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Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

I was pondering over the issue of logistics in our desert sectors which inhibits actions in these region for both the armies. Whenever we discuss these regions the first and foremost issue that arises is of logistical support; that is how will either army (especially the one who attacks first and has deeper objectives) sustain its mech forces because when any force, no matter how successful it has been, out runs its logistics, will ultimately have to withdraw leaving all of its initial successes behind or will suffer severe loses if not utter destruction. In deserts, especially ours which are deep and soft, there are few roads through which wheeled logistics can move,thus hampering any broad manoeuvres.
What I want to propose is that we induct some sort of mechanised (not armoured) logistics vehicles which can move in all types of terrains as the tanks and APCs, hence ensuring basic supplies. Although economy of our scale might not be able to sustain this mechanisation on a larger scale however, limited number of these vehicles for our two mech divs(26,25) can be inducted which can atleast carry basic supplies such as ammunition and food etc. These mech supply vehs will sustain the frontline troops until a stable supply line has been established. Also, if and when we tend to retire our M113s we can take the armour out of them(except for the crew compartment) and convert them in such vehicles. Again this will be small in numbers but alteast they will provide the bare minimum. If we implement this, we can increase our axis of advance, avenues of approach and will increase the flexibility for our command.
@Signalian , on your post about Al-Qaswa.
 
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@Signalian , on your post about Al-Qaswa.
Reading this was not a good feeling!

Of course, the reflection that there are other ways of conducting operations in these areas brought some consolation, but using those ways will be a one-time use. As we have seen, each side adopts - or counters - clever wrinkles brought in by the other as quickly as possible.

For now, soft-skinned, armour-reduced/removed APCs (with maybe a 0.50 HMG or two mounted on top to give a false sense of safety if needed) is the way I'd hope to see being done on the other side of the Thar.
How about a class of IA S&T setup for armor/mech forces logistics, for dummies.
I might get shot.
I might get reported.
I might get listened to, by the wrong people.
 
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Reading this was not a good feeling!

Of course, the reflection that there are other ways of conducting operations in these areas brought some consolation, but using those ways will be a one-time use. As we have seen, each side adopts - or counters - clever wrinkles brought in by the other as quickly as possible.

For now, soft-skinned, armour-reduced/removed APCs (with maybe a 0.50 HMG or two mounted on top to give a false sense of safety if needed) is the way I'd hope to see being done on the other side of the Thar.

I might get shot.
I might get reported.
I might get listened to, by the wrong people.
images (21).jpeg


What's wrong in converting an APC into a logistics supply veh that can carry 6tonnes?
 
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View attachment 821225

What's wrong in converting an APC into a logistics supply veh that can carry 6tonnes?
Nothing wrong, but two comments come to mind.

One, it is vulnerable (as is all logistical, unarmed transport).

Two, the discussion started with logistics methods suitable for the desert dividing our two countries. Both sides found traversing the fine-grained deeply-banked sand dunes to be a terrible experience. Z. A. Khan has a graphic description, except that he was by then already pissed off about the state of repair of his vehicles, and mentioned the sand and the clogging of vehicle air-breathing parts as only a glancing blow.

The vehicle above will get into serious trouble in the deep desert; it might do fine on the dry outskirts.

Let me hint.

Except for the extra-professional interest of certain quarters in focussing on Russian tanks, the Arjuna was actually better suited for desert warfare in this desert than any other armoured vehicle. There was a very specific, very technical reason for that, without roots in any nationalist sentiment.
 
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Nothing wrong, but two comments come to mind.

One, it is vulnerable (as is all logistical, unarmed transport).

Two, the discussion started with logistics methods suitable for the desert dividing our two countries. Both sides found traversing the fine-grained deeply-banked sand dunes to be a terrible experience. Z. A. Khan has a graphic description, except that he was by then already pissed off about the state of repair of his vehicles, and mentioned the sand and the clogging of vehicle air-breathing parts as only a glancing blow.

The vehicle above will get into serious trouble in the deep desert; it might do fine on the dry outskirts.

Let me hint.

Except for the extra-professional interest of certain quarters in focussing on Russian tanks, the Arjuna was actually better suited for desert warfare in this desert than any other armoured vehicle. There was a very specific, very technical reason for that, without roots in any nationalist sentiment.
I would change that to “better suited for desert movement”, which might be true.

Desert Warfare (or warfare in general) is not the Arjuns strong suit given the uncooled thermals and NVs, relatively poor T/W (but good weight distribution), poor armor coverage (an issue that plagues literally every tank in South Asia apart from maybe the T90S which itself is getting old) and most importantly the poor gun and ammo.

Agree with the rest though, these M113 platforms will not last in the kind of terrain we have on the border, even with the engineers giving them a good path to drive on (which itself is hard to make in the terrain), the sand wreaks havoc in the working parts of the vehicles.

View attachment 821225

What's wrong in converting an APC into a logistics supply veh that can carry 6tonnes?
I would assume PA does not use these for frontline logistics supply, it might be more useful delivering supplies to a safer back-line or rear-HQ from where it can be distributed to the front in safer ways.
 
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I would change that to “better suited for desert movement”, which might be true.
Yes, that is the correct wording.

Desert Warfare (or warfare in general) is not the Arjuns strong suit given the uncooled thermals and NVs, relatively poor T/W (but good weight distribution), poor armor coverage (an issue that plagues literally every tank in South Asia apart from maybe the T90S which itself is getting old) and most importantly the poor gun and ammo.
I didn't get every point here.

What did you mean uncooled thermals? and NVs? and T/W?

The armour coverage requires a complete overhaul, that can't be done without a certain amount of cooperation from the users. The same for the gun and ammo. This programme has an opportunity to use 130 mm guns that have proved extremely efficient in the field, but it has no godfather at the moment.
 
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Yes, that is the correct wording.


I didn't get every point here.

What did you mean uncooled thermals? and NVs? and T/W?

The armour coverage requires a complete overhaul, that can't be done without a certain amount of cooperation from the users. The same for the gun and ammo. This programme has an opportunity to use 130 mm guns that have proved extremely efficient in the field, but it has no godfather at the moment.
Thermal sights produce a lot of heat. There are both uncooled and cooled thermals used in tanks. Examples of the latter are the Catherine and MATIS series used in Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar, Indian T90S etc. examples of the former are the systems in Arjun and (at least initially) in the Chinese VT-4.

Uncooled thermals in tanks meant specifically for desert warfare is not an ideal decision, it might be related to availability and cost, then again I’m not an expert on thermals, maybe they’ve improved enough for uncooled ones to be as viable as cooled ones in desert warfare. It definitely wasn’t always the case.

T/W is Power to weight ratio (I realize thrust may not have been the right word). The Arjun MK-1A weighs nearly 68 tons but uses the same engine as the 10 ton lighter Arjun MK-1 (a fairly mobile tank). T/W drops from 24.5HP/Ton to 20.5HP/Ton and the maximum speed drops by nearly 10-15KpH, how will that translate to performance in desert sand?

I don’t blame them for the bad armor coverage, it seems no one in Asia knows that tank armor should extend beyond the front. While Russian and Western designs focus more and more on larger armor arcs (extending all the way to the sides of tanks), we’re still stuck with protection arcs that barely cover the front (this includes Pakistan, India, China and even South Korea), even in new designs like the VT-4. If anything hits them head on, they’ll be fine, even a slight angle to the side, and it’s just basic armored steel. I believe Arjun has a better frontal armor arc than any Pakistani tank, but it isn’t being put to good use (no add-on armor).

The point about the gun is fair too, if one is to follow the developmental cycle of the Arjun as well as the Pro-Soviet/Russian bias of the people making the purchases, it starts to make sense. India totally has the capability to fix all of these faults, the only question in my mind now is wether they’ll actually do that or not, because I don’t expect any more orders for the Arjun after the current 114 MK1As on order. It seems they want to move to an entirely new platform (local or imported) to replace their T72s now (that’s what the RFI released by the IA suggests).
 
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Nothing wrong, but two comments come to mind.

One, it is vulnerable (as is all logistical, unarmed transport).

Two, the discussion started with logistics methods suitable for the desert dividing our two countries. Both sides found traversing the fine-grained deeply-banked sand dunes to be a terrible experience. Z. A. Khan has a graphic description, except that he was by then already pissed off about the state of repair of his vehicles, and mentioned the sand and the clogging of vehicle air-breathing parts as only a glancing blow.

The vehicle above will get into serious trouble in the deep desert; it might do fine on the dry outskirts.

Let me hint.

Except for the extra-professional interest of certain quarters in focussing on Russian tanks, the Arjuna was actually better suited for desert warfare in this desert than any other armoured vehicle. There was a very specific, very technical reason for that, without roots in any nationalist sentiment.
Giant Boston Dynamics mules? Terrain hugging, load-bearing quadcopters? Design ammunition/supply crates such that they can be hooked onto these quadcopters? :P
 
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Giant Boston Dynamics mules? Terrain hugging, load-bearing quadcopters? Design ammunition/supply crates such that they can be hooked onto these quadcopters? :P
Stop, STOP.

Where have you been hiding? I thought the coast was clear.
 
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Thermal sights produce a lot of heat. There are both uncooled and cooled thermals used in tanks. Examples of the latter are the Catherine and MATIS series used in Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar, Indian T90S etc. examples of the former are the systems in Arjun and (at least initially) in the Chinese VT-4.

Uncooled thermals in tanks meant specifically for desert warfare is not an ideal decision, it might be related to availability and cost, then again I’m not an expert on thermals, maybe they’ve improved enough for uncooled ones to be as viable as cooled ones in desert warfare. It definitely wasn’t always the case.

T/W is Power to weight ratio (I realize thrust may not have been the right word). The Arjun MK-1A weighs nearly 68 tons but uses the same engine as the 10 ton lighter Arjun MK-1 (a fairly mobile tank). T/W drops from 24.5HP/Ton to 20.5HP/Ton and the maximum speed drops by nearly 10-15KpH, how will that translate to performance in desert sand?

I don’t blame them for the bad armor coverage, it seems no one in Asia knows that tank armor should extend beyond the front. While Russian and Western designs focus more and more on larger armor arcs (extending all the way to the sides of tanks), we’re still stuck with protection arcs that barely cover the front (this includes Pakistan, India, China and even South Korea), even in new designs like the VT-4. If anything hits them head on, they’ll be fine, even a slight angle to the side, and it’s just basic armored steel. I believe Arjun has a better frontal armor arc than any Pakistani tank, but it isn’t being put to good use (no add-on armor).

The point about the gun is fair too, if one is to follow the developmental cycle of the Arjun as well as the Pro-Soviet/Russian bias of the people making the purchases, it starts to make sense. India totally has the capability to fix all of these faults, the only question in my mind now is wether they’ll actually do that or not, because I don’t expect any more orders for the Arjun after the current 114 MK1As on order. It seems they want to move to an entirely new platform (local or imported) to replace their T72s now (that’s what the RFI released by the IA suggests).
I spent a few minutes catching up with 'usually reliable sources', one in development and one a serving officer, both slightly remote people, because most of my mates are retired or retired and dead. The answers were a mixed bag, some comforting, some disquieting.

With some editing due to the nature of this forum, whatever I could glean in very short conversations follows.
 
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Thermal sights produce a lot of heat. There are both uncooled and cooled thermals used in tanks. Examples of the latter are the Catherine and MATIS series used in Al-Khalid, Al-Zarrar, Indian T90S etc. examples of the former are the systems in Arjun and (at least initially) in the Chinese VT-4.

Uncooled thermals in tanks meant specifically for desert warfare is not an ideal decision, it might be related to availability and cost, then again I’m not an expert on thermals, maybe they’ve improved enough for uncooled ones to be as viable as cooled ones in desert warfare. It definitely wasn’t always the case.
Two opposite reactions. The boffin was very angry, and said that the equipment fitted onto the Arjun did not give off infra-red or heat detection system signatures, and was thermally uncooled precisely to be invisible to such sensors. The soldier was nonchalant and said, rather airily, that there was nothing to fuss about, as all the good features of the Arjun's electronic capability had been incorporated into the indigenous modifications of the T90, so why was everybody getting so excited? He was dismissive about the heat-detection avoiding capabilities of the thermal uncooled sight, saying something to the effect of it being so small against the general heat signature that it didn't matter. When asked about performance under desert conditions, he said it hadn't been in desert service long enough to conclude anything.

This pattern, the scientist angry about every point, the soldier amused and dismissive, continued on every point.

I don’t blame them for the bad armor coverage, it seems no one in Asia knows that tank armor should extend beyond the front. While Russian and Western designs focus more and more on larger armor arcs (extending all the way to the sides of tanks), we’re still stuck with protection arcs that barely cover the front (this includes Pakistan, India, China and even South Korea), even in new designs like the VT-4. If anything hits them head on, they’ll be fine, even a slight angle to the side, and it’s just basic armored steel. I believe Arjun has a better frontal armor arc than any Pakistani tank, but it isn’t being put to good use (no add-on armor).
I was told specifically that the Arjun was protected by reactive armour.

Perhaps it calls for digging around a little more.

T/W is Power to weight ratio (I realize thrust may not have been the right word). The Arjun MK-1A weighs nearly 68 tons but uses the same engine as the 10 ton lighter Arjun MK-1 (a fairly mobile tank). T/W drops from 24.5HP/Ton to 20.5HP/Ton and the maximum speed drops by nearly 10-15KpH, how will that translate to performance in desert sand?
Both agreed that a minimum of 1500 HP, preferably 1800 HP, was needed. Apparently this is to be indigenous, and will fitted on to the Future Main Battle Tank.

There are no plans to retrofit a larger engine onto the Arjun.
 
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The point about the gun is fair too, if one is to follow the developmental cycle of the Arjun as well as the Pro-Soviet/Russian bias of the people making the purchases, it starts to make sense. India totally has the capability to fix all of these faults, the only question in my mind now is wether they’ll actually do that or not, because I don’t expect any more orders for the Arjun after the current 114 MK1As on order. It seems they want to move to an entirely new platform (local or imported) to replace their T72s now (that’s what the RFI released by the IA suggests).
About the gun, the original plan was to fit a 155 mm gun into the next FMBT turret.

It was not simply a new development from the ground up, there was discussion about the possibility of fitting either the Denel, or an indigenous build. Dhanush has been suggested, and ATAGS; currently, I am told that Dhanush (a re-build of the Bofors from transfer of technology papers acquired at the time of the original Bofors deal) is held up due to defective ammunition supplied by the then Ordnance Factories Board; the gun itself has been found, after detailed enquiry, and trial, to be quite satisfactory. ATAGS was a DRDO ground up design, to have been manufactured by Bharat Force. This was the famous case where a prototype was seriously damaged, and on investigation it was found that the cheapest solution approach had been followed. The East Asian parts used were defective and caused a serious set-back.

However, another suggestion has been doing the rounds, but it has no backing at the moment.
 
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Two opposite reactions. The boffin was very angry, and said that the equipment fitted onto the Arjun did not give off infra-red or heat detection system signatures, and was thermally uncooled precisely to be invisible to such sensors. The soldier was nonchalant and said, rather airily, that there was nothing to fuss about, as all the good features of the Arjun's electronic capability had been incorporated into the indigenous modifications of the T90, so why was everybody getting so excited? He was dismissive about the heat-detection avoiding capabilities of the thermal uncooled sight, saying something to the effect of it being so small against the general heat signature that it didn't matter. When asked about performance under desert conditions, he said it hadn't been in desert service long enough to conclude anything.

This pattern, the scientist angry about every point, the soldier amused and dismissive, continued on every point.


I was told specifically that the Arjun was protected by reactive armour.

Perhaps it calls for digging around a little more.


Both agreed that a minimum of 1500 HP, preferably 1800 HP, was needed. Apparently this is to be indigenous, and will fitted on to the Future Main Battle Tank.

There are no plans to retrofit a larger engine onto the Arjun.
All modern tanks have reactive armor. The reactive armor on the Arjun is not too impressive compared to what’s on the Pakistani VT-4s. It is likely Better than or comparable to reactive armor used on Pakistani T80UDs, Al-Khalids and Indian T90S. Reactive armor is one part of a tanks total armor. There’s the base armor, there’s the composite layer on top of that, and then the reactive armor on top of that. Arjun, like all modern tanks, has all three, the vulnerability lies in the coverage of this armor, my complaint was that there’s little to no armor on the sides of the Arjun (especially the MK-1, the 1A makes some minor improvements in this regard), leaving it vulnerable to any attack that isn’t directly from the front (again, this is an issue with all the above mentioned tanks apart from the T90S which at least has some side protection due to its Russian origin, the others just have their rather thin base armor on the sides).
Otherwise Arjuns armor isn’t impressive in general for its size, with large weak spots on the turret and the hull (the latter was fixed in MK-1A, former wasn’t). Then again, the Al-Khalid has rather poor armor too. The only tanks I’d consider to be well armored in the sub-continent are the T90S and the VT-4s. However india does have much older ammunition on all its tanks, ammo that likely cannot penetrate all but the weakest of Pakistani tanks (Type 85s, Al-Zarrars, Type 59 and 69s). I’ve talked about this stuff at length on the forum before, it’s all technical details that are rather boring unless you’re into numbers and like to geek out over tanks.

Good to know they don’t think the uncooled sight is an issue, I would assume that modern ones aren’t as bad in that regard as older ones. Arjun does have rather good sights, they comparable to newer Al-Khalids and VT-4s, better than the T90S, T80UD etc. Arjun (MK1A specifically) is also pretty good in regards to its Fire control and other electronic systems. However as mentioned earlier it fails at the basics of tank design; mobility, firepower, armor.

That being said, the number of Arjuns in the IA is so minuscule that it will barely have an effect on the overall Indian offensives. I’ve always argued that the entire Indian armored fleet in general is not impressive (technologically) when compared to Pakistani tanks. They do make up for it in numbers somewhat, but their real strength lies in how strong the supporting elements of the IA are (gunships, SHORADs, artillery, ATGMs etc), they more than easily make up for any shortcomings in the armor department, tanks aren’t the biggest threat to tanks, they are infantry support.

The biggest threat to tanks are drones, infantry with ATGMs and gunships, and india certainly isn’t lacking in 2/3 of those departments right now. The biggest losses of armored vehicles on either sides in a Pak-India conflict will be to troops with AT-rocket launchers and ATGMs, and these losses will be massive.
 
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