Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[CriticalThought]

From this following hypothesis (and hence questions) can be deduced:
Infantry support:
It is the job of infantry to protect the tanks from such threats especially in urban warfare/LICs. After the the first shot the Infantry should have neutralised the AT team or atleast should have suppressed it considering the fact that SPG-9 has a max effective range of just 600-800m. But in this case the enemy was able to fire multiple shots at the tank and infantry was unable to provide timely response. It can be said that the Infantry was of SIB but still cooperation with tanks is one of the basic necessities in modern warfare andour soldiers are given training on it.
Air support by Cobras:
An AT team would've made an important target for our cobras but they were unable to neutralise it especially if the AT team had fired multiple times. It can be said the they had RTB but it is highly unlikely as the Cobras gave all round protection especially when the enemy was present in enough force to attack tanks with spg. Another point may be that infantry was unable to guide the pilots,another fatal mistake.
Artillery Support:
Our ops in Bajaur and Swat were supported with field and even medium artillery. One of the main objectives of arty in modern warfare along with the softening up of enemy is the suppression of enemy AT teams and ambushes but in this case arty was alao unable to provide timely fire and again the blame can be put on the Infantry for not being able to provide timely coordinates to them. Same can be said of the inf mortars if there were any.
Accompanying Tanks:
If the crew of the tank after being hit was badly hurt and unable to respond,the supporting tanks should have deployed smoke screens and suppressed/neutralised the AT teams but they were unable to do so.
All of these elements are necessary for combined arms warfare and if anyone of these are missing then it could lead to mission failure which may have strategic implications. Also our enemy in the east will have better atgms(incl fnf), the air will be contested, enemy inf will be using better tactics and our arty will also be facing counter battery fire.
P.S, I know I'm comparing LIC with conventional warfare and that changes/improvements must have been brought.
@PanzerKiel @Signalian @iLION12345_1 @Tipu7 @HRK
@Inception-06

I think you have some very good thoughts. They might not be informed through experience, but it shows you have the ability to take a deeper look at things, try to identify problems, and come up with solutions. I really want to encourage you to continue doing that. Don't be demotivated by the usual low IQ Pakistani nay sayers.

At the end of the day, I don’t think too much thought should be given to these incidents. It was over 12 years ago now, things have changed, improved and a lot of information about how things happened has been lost, so assuming may just lead to false conclusions. Losing a tank or two for peace was not a bad trade

Wrong. We should revisit these situations, analyze them, and try to derive lessons for the future. They serve as excellent test cases that can be discussed at PMA Kakul and other institutions.

 

[CriticalThought]

I'm humbled sir. What I've written is not that bad for a 17 year old.

Sounds so cliched, but Muhammad Bin Qasim was 17 when he conquered Sind. An intelligent, analytical mind can achieve superiority over age by constantly re-evaluating assumptions and making corrections.

 

[Raja Porus]

Wrong. We should revisit these situations, analyze them, and try to derive lessons for the future. They serve as excellent test cases that can be discussed at PMA Kakul and other institutions

Exactly that was my point.

 

[CriticalThought]

....

 

[Raja Porus]

Hey @Desert Fox 1 while we are on the topic of millimetre wave radars, that is the technology we were supposed to get with the AH1Zs. It would have made finding those AT teams so much easier from the air. Unfortunately, the traitor Bajwa wanted to 'reset' ties with America, and as part of that, gave them full access to Pakistani land and air routes without charging them a single penny. Think about it. America wants to keep you engrossed in these sort of problems and will never give you technology that gives you the definite upper hand. American puppets make decisions that forward this American agenda.

I suppose the way Pakistan is being made the scapegoat ( rightly though) of the US defeat in Afghanistan is to prevent Pakistan from capitalising on their retreat. I hope we play that withdrawal from Afghanistan card to the best, which, honestly, we have been waiting to play for quite some time.

 

[iLION12345_1]

I think you have some very good thoughts. They might not be informed through experience, but it shows you have the ability to take a deeper look at things, try to identify problems, and come up with solutions. I really want to encourage you to continue doing that. Don't be demotivated by the usual low IQ Pakistani nay sayers.


Wrong. We should revisit these situations, analyze them, and try to derive lessons for the future. They serve as excellent test cases that can be discussed at PMA Kakul and other institutions.

Well that should be left for PMA Kakul to do, that’s kind of what I meant. People on PDF have a habit of making stories, as is clear with the original thread about that incident. I’m sure it’s been analyzed enough where needed.
I don’t see this example applying too well to Conventional ops in desert warfare and plains. Which is what would actually be use scenario of Pakistani tanks, I get what you mean though.

Yes, you constantly see videos of tanks being blown by IEDs or ATGMs in Syria etc and wonder how Pakistan managed to lose only 3.

Tanks were not used on that large scale in Pakistan. Also coin ops are different from civil wars.

Yes, Pakistan used much fewer tanks, apart from Swat there was really no place to use them as the mountains of FATA without any roads or plains are not really suitable for tank usage. At the same time whatever our military was doing was much better planned than whatever goes on in Syria, thankfully.

 

[Raja Porus]

I don’t see this example applying too well to Conventional ops in desert warfare

Pakistan army's 6th amoured division ( and hence 1corps) has no desert area in its area of responsibility i.e Northern Punjab, which is quite suitable for ambushes not only by infantry but even by tanks.
Remember what Indian centurions did to our pattons of 1st armd div in khem kharan.
Similarly, our 13FF's ambushes in Sialkot were one of the key factors in that battle...

 

[iLION12345_1]

Pakistan army's 6th amoured division ( and hence 1corps) has no desert area in its area of responsibility i.e Northern Punjab, which is quite suitable for ambushes not only by infantry but even by tanks.
Remember what Indian centurions did to our pattons of 1st armd div in khem kharan.
Similarly, our 23FF's ambushes in Sialkot were one of the key factors in that battle...

Yes, I meant conventional ops in deserts as an example, similarly in plains or hilly areas of Punjab, Emphasis on the conventional ops, in those cases a single tank like this with a small party of soldiers is a very unlikely sight, especially without prior recon and cover from other arms. I guess that’s where we have learned from such incidents, the improvement of combined arms, especially with other forces like AF.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well that should be left for PMA Kakul to do, that’s kind of what I meant. People on PDF have a habit of making stories, as is clear with the original thread about that incident. I’m sure it’s been analyzed enough where needed.
I don’t see this example applying too well to Conventional ops in desert warfare and plains. Which is what would actually be use scenario of Pakistani tanks, I get what you mean though.

Combine shifting sand dunes, low visibility during sand storm, and pure bad luck, and you can find yourself surrounded on three sides by the enemy. Or consider an enemy raiding party using sand dunes as cover to give you a surprise. Or even the use of camouflage to gain advantage. You can find yourself in an ambush situation anywhere.

 

[Pakstallion]

As a non military person curious about the utility of drones in this scenario? 2008 was a very different time but thinking more to the future. Credit to the 35 that were able to survive such a scenario. If it was the US there would be a blockbuster movie about it.

 

[iLION12345_1]

As a non military person curious about the utility of drones in this scenario? 2008 was a very different time but thinking more to the future. Credit to the 35 that were able to survive such a scenario. If it was the US there would be a blockbuster movie about it.

In such a scenario an armed drone would have been extremely useful, or really even an unarmed one. The soldiers could have seen the enemy positions from it and even engaged them without leaving their covered positions and the Taliban would have no way to counter it.
Pakistan has used Drones in combat since 2014 to great success and with current procurements of CH4B, WL2 (apparently) plus our own Burraq and upcoming MALE UCAVs, Pakistan is investing plenty in this sector. Each military arm is getting its own UCAVs and UAVs.

 

[Inception-06]

But I've usually seen and heard of squadron being deployed.

I should have added that there is no negativity in my criticism.

You should download and play two games. One is called Middle East campaign by John Tiller:

Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm:

Both are realistic and authentic Military scenario games. In this Game you learn so much as you are learning from Field Sand Box exercises.

 

[Inception-06]

Pakistan army's 6th amoured division ( and hence 1corps) has no desert area in its area of responsibility i.e Northern Punjab, which is quite suitable for ambushes not only by infantry but even by tanks.
Remember what Indian centurions did to our pattons of 1st armd div in khem kharan.
Similarly, our 13FF's ambushes in Sialkot were one of the key factors in that battle...

A authentic scenario-strategy war game is also called Panzermarshal, it’s for FREE available in App Store or on PC.

 

[truthfollower]

@PanzerKiel not much changed in tanks design other than incremental improvements?

 

[Signalian]

You should download and play two games. One is called Middle East campaign by John Tiller:
View attachment 735200View attachment 735201

Flashpoint Campaigns Red Storm:

View attachment 735202
Both are realistic and authentic Military scenario games. In this Game you learn so much as you are learning from Field Sand Box exercises.

Played the first game in 2000 as ww2 western campaign. Loved the desert scenarios. Was always trying to save the HQs. 88mm gun was a killer.