Meet the US's answer to China's 'carrier killer' missile

[jhungary]

That is the same question of how do you know the target is right to begin with, for a ballistic missile. You dont just simply shoot right?

look, I don't want to explain to you how ISTAR work here, it's 2:42 am. I am really tired.

I am not saying what you said is not true, but they are just one tiny part of ISTAR chain. You still need to provide a full solution on your target to actually complete the chain.

In brief, ISTAR is a combination of real time intelligence comingle with target acquisition, tracking and verification process. And in short, The only way to achieve a "guided" attack today is via beam riding, there are no other way it can provide a full solution on ISTAR package.

Satellite can detect a target, but it would not be in real time, it can track a target, but it cannot do so in real time, and without these two major piece of puzzle, you cannot provide a full "guidance" package to your missile.

I have worked with Special Force and provide Target Package strike before, I have used satellite to do those thing, you will not believe how many hours I sit in front of a monitor sorting out image to see if that is a HVT or just a goat. Satellite help you to identify a target, it will not put the ID into target solution itself, no computer can currently perform this function, and that you will need human interaction.

if you want to keep talking about it, I will write an article and detail how ISTAR work and we can discuss it later.

 

[antonius123]

look, I don't want to explain to you how ISTAR work here, it's 2:42 am. I am really tired.

I am not saying what you said is not true, but they are just one tiny part of ISTAR chain. You still need to provide a full solution on your target to actually complete the chain.

In brief, ISTAR is a combination of real time intelligence comingle with target acquisition, tracking and verification process. And in short, The only way to achieve a "guided" attack today is via beam riding, there are no other way it can provide a full solution on ISTAR package.

Satellite can detect a target, but it would not be in real time, it can track a target, but it cannot do so in real time, and without these two major piece of puzzle, you cannot provide a full "guidance" package to your missile.

I have worked with Special Force and provide Target Package strike before, I have used satellite to do those thing, you will not believe how many hours I sit in front of a monitor sorting out image to see if that is a HVT or just a goat. Satellite help you to identify a target, it will not put the ID into target solution itself, no computer can currently perform this function, and that you will need human interaction.

if you want to keep talking about it, I will write an article and detail how ISTAR work and we can discuss it later.

In other word, you are asking radar technical question to wrong person.
I just can bring you the brief evidence on how SAR could help ASBM to hit the moving target with citation, but technical explanation on how SAR work is not my forte. If you are the radar expert, it should be you explaining me what the article explain on how SAR work in guiding the missile.

Yes, that's a standard protocol for someone launching a ballistic missile over a US target.

That is too dangerous protocol.
Nuclear war could happen simply by accident if US follow this kind of protocol.

 

[jhungary]

In other word, you are asking radar technical question to wrong person.
I just can bring you the brief evidence on how SAR could help ASBM to hit the moving target with citation, but technical explanation on how SAR work is not my forte. If you are the radar expert, it should be you explaining me what the article explain on how SAR work in guiding the missile.

Again, I am not saying this is not how it work, but this is not the full part on how ISTAR perform. You cannot just use satellite input for it, radar capture signature of an object, which mean almost all radar and satellite cannot provide with a visual Identification of an object.

I am not an expert on Radar, I am an expert on ISTAR, again, it's late so I don't plan to write a 2 page essay on how ISTAR work for you now.

That is too dangerous protocol.
Nuclear war could happen simply by accident if US follow this kind of protocol.

This is how MAD works. It's up to the other party whether or not they want to launch this on our carrier or base, if they planned to launch them, then they need to prepare for the consequence.

If we are not going by the doctrine, then why and what deterrence can MAD get out of?

 

[gambit]

In other word, you are asking radar technical question to wrong person.

We already know you are clueless on most things here.

...technical explanation on how SAR work is not my forte.

But laser is ? We are still waiting on your explanation on why laser cannot work on targets moving faster than Mach 2. Appropriate citation to physical laws would be appreciated.

If you are the radar expert, it should be you explaining me what the article explain on how SAR work in guiding the missile.

Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) was created out of the need for a large array antenna where construction of said large array antenna is not possible. The analogy is that of a normal photographic camera.

Let us use the popular 35 mm camera lens.

- Take one picture.
- Move one step.
- Take one picture.
- Move one step.

35 x 2 = 70 mm

The 70 mm is made up. It is the sum of moving two steps. In other words, the 70 mm aperture is a 'synthetic' camera lens. Synthetic or virtual or conceptual or mathematical. Which ever word you want to use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_aperture_radar

As the SAR device on board the aircraft or spacecraft moves,...

The synchronization of aircraft movement (stepping) and transmission of the radar beam (take picture) must be precise.

Just like the photographic camera example, the final radar view is the sum, or composite, of each time the radar beam transmit as the aircraft move from one spot to another.

SAR are best for creating high resolution radar images of STATIONARY targets. But we are talking about a moving target -- a ship.

In order to provide the ship's 2D surface translation, the radar beam would have to return to position 1 and start scanning all over again, creating a second image of the area, compares it against the first image, then transmit the difference to the missile.

This is not taking into consideration atmospheric interference such as cloud cover. Plus, the satellite is moving in one direction and it cannot back up or even slow down.

That is too dangerous protocol.
Nuclear war could happen simply by accident if US follow this kind of protocol.

So what you are saying is that China can launch a real nuclear ICBM, tell US that it is non-nuclear, and we are expected to believe China, thereby suffering a first nuclear strike. If we do that, then we deserves to be called 'stupid'.

Sorry, pal. But no matter how much money on kneepads you spent for China, no one is going to buy your argument.

 

[gambit]

This is how delusional are the PDF Chinese and their supporters of how difficult it is to target a moving ship.

This...

...Is how a radar sees a target. As a cluster of voltage spikes.

For the left side of the above illustration, how are you able to tell which is a ship of war and which is not ? If you are a jungle tribesman who have never seen a ship before, the aircraft carrier and the oil tanker are essentially the same. If anything, even if you are a modern man you can still confuse the two if the lighting and the environment are just right.

A flat reflector, such as a sidewall or a top deck would reflect the most, hence the largest spike. For the oil tanker and the aircraft carrier, the electrical spikes for topside structures would be buried among the larger signals. So with the current technology how is the radar in orbit looking down at a ship, be able to tell if the a target is an oil tanker or an aircraft carrier ?

Yeah...Chinese satellites with Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) will be able to REAL TIME direct a DF-21D ballistic missile to a US aircraft carrier.

 

[gambit]

...I don't plan to write a 2 page essay on how ISTAR work for you now.

He would not understand it by the intro paragraph, so do not bother.

 

[antonius123]

Again, I am not saying this is not how it work, but this is not the full part on how ISTAR perform. You cannot just use satellite input for it, radar capture signature of an object, which mean almost all radar and satellite cannot provide with a visual Identification of an object.

I am not an expert on Radar, I am an expert on ISTAR, again, it's late so I don't plan to write a 2 page essay on how ISTAR work for you now.

No problem. Then why dont you just accept that the ASBM can track the target with help of SAR based on the citation given, regardless you understand technically or not.

This is how MAD works. It's up to the other party whether or not they want to launch this on our carrier or base, if they planned to launch them, then they need to prepare for the consequence.

If we are not going by the doctrine, then why and what deterrence can MAD get out of?

US is not that crazy to apply that reckless and blind MAD as you think. MAD is about mutual destruction for both countries. If 1 or 2 missile headed to GUAM, why should USA take risk for herself destruction?

Beside MAD is not the sole doctrine conduct by USA.

 

[jhungary]

No problem. Then why dont you just accept that the ASBM can track the target with help of SAR based on the citation given, regardless you understand technically or not.

Because I know for a fact that it can't.

Under the current technology, the only way a target can be track in real time is by human interaction.

As I said, you are just talking about target detection, but that is just one part of the whole ISTAR chain and if one part of this ISTAR chain fail, you failed to track the target in real time, hence you cannot guild your missile on target via a satellite with or without SAR Radar.

SAR radar HELPS you to put your target on your map, you need a pair of eyes and a brain to track it.

@gambit already explain what SAR radar can do.

US is not that crazy to apply that reckless and blind MAD as you think. MAD is about mutual destruction for both countries. If 1 or 2 missile headed to GUAM, why should USA take risk for herself destruction?

Beside MAD is not the sole doctrine conduct by USA.

Again, how do you know if China is launching a nuclear tipped IRBM or an conventional tipped ASBM? You cannot. Hence every shot over the horizon will be treated as Nuclear Warhead, you fire one of these, you may as well fire a nuclear missile, it is not "Will" US do it, they WILL for sure. The question is, would China fire one of these and bet US will not response in full?

 

[Surya 1]

What career killer missile without even a single successful test. The problem with chinese is that their wepon becomes XYZ killer from conceptualization stage. Can anybody post me a single link of successful test of this so called DF 21 career killer missile?

 

[antonius123]

We already know you are clueless on most things here.

You are the clueless one here.

But laser is ? We are still waiting on your explanation on why laser cannot work on targets moving faster than Mach 2. Appropriate citation to physical laws would be appreciated.

Look, it is only you who raise up this silly question. It prove you have problem with your intelligence to understand what people say.

Explain why you think that laser weapon now is capable to destroy ASBM with speed mach 10 or even mach 30, while none in US military ever claimed it could destroy ICBM/ASBM or even cruise missile. I am interested to hear.

Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) was created out of the need for a large array antenna where construction of said large array antenna is not possible. The analogy is that of a normal photographic camera.

Let us use the popular 35 mm camera lens.

- Take one picture.
- Move one step.
- Take one picture.
- Move one step.

35 x 2 = 70 mm

The 70 mm is made up. It is the sum of moving two steps. In other words, the 70 mm aperture is a 'synthetic' camera lens. Synthetic or virtual or conceptual or mathematical. Which ever word you want to use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_aperture_radar

The synchronization of aircraft movement (stepping) and transmission of the radar beam (take picture) must be precise.

Just like the photographic camera example, the final radar view is the sum, or composite, of each time the radar beam transmit as the aircraft move from one spot to another.

SAR are best for creating high resolution radar images of STATIONARY targets. But we are talking about a moving target -- a ship.

In order to provide the ship's 2D surface translation, the radar beam would have to return to position 1 and start scanning all over again, creating a second image of the area, compares it against the first image, then transmit the difference to the missile.

This is not taking into consideration atmospheric interference such as cloud cover. Plus, the satellite is moving in one direction and it cannot back up or even slow down.

OK now you are acting like radar expert? what else is your background other than Aviation, Radar Expert, Semicondutor expert?

I give 3 citations to debunk your claim that SAR is for detecting/tracking stationary terget below.

http://www.radarsummerschool.fraunh...targetrecognition&catid=36:lectures&Itemid=66
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4977055/
http://asp.eurasipjournals.springeropen.com/articles/10.1155/2010/740130

 

[Place Of Space]

What career killer missile without even a single successful test. The problem with chinese is that their wepon becomes XYZ killer from conceptualization stage. Can anybody post me a single link of successful test of this so called DF 21 career killer missile?

wot is XYZ killer, dude?

 

[antonius123]

So what you are saying is that China can launch a real nuclear ICBM, tell US that it is non-nuclear, and we are expected to believe China, thereby suffering a first nuclear strike. If we do that, then we deserves to be called 'stupid'.

Sorry, pal. But no matter how much money on kneepads you spent for China, no one is going to buy your argument.

Another stupid question from you.
Read again my explanation to jhungary above.

 

[Surya 1]

wot is XYZ killer, dude?

XYZ may be F22, F35, US Aircraft career eyc. e.g J 20 is F22 killer, DF 21 is us aircraft career killer.

 

[antonius123]

This is how delusional are the PDF Chinese and their supporters of how difficult it is to target a moving ship.

This...

...Is how a radar sees a target. As a cluster of voltage spikes.

For the left side of the above illustration, how are you able to tell which is a ship of war and which is not ? If you are a jungle tribesman who have never seen a ship before, the aircraft carrier and the oil tanker are essentially the same. If anything, even if you are a modern man you can still confuse the two if the lighting and the environment are just right.

A flat reflector, such as a sidewall or a top deck would reflect the most, hence the largest spike. For the oil tanker and the aircraft carrier, the electrical spikes for topside structures would be buried among the larger signals. So with the current technology how is the radar in orbit looking down at a ship, be able to tell if the a target is an oil tanker or an aircraft carrier ?

Yeah...Chinese satellites with Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) will be able to REAL TIME direct a DF-21D ballistic missile to a US aircraft carrier.

Hello .. read this carefully and try to understand these citation:

SAR images have wide applications in remote sensing and mapping of the surfaces of both the Earth and other planets. SAR can also be implemented as inverse SAR by observing a moving target over a substantial time with a stationary antenna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_aperture_radar

Also this:

With the recent launches of the German TerraSAR-X and the Canadian RADARSAT-2, both equipped with phased array antennas and multiple receiver channels, synthetic aperture radar, ground moving target indication (SAR-GMTI) data are now routinely being acquired from space.
http://asp.eurasipjournals.springeropen.com/articles/10.1155/2010/740130


Other citation:
http://www.radarsummerschool.fraunh...targetrecognition&catid=36:lectures&Itemid=66


Like always your myth is consistently debunked many many times, again and again:
Stop being fraud please .. dont pretend as a pdf professor

Because I know for a fact that it can't.

Under the current technology, the only way a target can be track in real time is by human interaction.

As I said, you are just talking about target detection, but that is just one part of the whole ISTAR chain and if one part of this ISTAR chain fail, you failed to track the target in real time, hence you cannot guild your missile on target via a satellite with or without SAR Radar.

SAR radar HELPS you to put your target on your map, you need a pair of eyes and a brain to track it.

@gambit already explain what SAR radar can do.

Like i said, i am not radar expert. But my citations has proven that your understanding about SAR's inability to track moving target is obviously wrong.

Again, how do you know if China is launching a nuclear tipped IRBM or an conventional tipped ASBM? You cannot. Hence every shot over the horizon will be treated as Nuclear Warhead, you fire one of these, you may as well fire a nuclear missile, it is not "Will" US do it, they WILL for sure. The question is, would China fire one of these and bet US will not response in full?

Until we can identify where the missile is heading to and what kind of warhead it is carrying. If it hit guam with nuclear, then USA most probably retaliate with nuclear attack to china according to MAD doctrine. However if it hit Guam with conventional explosion, then why USA should risk self own destruction?

 

[Place Of Space]

XYZ may be F22, F35, US Aircraft career eyc. e.g J 20 is F22 killer, DF 21 is us aircraft career killer.

You answer me wot is XYZ, not my question, dude.