inflict most damage while keeping yours at the minimum. PAF was wise to scramble F-16s and not the other types for albeit of armed with AIM-9Js/Magic, those were perhaps not a match against Soviet MiG-23s ans Su-22s. Now lets hypothesize a scenario where BVR -equipped MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s, and Su-30s intrude our airspace. What aircrafts will be scrambled for interception? F-7s?

Now as Niaz saheb has said, there is a limit to which an old airframe could be upgraded and pushed to its limits. First of all, F-7 has a small cone so a more powerful radar cant be installed. Secondly all avionics, radars, RWRs, ECMs, run on electricity that is produced by the power plant. These components cant be improved beyond a certain threshold (more powerful avionics have higher power requirements) for the F-7 engine may not be able to support all those goodies. Similarly, the hard points are limited to a maximum of 4 and F-7 is short-legged (perhaps maximum loiter time is 30 or so minutes) with no IFR installed for in-flight refueling. So given this scenario, how much a F-7PG can be upgraded? Would it be wise or cost-effective to install a new power plant that will form the basis of all other upgrades?

They are relevent because we cannot replace about 140 f7's and 180 mirages in one go.
Time is needed to replace them with JF 17's and F16's and until they are replaced, we will have to rely on them as they form the second layer of defence of Pakistan's airspace.
Let's wait instead of wasting resources like India. We will replace them slowly.

 

[Windjammer]

No it will be a sitting duck imfraid..

Lacking sensors radars and self protection itvwill be killed easily and Needlessly.

Re the bekaa valley air battle as to what happens to second and third gen fighters versis fourth gen air arm.

Slaughtered in large nos

That was Israelis against Syrians, here we are talking a possible India/Pakistan scenario. The rest is history.

 

[Storm Force]

No. Difference. Windjammer.

Pak pilots or Syrians or Americans you go to war with inferior hardware forty years old you lose

 

[SipahSalar]

it was always the F-16s that were sent to hunt down the intruding Afghan/Soviet aircrafts and not the other types.

That's not how Air Forces work. Even fighter planes are assigned different roles. The best aircraft are always used as front line air defence in all Air Forces. Why? Because if the enemy raid succeeds, the loss will be devastating. Most raids are conducted against airfields. Say you use F-7's as a front line defence, and it fails to stop the enemy in time, or it may stop them after the enemy has reached and unloaded its bombs on the target due to slow speed. What is the result? Loss of airplanes, air bases etc. So while trying to save your F-16's, you ended up losing a lot more. F-16's will use their fast speed to stop the enemy before they try to reach your airbase or other strategic buildings.

Now lets hypothesize a scenario where BVR -equipped MiG-21 Bisons, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s, and Su-30s intrude our airspace. What aircrafts will be scrambled for interception? F-7s?

Again, it is highly unlikely IAF will conduct a raid with Mig-29's or Bisons. Why? The best aircraft are used in strike roles as well. They will most probably use Su-30's for this role due to it's long range and fast speed. Mig-29's and Bisons will most probably be used in point defence roles. If Bison will be unable to penetrate Pakistan Airspace, why even bother with risking the aircraft? You need a fast plane that can go in and then come back as well.
So what is the role of these other aircraft since the best planes are being used for defence and strikes as well? Well they are mostly used in a defensive role in support of your best planes.

 

[syedali73]

That's not how Air Forces work. Even fighter planes are assigned different roles. The best aircraft are always used as front line air defence in all Air Forces. Why? Because if the enemy raid succeeds, the loss will be devastating. Most raids are conducted against airfields. Say you use F-7's as a front line defence, and it fails to stop the enemy in time, or it may stop them after the enemy has reached and unloaded its bombs on the target due to slow speed. What is the result? Loss of airplanes, air bases etc. So while trying to save your F-16's, you ended up losing a lot more. F-16's will use their fast speed to stop the enemy before they try to reach your airbase or other strategic buildings.


Again, it is highly unlikely IAF will conduct a raid with Mig-29's or Bisons. Why? The best aircraft are used in strike roles as well. They will most probably use Su-30's for this role due to it's long range and fast speed. Mig-29's and Bisons will most probably be used in point defence roles. If Bison will be unable to penetrate Pakistan Airspace, why even bother with risking the aircraft? You need a fast plane that can go in and then come back as well.
So what is the role of these other aircraft since the best planes are being used for defence and strikes as well? Well they are mostly used in a defensive role in support of your best planes.

I do not think I am saying something very different. Point is, with handful of your front line fighters neutralized what the hell 2nd or 3rd best aircrafts are going to achieve other than delaying a complete annihilation of your air force for a few more hours to days?

These 40+ years old relics called Mirages and 3rd gen F-7s armed with 2-4 WVR AAMs with 30 minutes loiter time may be a moral booster in numbers but in todays' complex air warfare they are not going to cut it.

 

[SipahSalar]

These 40+ years old relics called Mirages and 3rd gen F-7s armed with 2-4 WVR AAMs with 30 minutes loiter time may be a moral booster in numbers but in todays' complex air warfare they are not going to cut it.

I agree with you on the capability of F-7's. Just a few posts ago i commented on how I don't think they are very capable, they are just the sad result of the lost decade (90's)
PAF F-7 Skybolt Defending the Skies

I was only commenting on the concept of Aerial Warfare.

 

[denel]

Hello my South African brother !

So when is Pakistan and South Africa meeting for a cricket match again ?

I was rooting for South Africa after Pakistan washed out in the Quarter-Finals; great team....should've gone to the finals !

Now coming to the F-7 - Do you think in the near future if better miniaturized avionics could be conceived; the F-7 could be given a new lease of life ? Which is to say I've heard the phrase 'its a poor man's F-16' being used many times and if its true in terms of its maneuverability.....do you think if it can host a better avionics package it could become a potent option still ?

I dont know my friend. It is always great to see two teams wearing green meet ... In Semi's the pitches were i felt geared towards the home teams... no worries next time we will do it. not the end of the world .

F7 is pretty good . minuturising the elctronics can only go so far. F-7G or jl-9 repackaged is a different level. the original designs can still be redone with latest CAD/CAMS and substitution of lighter weight materials can even impose further benefits. The nose cone is where the challenge is ... they did overcome in jl-9 and also of course evolving to jf-17. i think they are definitely on the right course.

 

[TOPGUN]

F-7's will be replaced with thunders PAF is aware of its problems however, F-7PG is still going serve for few more years things take time specially given the fact you have to work with what you have could get and will have . I can say this that PAF has a good future for its purpose .

 

[Storm Force]

PAF has I believe over 150 F7 and further 150 Mirages from the same era.

That's like 70% of the entire PAF FLEET of 420 FIGHTERS

Additionally we have no idea how many of the mirages 150 planes have been cannibalised for spares because the mirage 5 series went out of production in the middle of the 1980s.

if PAF is hoping to replace F7 with thunders only my guess it will take another 5- 7 years

That then leaves the issue of replacing the mirages again I assume more F16s but can you reralistically get 100+ more F16 and would PAF want that many American planes with their rocky relationship

 

[CHI RULES]

I have read at some net sites the capabilities of F7BGI latest version of F7 series with capable chinese radar, with relatively cheaper price. Pakistan has option to retire F7s and get equivalent fighters from China for second line of deffence as well as improving existing F7PG stocks. Further we are all not professionals so comments of pro like Wind Jammer should be respected and not negated by mere layman.