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MH17 downed by Russian military missile system, say investigators

A.P. Richelieu

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ian-military-missile-system-say-investigators

International team says evidence shows missile came from a Russia-based unit
Shaun WalkerThu 24 May 2018 10.39 BST
A Russian military missile was responsible for shooting down flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, an international team of investigators said on Thursday, for the first time pointing the finger directly at Moscow.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014. All 298 people onboard were killed.

In 2016, investigators announced they had evidence that the BUK systeminvolved in the incident had crossed the border into eastern Ukraine from Russia and returned after the plane had been shot down.

At a press conference in The Hague on Thursday, the investigators showed photo and video evidence that they said proved they had identified the specific BUK missile system responsible.

They said they had “legal and convincing evidence which will stand up in a courtroom” that the BUK system involved came from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in Kursk, in western Russia.

Previously, the investigative website Bellingcat has pointed to involvement of the same brigade using open-source information.

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

Investigators identify Russian military missile that might have downed MH17 - video
Russian officials have denied all involvement in the incident, and on Thursday the defence ministry repeated these denials, claiming that no Russian missile had ever crossed into Ukraine. Kremlin-linked media outlets have floated a range of implausible theories suggesting Ukraine was responsible for shooting down the plane. Russia has used its veto in the UN to prevent an international tribunal from being set up to determine guilt, meaning any eventual trial would be held in the Netherlands under Dutch law.

Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor, said the investigation was in its last phase but could not say when he would be ready to file indictments. Two years ago, prosecutors said there were about 100 people under suspicion of direct or indirect involvement. On Thursday, Westerbeke said that number had come down to several dozen, but he declined to name them.

He said there was other evidence that would be kept secret until a court hearing began. “We don’t want to tell everything we know because then we are opening our cards to the other side and we do not want to do that.”

The big question will be how a future court will operate, given Russia is likely to continue its policy of stonewalling and denial. Investigators had asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but had been ignored, said Westerbeke. If specific Russian military personnel or commanders are indicted, Russia is almost certain to refuse their extradition.

Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop said the countries that make up the JIT were now “considering options” about how to proceed. “That a sophisticated weapon belonging to the Russian army was dispatched and used to shoot down a civilian aircraft should be of grave international concern,” she said.

The JIT stopped short of saying it believed the BUK system was deployed as part of a Russian military mission, saying only that they had identified the base from which it came. In a sign that some evidence is still missing, the JIT repeated a call for those with information about the incident to come forward, including information about the 53rd brigade, promising anonymity.

“The next crucially important step is to identify some members of the military in the 53rd brigade ... who can directly say who was involved in the transfer or operation of the BUK,” said Ukrainian army general Vasyl Hrytsak, a member of the investigation team, in comments to Reuters.

Bellingcat said it would hold a press conference on Friday to present new findings on MH17.

In the weeks before MH17 was shot down, the separatists had shot down a number of Ukrainian military planes over east Ukraine, and intercepted communications between separatist fighters made it clear that they initially believed they had hit another military plane, not a civilian liner.

Russia has repeatedly denied it was militarily active in eastern Ukraine, despite an overwhelming body of evidence to the contrary. In 2014, Russian troops and hardware were introduced at key moments to back pro-Russia separatists fighting against Ukrainian government troops.

After a series of Russian media claims of Ukrainian responsibility were all shown to be false, Moscow appears to have settled on the idea that it was “impossible to tell” which side was responsible.

This week a group of families of the MH17 victims wrote an open letter to the Russian people before the World Cup begins next month.

“We are painfully aware of the dark irony that the Russian leaders who will profess to welcome the world with open arms are those who are chiefly to blame for shattering our world,” the letter says. “And that it is these same leaders who have persistently sought to hide the truth, and who have evaded responsibility ever since that dreadful day in July 2014.”
 
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It was damn clear at day one.

Question is, is anybody going to do something about it, like cutting ties with Russia, or just another portion of deep concerns would be expressed?
 
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Talking about policy of stonewalling and denial...
 
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It was damn clear at day one.

Question is, is anybody going to do something about it, like cutting ties with Russia, or just another portion of deep concerns would be expressed?

Yes please Israel cut ties with Russia so they have more excuse to blow your planes out the sky.
 
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Okay can we discuss this being bias on neutral basis without any russo-phobia.

If Russia has evidence, it should be provided to the investigation.
So far they prefer to write story after story in their own propaganda channels.
As soon as one theory aka lie is proven wrong they invent a new one.
 
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I think it was downed by rebels but not by Russia army. The missile was built in 1986 as seen from the remains of the missile. Russia army had phased out missiles that old by 2014. Even if the missile came from Russia, rebels bought it on the black market from ex Russia army stock and smuggled it across the border.

It was damn clear at day one.

Question is, is anybody going to do something about it, like cutting ties with Russia, or just another portion of deep concerns would be expressed?

Accidents happen in war. Not to mention, commercial airlliners should never fly over an active war zone where planes get shot down on a daily basis without sending a beacon letting people know it is a commercial airliner.
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ian-military-missile-system-say-investigators

International team says evidence shows missile came from a Russia-based unit
Shaun WalkerThu 24 May 2018 10.39 BST
A Russian military missile was responsible for shooting down flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, an international team of investigators said on Thursday, for the first time pointing the finger directly at Moscow.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014. All 298 people onboard were killed.

In 2016, investigators announced they had evidence that the BUK systeminvolved in the incident had crossed the border into eastern Ukraine from Russia and returned after the plane had been shot down.

At a press conference in The Hague on Thursday, the investigators showed photo and video evidence that they said proved they had identified the specific BUK missile system responsible.

They said they had “legal and convincing evidence which will stand up in a courtroom” that the BUK system involved came from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in Kursk, in western Russia.

Previously, the investigative website Bellingcat has pointed to involvement of the same brigade using open-source information.

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

Investigators identify Russian military missile that might have downed MH17 - video
Russian officials have denied all involvement in the incident, and on Thursday the defence ministry repeated these denials, claiming that no Russian missile had ever crossed into Ukraine. Kremlin-linked media outlets have floated a range of implausible theories suggesting Ukraine was responsible for shooting down the plane. Russia has used its veto in the UN to prevent an international tribunal from being set up to determine guilt, meaning any eventual trial would be held in the Netherlands under Dutch law.

Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor, said the investigation was in its last phase but could not say when he would be ready to file indictments. Two years ago, prosecutors said there were about 100 people under suspicion of direct or indirect involvement. On Thursday, Westerbeke said that number had come down to several dozen, but he declined to name them.

He said there was other evidence that would be kept secret until a court hearing began. “We don’t want to tell everything we know because then we are opening our cards to the other side and we do not want to do that.”

The big question will be how a future court will operate, given Russia is likely to continue its policy of stonewalling and denial. Investigators had asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but had been ignored, said Westerbeke. If specific Russian military personnel or commanders are indicted, Russia is almost certain to refuse their extradition.

Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop said the countries that make up the JIT were now “considering options” about how to proceed. “That a sophisticated weapon belonging to the Russian army was dispatched and used to shoot down a civilian aircraft should be of grave international concern,” she said.

The JIT stopped short of saying it believed the BUK system was deployed as part of a Russian military mission, saying only that they had identified the base from which it came. In a sign that some evidence is still missing, the JIT repeated a call for those with information about the incident to come forward, including information about the 53rd brigade, promising anonymity.

“The next crucially important step is to identify some members of the military in the 53rd brigade ... who can directly say who was involved in the transfer or operation of the BUK,” said Ukrainian army general Vasyl Hrytsak, a member of the investigation team, in comments to Reuters.

Bellingcat said it would hold a press conference on Friday to present new findings on MH17.

In the weeks before MH17 was shot down, the separatists had shot down a number of Ukrainian military planes over east Ukraine, and intercepted communications between separatist fighters made it clear that they initially believed they had hit another military plane, not a civilian liner.

Russia has repeatedly denied it was militarily active in eastern Ukraine, despite an overwhelming body of evidence to the contrary. In 2014, Russian troops and hardware were introduced at key moments to back pro-Russia separatists fighting against Ukrainian government troops.

After a series of Russian media claims of Ukrainian responsibility were all shown to be false, Moscow appears to have settled on the idea that it was “impossible to tell” which side was responsible.

This week a group of families of the MH17 victims wrote an open letter to the Russian people before the World Cup begins next month.

“We are painfully aware of the dark irony that the Russian leaders who will profess to welcome the world with open arms are those who are chiefly to blame for shattering our world,” the letter says. “And that it is these same leaders who have persistently sought to hide the truth, and who have evaded responsibility ever since that dreadful day in July 2014.”

Sanctions on Russia have been vindicated.
 
. .
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ian-military-missile-system-say-investigators

International team says evidence shows missile came from a Russia-based unit
Shaun WalkerThu 24 May 2018 10.39 BST
A Russian military missile was responsible for shooting down flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in 2014, an international team of investigators said on Thursday, for the first time pointing the finger directly at Moscow.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it was shot down over the conflict zone in eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014. All 298 people onboard were killed.

In 2016, investigators announced they had evidence that the BUK systeminvolved in the incident had crossed the border into eastern Ukraine from Russia and returned after the plane had been shot down.

At a press conference in The Hague on Thursday, the investigators showed photo and video evidence that they said proved they had identified the specific BUK missile system responsible.

They said they had “legal and convincing evidence which will stand up in a courtroom” that the BUK system involved came from the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade based in Kursk, in western Russia.

Previously, the investigative website Bellingcat has pointed to involvement of the same brigade using open-source information.

The joint investigation team (JIT) looking into the incident is made up of Dutch prosecutors and police and others from Australia, Malaysia and Ukraine. They showed photos and video of the convoy that carried the missile system over the border from Russia to Ukraine, and a series of distinctive markings and serial numbers which they said had enabled them to trace the exact system used in the attack, and trace it to the 53rd brigade.

Investigators identify Russian military missile that might have downed MH17 - video
Russian officials have denied all involvement in the incident, and on Thursday the defence ministry repeated these denials, claiming that no Russian missile had ever crossed into Ukraine. Kremlin-linked media outlets have floated a range of implausible theories suggesting Ukraine was responsible for shooting down the plane. Russia has used its veto in the UN to prevent an international tribunal from being set up to determine guilt, meaning any eventual trial would be held in the Netherlands under Dutch law.

Fred Westerbeke, the chief prosecutor, said the investigation was in its last phase but could not say when he would be ready to file indictments. Two years ago, prosecutors said there were about 100 people under suspicion of direct or indirect involvement. On Thursday, Westerbeke said that number had come down to several dozen, but he declined to name them.

He said there was other evidence that would be kept secret until a court hearing began. “We don’t want to tell everything we know because then we are opening our cards to the other side and we do not want to do that.”

The big question will be how a future court will operate, given Russia is likely to continue its policy of stonewalling and denial. Investigators had asked Russian authorities for information about the 53rd brigade but had been ignored, said Westerbeke. If specific Russian military personnel or commanders are indicted, Russia is almost certain to refuse their extradition.

Australian foreign minister Julie Bishop said the countries that make up the JIT were now “considering options” about how to proceed. “That a sophisticated weapon belonging to the Russian army was dispatched and used to shoot down a civilian aircraft should be of grave international concern,” she said.

The JIT stopped short of saying it believed the BUK system was deployed as part of a Russian military mission, saying only that they had identified the base from which it came. In a sign that some evidence is still missing, the JIT repeated a call for those with information about the incident to come forward, including information about the 53rd brigade, promising anonymity.

“The next crucially important step is to identify some members of the military in the 53rd brigade ... who can directly say who was involved in the transfer or operation of the BUK,” said Ukrainian army general Vasyl Hrytsak, a member of the investigation team, in comments to Reuters.

Bellingcat said it would hold a press conference on Friday to present new findings on MH17.

In the weeks before MH17 was shot down, the separatists had shot down a number of Ukrainian military planes over east Ukraine, and intercepted communications between separatist fighters made it clear that they initially believed they had hit another military plane, not a civilian liner.

Russia has repeatedly denied it was militarily active in eastern Ukraine, despite an overwhelming body of evidence to the contrary. In 2014, Russian troops and hardware were introduced at key moments to back pro-Russia separatists fighting against Ukrainian government troops.

After a series of Russian media claims of Ukrainian responsibility were all shown to be false, Moscow appears to have settled on the idea that it was “impossible to tell” which side was responsible.

This week a group of families of the MH17 victims wrote an open letter to the Russian people before the World Cup begins next month.

“We are painfully aware of the dark irony that the Russian leaders who will profess to welcome the world with open arms are those who are chiefly to blame for shattering our world,” the letter says. “And that it is these same leaders who have persistently sought to hide the truth, and who have evaded responsibility ever since that dreadful day in July 2014.”

The missile hit the cockpit (Port side of the cockpit, which is the captain side) suggest the missile is a Radar Guided, Proximity-fused missile instead of a Heat Seeking missile. And the missile is fired from an interception trajectory instead of a chasing trajectory.

The travel direction of MH17 (from Netherland to Malaysia) would have taken the aircraft a East heading over Ukraine.

A simple ballistic trajectory calculation would suggest the missile is fired from East to West to have hit the Cockpit of the aircraft due to the properties of Proximity-Fuse, which explode when it first make contact. And if the missile is fired from West, the missile would have a tail strike instead of cockpit strike because it was chasing instead of intercepting MH17.

And due East of the collision point is either Ukrainian Rebel controlled area or Russia itself.
 
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Hey look on the bright side, at least the Russian missiles shot something down. Yeah okay it was slow moving unmaneuverable helicopter but hey, atleast its something...:p:
 
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And due East of the collision point is either Ukrainian Rebel controlled area or Russia itself.
That's Russia. Simple geometry doesn't work there.

Hey look on the bright side, at least the Russian missiles shot something down. Yeah okay it was slow moving unmaneuverable helicopter but hey, atleast its something...:p:
It was a Boeing 777 with almost 300 people, not a Mi-17 helicopter you might have thought about.
 
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Hey look on the bright side, at least the Russian missiles shot something down. Yeah okay it was slow moving unmaneuverable helicopter but hey, atleast its something...:p:

You know that is a civilian airliner flying a flag of a third party nation. It's not a helicopter.....

That's Russia. Simple geometry doesn't work there.

If you look at their statement, it just didn't make sense at all.

The aircraft is ALMOST crossed into Russia Air Traffic Control zone, which mean if any Ukrainian missile have to strike the aircraft, it will come with a West to East direction, and that would hit the aircraft in the tail or fuselage instead of its cockpit.

The only way Ukrainian could have done this is to tow/drive a BUK launcher to either inside rebel held zone or within Russia to shoot it down. Which simply does not make sense.
 
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