Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[Reichmarshal]

Mud is still the biggest worry....i have seen our tanks stuck in Punjab plains, and here the mud is nowhere near to what Ukraine has. At that time, a team of 20 horses couldnt move a single field artillery piece an inch....same for wheeled vehicles....

Mud also increases the fuel consumption....estimate of our times was multiplied by three....strain of logistics.....

Then if its cold as well, mud used to freeze, and in the morning it took us alot of blow torches to get them free....

Nasty times.

View attachment 820972

so let me get this right, you fought in ww2 on the Russian front for the nazis n then again found urself in Punjab on the side of PA

 

[Joe Shearer]

All modern tanks have reactive armor. The reactive armor on the Arjun is not too impressive compared to what’s on the Pakistani VT-4s. It is likely Better than or comparable to reactive armor used on Pakistani T80UDs, Al-Khalids and Indian T90S. Reactive armor is one part of a tanks total armor. There’s the base armor, there’s the composite layer on top of that, and then the reactive armor on top of that. Arjun, like all modern tanks, has all three, the vulnerability lies in the coverage of this armor, my complaint was that there’s little to no armor on the sides of the Arjun (especially the MK-1, the 1A makes some minor improvements in this regard), leaving it vulnerable to any attack that isn’t directly from the front (again, this is an issue with all the above mentioned tanks apart from the T90S which at least has some side protection due to its Russian origin, the others just have their rather thin base armor on the sides).
Otherwise Arjuns armor isn’t impressive in general for its size, with large weak spots on the turret and the hull (the latter was fixed in MK-1A, former wasn’t). Then again, the Al-Khalid has rather poor armor too. The only tanks I’d consider to be well armored in the sub-continent are the T90S and the VT-4s. However india does have much older ammunition on all its tanks, ammo that likely cannot penetrate all but the weakest of Pakistani tanks (Type 85s, Al-Zarrars, Type 59 and 69s). I’ve talked about this stuff at length on the forum before, it’s all technical details that are rather boring unless you’re into numbers and like to geek out over tanks.

This is invaluable. I'm more than two to three years out of date about current developments. My professional interest was making simulators for the Army to give its gunners enough practice, and that worked, sort of, in that we did provide something around the time I left.

However india does have much older ammunition on all its tanks, ammo that likely cannot penetrate all but the weakest of Pakistani tanks (Type 85s, Al-Zarrars, Type 59 and 69s). I’ve talked about this stuff at length on the forum before, it’s all technical details that are rather boring unless you’re into numbers and like to geek out over tanks.

So this gives me the cue. I'm looking up all your old posts over the next couple of days.

Good to know they don’t think the uncooled sight is an issue, I would assume that modern ones aren’t as bad in that regard as older ones. Arjun does have rather good sights, they comparable to newer Al-Khalids and VT-4s, better than the T90S, T80UD etc. Arjun (MK1A specifically) is also pretty good in regards to its Fire control and other electronic systems.

Apparently there are raw spots on various egos. The boffin (Gr D, so one from the top) was really upset and it didn't seem appropriate to keep him engaged in conversation. But yes, he was an electronics guy, and he did insist they had done a great deal for the systems.

 

[Joe Shearer]

However as mentioned earlier it fails at the basics of tank design; mobility, firepower, armor.

OK, on this, the short answer I got was that the Army had given specs originally that favoured mobility and firepower over protection, they got it, then they themselves and nobody else ("...not the <expletive deleted> <neighbouring country on our west>, not the <expletive deleted> <neighbouring country to our north>...") went and shot themselves in the foot, and insisted on nearly a hundred changes that added over 15% weight. So they got protection, and lost mobility, and due to the efflux of time, any advantage in firepower that they should have had.

It really was not the sort of conversation that was encouraging.

Other references, taken up after these two and their horribly opposite responses, seemed to side with the boffin a lot more, but those were not service people.

That being said, the number of Arjuns in the IA is so minuscule that it will barely have an effect on the overall Indian offensives. I’ve always argued that the entire Indian armored fleet in general is not impressive (technologically) when compared to Pakistani tanks

Completely agree.

Twice, we have had an advantage in having simpler systems that gave us firepower and good ammunition rather than speed, with a fair amount of protection, and it seems that the Armoured Corps just doesn't have much of an institutional memory. It seems in hindsight (always 20-20 accurate) that we should have stuck to this formula. This without the benefit of stacking up such a fictional prototype against actual Pakistani armour, and trying to evaluate the consequences.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They do make up for it in numbers somewhat, but their real strength lies in how strong the supporting elements of the IA are (gunships, SHORADs, artillery, ATGMs etc), they more than easily make up for any shortcomings in the armor department, tanks aren’t the biggest threat to tanks, they are infantry support.

To be honest, it does not seem that there was a single engagement where either side showed superiority in handling armour in mass at high speed. Besides Chawinda (and what one merciless commentary calls the Gadag Gallop), and the utter failure of 1st Armoured Div. to overcome resistance (from one regiment!), and the debacle after Khem Karan, by the other side, only the fiasco at Longewal and the brutal resistance by Tajammul Malik against vastly superior numbers are available. People get taken up in the apparent outline of the story of the Longewal resistance (purely bogus, from the Army pov) and forget that the thrust was intended to paralyse Khambatta's own effort. That was achieved almost completely.

The only single instance I can think of was Eftekhar Janjua's totally out of character (wrt south Asian standards) effort, that died with the commander. I think it was M. J. Akbar who said that God was always on the side of India.

 

[jhungary]

@PanzerKiel

For M-113, its the the driver and the commander in the driver’s compartment and 10 men in the personnel compartment. Can additional five troops be seated on the floor between the personnel compartment troop seats ?

8 men in a Bradley and the inside stink like high heaven, I can't imagine what 13 men inside a M113 would be like. ...

 

[Raja Porus]

The vehicle above will get into serious trouble in the deep

It'll operate where the APCs will operate.

they are infantry support

Guderian wrote a complete book on this... If he saw this he would've hung himself

utter failure of 1st Armoured Div. to overcome resistance (from one regiment

19 Lancers and Guides also deserve a mention.

To be honest, it does not seem that there was a single engagement where either side showed superiority in handling armour in mass at high speed. Besides Chawinda (and what one merciless commentary calls the Gadag Gallop), and the utter failure of 1st Armoured Div. to overcome resistance (from one regiment!), and the debacle after Khem Karan, by the other side, only the fiasco at Longewal and the brutal resistance by Tajammul Malik against vastly superior numbers are available. People get taken up in the apparent outline of the story of the Longewal resistance (purely bogus, from the Army pov) and forget that the thrust was intended to paralyse Khambatta's own effort. That was achieved almost completely.

The only single instance I can think of wa Eftekhar Janjua's totally out of character (wrt south Asian standards) effort, that died with the commander. I think it was M. J. Akbar who said that God was always on the side of India.

What I've noticed is that in Subcontinent, Armour gets all the discussions; Infantry gets all the medals while Artillery (most often) which saves them all is sidelined.

 

[iLION12345_1]

This is invaluable. I'm more than two to three years out of date about current developments. My professional interest was making simulators for the Army to give its gunners enough practice, and that worked, sort of, in that we did provide something around the time I left.


So this gives me the cue. I'm looking up all your old posts over the next couple of days.

That to me is high praise, look for my posts in the threads related to Pakistani armor (this one, The one about Al-Khalid and the one about VT-4). If you have trouble finding the posts, I can link them for you later.

I’m not well versed on tactics or war history, so every time someone mentions something I go look it up on google, I’m more of a technical person, I find those easier to talk about than hypothetical war scenarios

It'll operate where the APCs will operate.


Guderien wrote a complete book on this... If he saw this he would've hung himself


19 Lancers and Guides also deserve a mention.


What I've noticed is that in Subcontinent, Armour gets all the discussions; Infantry gets all the medals while Artillery (most often) which saves them all is sidelined.

Sorry Mr Guderien

This is invaluable. I'm more than two to three years out of date about current developments. My professional interest was making simulators for the Army to give its gunners enough practice, and that worked, sort of, in that we did provide something around the time I left.

Now that is certainly something. Maybe I’ll ask you more about those someday, if you’re allowed to talk about it of course.
Until you’ll find me trying to push numbers and technology into debates about tactics.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It'll operate where the APCs will operate.

Umm, well, you have a point, in that, if an APC can handle it, this vehicle can handle it.

I'm saying that both will be in trouble in the Thar.

Guderian wrote a complete book on this... If he saw this he would've hung himself

He's lucky, he went along with the Commando Order and he headed the court martial for those in the von Stauffenberg attempt, he could quite possibly have been hanged by the Allies.

That is not to deny his role in creating armoured formations that operated on a different principle from anything seen before. We are coming up for the centenary of that concept being put up and implemented.

 

[Joe Shearer]

19 Lancers and Guides also deserve a mention.

Of course.

I was dramatising the encounter.

What I've noticed is that in Subcontinent, Armour gets all the discussions; Infantry gets all the medals while Artillery (most often) which saves them all is sidelined.

...right down to rig.

I don't know if you have these little bits of one-upmanship in Pakistan, but cavalry officers and men in the Indian Army tend to wear their uniform olive green trousers slightly, ever so slightly slimmer than the PBI. Nobody looks to see what the gunner is wearing, of course.

8 men in a Bradley and the inside stink like high heaven, I can't imagine what 13 men inside a M113 would be like. ...

Have you never been in a barracks dorm?

That to me is high praise, look for my posts in the threads related to Pakistani armor (this one, The one about Al-Khalid and the one about VT-4). If you have trouble finding the posts, I can link them for you later.

It's a confession. I know nothing about these devices, except being popped into a T90 by my boisterous friend, who was getting us both a very grand time because he was Panag's batch-mate. When they poured me into that narrow space, that was my epiphanic moment - I'd write about tanks, from a very safe distance.

Russian tanks are incredibly cramped. They are also bloody unsafe.

Sorry Mr Guderien

???
You got it right the first time!

 

[Joe Shearer]

That to me is high praise, look for my posts in the threads related to Pakistani armor (this one, The one about Al-Khalid and the one about VT-4). If you have trouble finding the posts, I can link them for you later.

I’m not well versed on tactics or war history, so every time someone mentions something I go look it up on google, I’m more of a technical person, I find those easier to talk about than hypothetical war scenarios


Sorry Mr Guderien


Now that is certainly something. Maybe I’ll ask you more about those someday, if you’re allowed to talk about it of course.
Until you’ll find me trying to push numbers and technology into debates about tactics.

It was twenty years ago, so I don't see that anything harmful can happen. We did most of our simulator work on aircraft, actually, only two on terrestrial vehicles, one of them a firing simulator for the T90, the other, a lorry simulator, that we thought we could persuade the Army, the ASC, to take up as a substitute for crashing vehicles while teaching kids how to drive. They were having none of it.

 

[Raja Porus]

don't know if you have these little bits of one-upmanship in Pakistan, but cavalry officers and men in the Indian Army tend to wear their uniform olive green trousers slightly, ever so slightly slimmer than the PBI. Nobody looks to see what the gunner is wearing, of course

Black Dungaree, Black berret, leather cross belt, chain mails, toshdan and golden stripes...they have developed an aura that officers of other corps themselves feel inferior. I think this bravado is more rampant in PA.
The armour boys look down upon others and others admit it as well.
They still think that they are riding their steeds, charging at the enemy and smashing into their lines..
Unfortunately, much of this culture has died down due to WoT, since the army has become cash strapped ( highly saddening for someone like me who is deeply into regimental histories).
Still, most infantry and armour regts are trying to keep this tradition alive.

As far as the gunners are concerned they have tried to make themselves fashionable by bringing in blue lanyards, leather waist belts, red cindy

@PanzerKiel , don't you think we should bring back the "Qamarbands". Apart from being fashionable (esp on mess kit) they also kept the bush jackets in place whenever someone saluted.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Black Dungaree, Black berret, leather cross belt, chain mails, toshdan and golden stripes...they have developed an aura that officers of other corps themselves feel inferior. I think this bravado is more rampant in PA.
The armour boys look down upon others and others admit it as well.
They still think that they are riding their steeds, charging at the enemy and smashing into their lines..
Unfortunately, much of this culture has died down due to WoT, since the army has become cash strapped ( highly saddening for someone like me who is deeply into regimental histories).
Still, most infantry and armour regts are trying to keep this tradition alive.

As far as the gunners are concerned they have tried to make themselves fashionable by bringing in blue lanyards, leather waist belts, red cindy

@PanzerKiel , don't you think we should bring back the "Qamarbands". Apart from being fashionable (esp on mess kit) they also kept the bush jackets in place whenever someone saluted.

The Germans romanticised it. That genie will never get back into the bottle.

 

[Raja Porus]

The Germans romanticised it.

So do many..but the British with the tint of the Raj took it to a whole another level.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Black Dungaree, Black berret, leather cross belt, chain mails, toshdan and golden stripes...they have developed an aura that officers of other corps themselves feel inferior. I think this bravado is more rampant in PA.
The armour boys look down upon others and others admit it as well.
They still think that they are riding their steeds, charging at the enemy and smashing into their lines..
Unfortunately, much of this culture has died down due to WoT, since the army has become cash strapped ( highly saddening for someone like me who is deeply into regimental histories).
Still, most infantry and armour regts are trying to keep this tradition alive.

As far as the gunners are concerned they have tried to make themselves fashionable by bringing in blue lanyards, leather waist belts, red cindy

@PanzerKiel , don't you think we should bring back the "Qamarbands". Apart from being fashionable (esp on mess kit) they also kept the bush jackets in place whenever someone saluted.

The Germans romanticised it. That genie will never get back into the bottle.

Black Dungaree, Black berret, leather cross belt, chain mails, toshdan and golden stripes...they have developed an aura that officers of other corps themselves feel inferior. I think this bravado is more rampant in PA.
The armour boys look down upon others and others admit it as well.
They still think that they are riding their steeds, charging at the enemy and smashing into their lines..
Unfortunately, much of this culture has died down due to WoT, since the army has become cash strapped ( highly saddening for someone like me who is deeply into regimental histories).
Still, most infantry and armour regts are trying to keep this tradition alive.

As far as the gunners are concerned they have tried to make themselves fashionable by bringing in blue lanyards, leather waist belts, red cindy

@PanzerKiel , don't you think we should bring back the "Qamarbands". Apart from being fashionable (esp on mess kit) they also kept the bush jackets in place whenever someone saluted.

I thought cummerbunds are only with mess kit?

 

[Raja Porus]

The Germans romanticised it. That genie will never get back into the bottle.

I thought cummerbunds are only with mess kit?

We had golden ones with red stripes worn with both mess kits as well as SD(ceremonial Khaki), but they were discontinued during Raheel Shareef's tenure. I don't know why.