MEDIA OUTLET REPORTS POSSIBLE AIR DEFENCE DEAL BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND THALES

[Erl]

Thales GROUND Master air surveillance radar. Photo credit: Thales
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Dec 6, 2016Bilal Khan -
MEDIA OUTLET REPORTS POSSIBLE AIR DEFENCE DEAL BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND THALES
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Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live has reported that the French electronics giant Thales is in talks to sell an air defence system to Pakistan.

Citing an unnamed source, Mishra writes, “an ‘in-principle’ deal was … approved between the Pakistan government and Thales to provide air defence system to Pakistan, which will be designed keeping the ‘India threat’ in mind.”

Notes & Comments:

The prospect of Pakistan dealing with Thales is plausible considering that Thales still considers Pakistan an attainable market for its solutions, hence its participation at the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi in November. As per IHS Jane’s, Pakistan could spend $12 billion U.S. over the next eight years on arms procurement; although small in comparison to India, the outlay can still be a lucrative revenue pool for some vendors, including the likes of Thales and MBDA.

Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified, it should be noted that Pakistan’s agreements to negotiate – i.e. ‘letters-of-understanding’ (LoUs) – have generally been, at least during IDEAS, opaque and low-key.

For example, the LoU between Pakistan Ordnance Factories and Česká Zbrojovka does not detail the exact specifics of what POF is negotiating for in terms of small arms. Likewise, the attention surrounding that LoU has been quiet in comparison to the final agreements, i.e. memoranda-of-understanding (MoU), signed by Heavy Industries Taxila and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex with Ukraine and France, respectively.

In other words, Mishra’s report is certainly plausible considering the circumstances. In terms of the nature of what Pakistan could be pursuing from Thales, that is not known.

The “India threat” element indicates that the solution would be channeled to strengthen Pakistan’s capacity for addressing external conventional threats.

Thales’ air defence product catalogue comprises of the following:

• GROUND Master-200 and Master-400 air surveillance radars;
• RAPID very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) systems;
• SKYVIEW C4I system;
• SHIELD air defence system, can be integrated with various third-party solutions;
• STAR SHORAD and VSHORAD system;
• CONTROL air defence management system.

Pakistan’s air defence requirements could land any one – or multiple – of those areas, hence it is difficult to determine the probable scope of its dealings with Thales. It will be worth observing exactly which one of Pakistan’s service arms is negotiating with Thales. For example, in the case of the Pakistan Army, then the focus could be on SHORAD and VSHORAD solutions, particularly mobile systems to defend armoured formations or forward bases, respectively. If it is the Pakistan Air Force, the scope could be focused on finding a successor to the Siemens MPDR. If Thales is dealing with the Pakistan Navy, then the focus could be on sensor and command and control systems for use on an existing or future surface warship. An air defence solution beyond SHORAD would necessitate a munitions vendor such as MBDA.

Post-Note:

With the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) searching for a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system for the JF-17 Thunder, the prospect of the Thales TopOwl-F being a choice is plausible. Currently, China does not have a marketable HMD/S product (though a system for the FC-31 is under development). There are scarcely few other options available on the market at this time other than the Thales TopOwl-F and, less plausibly, the BAE Striker II. An open channel with Thales could be a factor in this respect.

Guys this is an old news belonging to 6 December of 2016.
Was there a progress in that deal? Or were there other sources considered to purchase air defense systems for Pakistan's armed forces?

@Spring Onion @maximuswarrior @Horus @Zarvan @Windjammer @BHarwana and other Pakistani bros.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Which ADS?

 

[Erl]

Which ADS?

Don't know bro, just found it on the net. I got curious about that. Pak needs an AD undoubtedly.

Which ADS?

Moreover, it is a French company if i'm not wrong.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Don't know bro, just found it on the net. I got curious about that. Pak needs an AD undoubtedly.


Moreover, it is a French company if i'm not wrong.

Land or sea based?

 

[Erl]

Land or sea based?

My weak knowledge tells me it must be a ground based system :::

 

[The Eagle]

Thales GROUND Master air surveillance radar. Photo credit: Thales
Daily News
Dec 6, 2016Bilal Khan -
MEDIA OUTLET REPORTS POSSIBLE AIR DEFENCE DEAL BETWEEN PAKISTAN AND THALES
ShareTweet


Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live has reported that the French electronics giant Thales is in talks to sell an air defence system to Pakistan.

Citing an unnamed source, Mishra writes, “an ‘in-principle’ deal was … approved between the Pakistan government and Thales to provide air defence system to Pakistan, which will be designed keeping the ‘India threat’ in mind.”

Notes & Comments:

The prospect of Pakistan dealing with Thales is plausible considering that Thales still considers Pakistan an attainable market for its solutions, hence its participation at the 2016 International Defence Exhibition and Seminar (IDEAS) in Karachi in November. As per IHS Jane’s, Pakistan could spend $12 billion U.S. over the next eight years on arms procurement; although small in comparison to India, the outlay can still be a lucrative revenue pool for some vendors, including the likes of Thales and MBDA.

Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified, it should be noted that Pakistan’s agreements to negotiate – i.e. ‘letters-of-understanding’ (LoUs) – have generally been, at least during IDEAS, opaque and low-key.

For example, the LoU between Pakistan Ordnance Factories and Česká Zbrojovka does not detail the exact specifics of what POF is negotiating for in terms of small arms. Likewise, the attention surrounding that LoU has been quiet in comparison to the final agreements, i.e. memoranda-of-understanding (MoU), signed by Heavy Industries Taxila and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex with Ukraine and France, respectively.

In other words, Mishra’s report is certainly plausible considering the circumstances. In terms of the nature of what Pakistan could be pursuing from Thales, that is not known.

The “India threat” element indicates that the solution would be channeled to strengthen Pakistan’s capacity for addressing external conventional threats.

Thales’ air defence product catalogue comprises of the following:

• GROUND Master-200 and Master-400 air surveillance radars;
• RAPID very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) systems;
• SKYVIEW C4I system;
• SHIELD air defence system, can be integrated with various third-party solutions;
• STAR SHORAD and VSHORAD system;
• CONTROL air defence management system.

Pakistan’s air defence requirements could land any one – or multiple – of those areas, hence it is difficult to determine the probable scope of its dealings with Thales. It will be worth observing exactly which one of Pakistan’s service arms is negotiating with Thales. For example, in the case of the Pakistan Army, then the focus could be on SHORAD and VSHORAD solutions, particularly mobile systems to defend armoured formations or forward bases, respectively. If it is the Pakistan Air Force, the scope could be focused on finding a successor to the Siemens MPDR. If Thales is dealing with the Pakistan Navy, then the focus could be on sensor and command and control systems for use on an existing or future surface warship. An air defence solution beyond SHORAD would necessitate a munitions vendor such as MBDA.

Post-Note:

With the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) searching for a helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system for the JF-17 Thunder, the prospect of the Thales TopOwl-F being a choice is plausible. Currently, China does not have a marketable HMD/S product (though a system for the FC-31 is under development). There are scarcely few other options available on the market at this time other than the Thales TopOwl-F and, less plausibly, the BAE Striker II. An open channel with Thales could be a factor in this respect.

Guys this is an old news belonging to 6 December of 2016.
Was there a progress in that deal? Or were there other sources considered to purchase air defense systems for Pakistan's armed forces?

@Spring Onion @maximuswarrior @Horus @Zarvan @Windjammer @BHarwana and other Pakistani bros.

No such further progress or would say available to public yet however, only MoU(s) and LoU(s) signed during Ideas -2016. The author may be hinting towards those Us signed and tried to come up with possibility but the source claim is unverified. If there would be any contact of such level that may include procurement of equipment in this class, IMO, it would be with Thales-AD and TopOwl-F (HMDs) at the same time as we wouldn't go for singular solutions and would acquire more through one vendor by these contracts.


Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live (an indian source)
Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, form the same source, interestingly following article sequenced the matter through their own observations... In the same article, Indian Officials actually indirectly yet on low level, blamed these companies that are in contract or want to sign a deal with Pakistan. India itself suspected the few top most suppliers through such reservations. Now coming from another point of view w.r.t. Pakistan dealings with these companies and all those Indian claims saying that A, B or C company wouldn't deal with Pakistan anymore due to Indian influence or economy, actually debunked openly.


Foreign firms trying to Make in India also eyeing arms sales to Pakistan
By ABHINANDAN MISHRA | NEW DELHI | 3 December, 2016

Agencies are worried of legal and illegal transfers of technology by these companies from India to Pakistan.


Indian security agencies have raised concerns over certain international defence companies who are pushing for increased arms sales to Pakistan on the one hand but trying to increase their presence in the Indian arms market on the other, to become a part of the Centre’s flagship “Make in India” campaign.

These companies, according to sources, include the France-based Thales defence, Italy-based Leonardo-Finmeccanica, France based MBDA and Beretta of Italy, which took part in the recently held International defence exhibition in Karachi from 22 to 25 November. The who’s who of Pakistan decision makers, including diplomats and officials from the defence ministry, attended the exhibition and met the representatives of these private companies.

The exhibition was organised by the Defence Export Promotion Organization (DEPO), which has been established by the Government of Pakistan as a facilitation agency for all customer inquiries and to coordinate the export of high quality defence products and services.

Sources said that Thales, which is one of the major contributors to India’s demand for arms and related technologies, showcased its equipment related to air defence systems, naval ships and submarines and naval equipment.

Sources also stated that an “in-principle” deal was also approved between the Pakistan government and Thales to provide air defence system to Pakistan, which will be designed keeping the “India threat” in mind. Interestingly, Thales had entered into a joint venture with Navratna defence public sector undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) to form BEL-THALES Systems Limited, in 2014 to focus on the design, development, marketing, supply and support of civilian and select defence radars for India and the global markets.

BEL holds a 74% stake, while Thales holds 26% of the equity in the JV company.

Similarly, the Italy-based Leonardo-Finmeccanica, which is experiencing a “partial-ban” from the Indian government for its involvement in the VVIP helicopter scam that took place during the UPA government, too, showcased its air defence systems, anti-tank, wall breaching weapon systems, guns and ammunition for armoured vehicles, main battle tanks, armoured vehicles, drones, communication equipments and equipment for detection, information-gathering and identification.

The France-based European missile manufacturer MBDA, which is working with the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and public sector firm Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) to co-develop and manufacture a short-range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) for the Indian Navy through extensive technology transfer, took part in the Karachi exhibition and exhibited the air defence systems to Pakistani officials, which, according to sources, was “highly appreciated by the Pakistani officials”.

The Italy-based Beretta, which is negotiating with the Pune-based Kalyani Group to create a strategic partnership for providing small arms to Indian security forces, also took part in the Karachi export with the intention to seek buyers for its small arms from Pakistan.

Sources said that Beretta ARX-200, an automatic rifle, has already been shortlisted as a possible weapon to replace the Pakistan Army’s Heckler & Koch G-3 battle rifles.

Official sources said that the possibility of a conflict of interest was high for these private companies as they were dealing with two countries that make their respective military strategies keeping in mind the animosity between them.

“The Defence Ministry, we hope, will look into this very seriously to make sure that there are enough arrangements to stop legal and illegal transfer of technology being made by these companies for India to Pakistan. There should be enough safeguards to make sure that in case of a crisis, our weapons are not rendered useless because the enemy country already knows its strengths and weaknesses,” the source said.

@Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @Khafee @Taygibay & others.

 

[Erl]

No such further progress or would say available to public yet however, only MoU(s) and LoU(s) signed during Ideas -2016. The author may be hinting towards those Us signed and tried to come up with possibility but the source claim is unverified. If there would be any contact of such level that may include procurement of equipment in this class, IMO, it would be with Thales-AD and TopOwl-F (HMDs) at the same time as we wouldn't go for singular solutions and would acquire more through one vendor by these contracts.


Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live (an indian source)
Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified

 

[Hareeb]

Are French trustworthy to supply weapon systems on a single notice? Whats the purpose to buy systems those are prone to US sanctions incase of war?
Pakistan should co-develop ADS with Turkey or buy from China.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Are French trustworthy to supply weapon systems on a single notice? Whats the purpose to buy systems those are prone to US sanctions incase of war?
Pakistan should co-develop ADS with Turkey or buy from China.

Pakistan should develop its own ADS.

Though the French are generally a reliable source, and most of its equipment is American free.

 

[Hareeb]

Pakistan should develop its own ADS.

Though the French are generally a reliable source, and most of its equipment is American free.

Bhai developing anything needs R&D---money and time. So its economically fesible to buy a thing rather than developing one.
Or-- can have JV with other firms which will be cost-effective and a better product at the end as two minds are better than one.
Well, French products are expensive too. We can have similiar but cheap products through JVs.

 

[Path-Finder]

No such further progress or would say available to public yet however, only MoU(s) and LoU(s) signed during Ideas -2016. The author may be hinting towards those Us signed and tried to come up with possibility but the source claim is unverified. If there would be any contact of such level that may include procurement of equipment in this class, IMO, it would be with Thales-AD and TopOwl-F (HMDs) at the same time as we wouldn't go for singular solutions and would acquire more through one vendor by these contracts.


Abhinandan Mishra of the Sunday Guardian Live (an indian source)
Although Mishra’s report is not yet verified
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, form the same source, interestingly following article sequenced the matter through their own observations... In the same article, Indian Officials actually indirectly yet on low level, blamed these companies that are in contract or want to sign a deal with Pakistan. India itself suspected the few top most suppliers through such reservations. Now coming from another point of view w.r.t. Pakistan dealings with these companies and all those Indian claims saying that A, B or C company wouldn't deal with Pakistan anymore due to Indian influence or economy, actually debunked openly.


Foreign firms trying to Make in India also eyeing arms sales to Pakistan
By ABHINANDAN MISHRA | NEW DELHI | 3 December, 2016

Agencies are worried of legal and illegal transfers of technology by these companies from India to Pakistan.


Indian security agencies have raised concerns over certain international defence companies who are pushing for increased arms sales to Pakistan on the one hand but trying to increase their presence in the Indian arms market on the other, to become a part of the Centre’s flagship “Make in India” campaign.

These companies, according to sources, include the France-based Thales defence, Italy-based Leonardo-Finmeccanica, France based MBDA and Beretta of Italy, which took part in the recently held International defence exhibition in Karachi from 22 to 25 November. The who’s who of Pakistan decision makers, including diplomats and officials from the defence ministry, attended the exhibition and met the representatives of these private companies.

The exhibition was organised by the Defence Export Promotion Organization (DEPO), which has been established by the Government of Pakistan as a facilitation agency for all customer inquiries and to coordinate the export of high quality defence products and services.

Sources said that Thales, which is one of the major contributors to India’s demand for arms and related technologies, showcased its equipment related to air defence systems, naval ships and submarines and naval equipment.

Sources also stated that an “in-principle” deal was also approved between the Pakistan government and Thales to provide air defence system to Pakistan, which will be designed keeping the “India threat” in mind. Interestingly, Thales had entered into a joint venture with Navratna defence public sector undertaking Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) to form BEL-THALES Systems Limited, in 2014 to focus on the design, development, marketing, supply and support of civilian and select defence radars for India and the global markets.

BEL holds a 74% stake, while Thales holds 26% of the equity in the JV company.

Similarly, the Italy-based Leonardo-Finmeccanica, which is experiencing a “partial-ban” from the Indian government for its involvement in the VVIP helicopter scam that took place during the UPA government, too, showcased its air defence systems, anti-tank, wall breaching weapon systems, guns and ammunition for armoured vehicles, main battle tanks, armoured vehicles, drones, communication equipments and equipment for detection, information-gathering and identification.

The France-based European missile manufacturer MBDA, which is working with the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and public sector firm Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) to co-develop and manufacture a short-range surface-to-air missile (SRSAM) for the Indian Navy through extensive technology transfer, took part in the Karachi exhibition and exhibited the air defence systems to Pakistani officials, which, according to sources, was “highly appreciated by the Pakistani officials”.

The Italy-based Beretta, which is negotiating with the Pune-based Kalyani Group to create a strategic partnership for providing small arms to Indian security forces, also took part in the Karachi export with the intention to seek buyers for its small arms from Pakistan.

Sources said that Beretta ARX-200, an automatic rifle, has already been shortlisted as a possible weapon to replace the Pakistan Army’s Heckler & Koch G-3 battle rifles.

Official sources said that the possibility of a conflict of interest was high for these private companies as they were dealing with two countries that make their respective military strategies keeping in mind the animosity between them.

“The Defence Ministry, we hope, will look into this very seriously to make sure that there are enough arrangements to stop legal and illegal transfer of technology being made by these companies for India to Pakistan. There should be enough safeguards to make sure that in case of a crisis, our weapons are not rendered useless because the enemy country already knows its strengths and weaknesses,” the source said.

@Horus @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @HRK @Khafee @Taygibay & others.

indeed this notion indians had created by getting companies involved in their defence sector could somehow circumvent Pakistan's defence procurement was nothing more than a fairy tale. the companies sided with india to get the contract and profiteer from them then they offered their systems to Pakistan as well.

an attempt at being smart ultimately fell on its arse as the products are intellectual property of these defence companies not indias

 

[BHarwana]

Yes they are trying to sell because India is going for Russian system and they want India to buy french and in few days India will buy French and this news for Pakistan will fade away. SO hold tight for the news and If India buy russian then they will raise the price for us. typical business tactics of french

 

[The Eagle]

indeed this notion indians had created by getting companies involved in their defence sector could somehow circumvent Pakistan's defence procurement was nothing more than a fairy tale. the companies sided with india to get the contract and profiteer from them then they offered their systems to Pakistan as well.

an attempt at being smart ultimately fell on its arse as the products are intellectual property of these defence companies not indias

Organizations manufacture weapons to sell and cannot remain bound to one buyer. Such notion of not to sell xyz doesn't carry any weight in first until & unless specific/tailor made equipment for a particular party. The hype is created deliberately as well as to undermine any progress of rival while on other hand to build a pressure on supplier through expressing such concerns in light of canceling the deal that supplier will fall for it, which doesn't work in every case. Money talks and if Pakistan can pay, there are no obligations as such until & unless fair amount of insurance is not paid which costs more than procurement plan sometimes.

However, informed Indian friends can shed some light here upon these intelligence reservations/possible Pakistan dealings contrary to the created media hype and claims.

 

[RealNapster]

@The Eagle . Currently India is operating 20 Ground Master surveillance radars. what you think if Pakistan go for Ground Master 400. will the Indian experience with these radars effect us ?

 

[Taygibay]

Thales’ air defence product catalogue comprises of the following:

• GROUND Master-200 and Master-400 air surveillance radars;
• RAPID very short-range air defence (VSHORAD) systems;
• SKYVIEW C4I system;
• SHIELD air defence system, can be integrated with various third-party solutions;
• STAR SHORAD and VSHORAD system;
• CONTROL air defence management system.

Let's see ... no for Rapid/Star as FM-90s are supposed to take care of that.

No also for the Shield as an integrated solution due to the LY-80. Besides,
Pakistan already has GroundMaster. Too bad as the SAMP/T was a joint
Thales-MBDA product & both were mentioned in the OP.

So most likely would be Control and Skyview.
I'll check for grapevine vibes before answering further.

BRB ( sort of ), Tay.