MDL calls for early decision on Project 75 India

[arp2041]

With the Indian Navy likely to issue request for proposals (RFPs) for the long awaited follow-on Project 75 India submarine build effort, pressure is building for a quick decision on two counts. On the one hand, the Indian Navy's submarine strength is on a downslide and operational availability continues to be a concern. On the other, there is a conscious effort to ensure that the redundancy encountered following the HDW episode in the 1990s is not repeated again.

In fact, providing testimony to the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence recently, Mazagon Dock Ltd Chairman Vice Admiral (Retd) H.S. Malhi said, "Our Hull shops, particularly for the submarine construction, we will start oiling after we finish these six (Scorpenes). So, it will help us if we get the repeat order. So, our request as CMD would be that if that is ordered early on us, we will be able to retain the expertise because it takes a long time to build up expertise on submarine construction. We have already suffered in the past when there was a gap between the SSK and Scorpene. So, we would not like that to repeat. That is a request. That is all from my side."

The first of the six Scorpene submarines being constructed at MDL is to be delivered by June 2015 and the final one by September 2018. MDL is concurrently building all six submarines. According to figures supplied to Parliament, the present status of work completed on the six submarines ranges from 2.45 per cent to 54.84 per cent.

MDL calls for early decision on Project 75 India - SP's Naval Forces

 

[angeldemon_007]

I think its time for MDL to build their own submarine

 

[sancho]

I think its time for MDL to build their own submarine

Let them finish at least some of the Scorpenes first, we have the tendancy to jump into own developments to fast and that's also a reason why modernisation of the forces is very slow.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
If the french sub is not selected in P75I then i don't think MDL should be given P75I simply because they are not capable of building two completely different submarines one after another. They can hardly build Scorpene. Thats why i think MDL should now start working on an indegenous design based on Scorpene and they can use the help of DCNS. Meanwhile they could continue to spend as much time as they want with Scorpene Submarines.

I mean after spending so much on ToT followed by so much delays and cost over-run, for ones indian taxpayers would like to see what our defence PSUs learn from ToT and is it even worth spending billions on ToT which not only incareses the project cost but also effects armed forces modernization and on top of this like i said the demon of mismanagement, over-confidence which results in time delays and cost over-runs.

In the meantime IN would not have to wait for MDL to extend the deadline again. While 2 P75I submarine can be handed over to the shipyard selected and while a new shipyard can be made ready by that time to develop the remaining 4 subs on the domestic yard.

I also wanna say what i think is the best course of action only if dcns is not selected for P75I, but if dcns is again selected for P75I project, then best course of action will be while MDL is busy developing the Scorpene subs, the frist two sub can be built by DCNS and when they are finished with Scorpene they could go for the remaining 4 P75I subs.

 

[sancho]

I mean after spending so much on ToT followed by so much delays and cost over-run, for ones indian taxpayers would like to see what our defence PSUs learn from ToT and is it even worth spending billions on ToT which not only incareses the project cost but also effects armed forces modernization and on top of this like i said the demon of mismanagement, over-confidence which results in time delays and cost over-runs.

Paying and getting ToT is one thing, beeing able to absorb the ToT with the limited capablities of Indian industry so far is another! That's maybe the most interesting point that will be negotiated in MMRCA right now, because we might ask for 50%, but that doesn't mean we can absorb 50%. The fact that DCNS India was able to provide Scorpene parts in time or even ahead of it, while MDL faces major problems also shows that there is still a long way till we really can develop and produce comparable subs on our own.
Another problem that I see is, that the NG conventional subs should be AIP subs, but exactly here we don't get any ToT so far, since the French are adding it later only and it seems we still haven't cleared the AIP procurement so far. That means we basically learn how to develop a modern diesel-electric sub, but not the AIP propulsion. That gets even more difficult, since the French MESA AIP is different to the fuel cell AIP that DRDO seems to develop, which shows what a mess the selection of Scorpene back than was for India. Lets hope we really got useful ToT for our nuclear subs from them, but for the conventional sub field it was clearly the wrong choice.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I recognise what MDL are saying, they want to maintain steady orders and a steady workforce. However much of the delays in P75 are because of structural issues at MDL and their issues initially to not be ablet absorb the ToT/technology. I think IN is thus right in pursuing having the first 2 boats built abroad. This seems to be part of a much wider re-think by IN to speed up their own rate of induction and aliviate some pressure from over burdened Indian ship yards. Just look at many recent deals/proposals- minesweepers and LHD/LPD both deals stipulate first 2 boats being built abroad with remainder in India. In certainly seem to save learnt from their mistakes.

 

[angeldemon_007]

Paying and getting ToT is one thing, beeing able to absorb the ToT with the limited capablities of Indian industry so far is another! That's maybe the most interesting point that will be negotiated in MMRCA right now, because we might ask for 50%, but that doesn't mean we can absorb 50%.

Yeah i know. We have been purchasing alot of equipment from US through FMS route. We purchase weapon without ToT through FMS, the technology which indian companies can absorb but we purchase them through FMS. P75 subs could have been purchased through FMS if indian companies were not capable of absorbing the tech (Although subs & ASW capability is must for India and hence everything is accepted except MDL)

Another problem that I see is, that the NG conventional subs should be AIP subs, but exactly here we don't get any ToT so far, since the French are adding it later only and it seems we still haven't cleared the AIP procurement so far. That means we basically learn how to develop a modern diesel-electric sub, but not the AIP propulsion.

I don't get it. By NG did you meant P75I. We will get AIP tech. Infact this whole P75I project might fall if this tech is not given, just like aesa in MMRCA.

That means we basically learn how to develop a modern diesel-electric sub, but not the AIP propulsion. That gets even more difficult, since the French MESA AIP is different to the fuel cell AIP that DRDO seems to develop, which shows what a mess the selection of Scorpene back than was for India.

Yeah its a mess. According to Prasun Sengupta IN has selected Swedish Stirling AIP.

Lets hope we really got useful ToT for our nuclear subs from them, but for the conventional sub field it was clearly the wrong choice.

I really am not sure about these Barracuda SSN idea. I mean other newspapers like TOI and bloggers like Prasun Sengupta no official report is there, i mean a report from either the MOD or IN or even the shipyard selected for building them. Yeah does anybody knows who will be building SSNs ?? MDL can't even build SSK, HSL is busy with SSBN, then who is gonna build SSN especially considering the number of SSN will be large as compared to SSBN which at max will be 5 in number.

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I think IN is thus right in pursuing having the first 2 boats built abroad. This seems to be part of a much wider re-think by IN to speed up their own rate of induction and aliviate some pressure from over burdened Indian ship yards. Just look at many recent deals/proposals- minesweepers and LHD/LPD both deals stipulate first 2 boats being built abroad with remainder in India. In certainly seem to save learnt from their mistakes.

IN also wanted to practise the same procedure in P17a frigate but MDL somehow managed to go over IN and convinced MOD that they can build these frigates. Again MDL has made a huge mistake and the same history of P75 project is gonna repeat here. P17a FFGs will be made by modular shipbuilding and will include composite technology, both which are new to Indian shipyard. In fact this could be even bigger disaster because if in modular shipbuilding even one block is made wrong, the ship will have to build from start, even if 90% of the structure is completed thereby causing tremendous delays and an extraordinary increase in cost over-run. IN suggested that first two FFGs could be build abroad and while indian workers can get training during the construction of these first two FFGs, indian shipyard can build the capability and then both of them can join and build the remaining 5 FFGs.

Paying and getting ToT is one thing, beeing able to absorb the ToT with the limited capablities of Indian industry so far is another! That's maybe the most interesting point that will be negotiated in MMRCA right now, because we might ask for 50%, but that doesn't mean we can absorb 50%.

Yeah i know. We have been purchasing alot of equipment from US through FMS route. We purchase weapon without ToT through FMS, the technology which indian companies can absorb but we purchase them through FMS. P75 subs could have been purchased through FMS if indian companies were not capable of absorbing the tech (Although subs & ASW capability is must for India and hence everything is accepted except MDL)

Another problem that I see is, that the NG conventional subs should be AIP subs, but exactly here we don't get any ToT so far, since the French are adding it later only and it seems we still haven't cleared the AIP procurement so far. That means we basically learn how to develop a modern diesel-electric sub, but not the AIP propulsion.

I don't get it. By NG did you meant P75I. We will get AIP tech. Infact this whole P75I project might fall if this tech is not given, just like aesa in MMRCA.

That means we basically learn how to develop a modern diesel-electric sub, but not the AIP propulsion. That gets even more difficult, since the French MESA AIP is different to the fuel cell AIP that DRDO seems to develop, which shows what a mess the selection of Scorpene back than was for India.

Yeah its a mess. According to Prasun Sengupta IN has selected Swedish Stirling AIP.

Lets hope we really got useful ToT for our nuclear subs from them, but for the conventional sub field it was clearly the wrong choice.

I really am not sure about these Barracuda SSN idea. I mean other newspapers like TOI and bloggers like Prasun Sengupta no official report is there, i mean a report from either the MOD or IN or even the shipyard selected for building them. Yeah does anybody knows who will be building SSNs ?? MDL can't even build SSK, HSL is busy with SSBN, then who is gonna build SSN especially considering the number of SSN will be large as compared to SSBN which at max will be 5 in number.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

I think IN is thus right in pursuing having the first 2 boats built abroad. This seems to be part of a much wider re-think by IN to speed up their own rate of induction and aliviate some pressure from over burdened Indian ship yards. Just look at many recent deals/proposals- minesweepers and LHD/LPD both deals stipulate first 2 boats being built abroad with remainder in India. In certainly seem to save learnt from their mistakes.

IN also wanted to practise the same procedure in P17a frigate but MDL somehow managed to go over IN and convinced MOD that they can build these frigates. Again MDL has made a huge mistake and the same history of P75 project is gonna repeat here. P17a FFGs will be made by modular shipbuilding and will include composite technology, both which are new to Indian shipyard. In fact this could be even bigger disaster because if in modular shipbuilding even one block is made wrong, the ship will have to build from start, even if 90% of the structure is completed thereby causing tremendous delays and an extraordinary increase in cost over-run. IN suggested that first two FFGs could be build abroad and while indian workers can get training during the construction of these first two FFGs, indian shipyard can build the capability and then both of them can join and build the remaining 5 FFGs.

 

[arp2041]

^^^
If the french sub is not selected in P75I then i don't think MDL should be given P75I simply because they are not capable of building two completely different submarines one after another. They can hardly build Scorpene. Thats why i think MDL should now start working on an indegenous design based on Scorpene and they can use the help of DCNS. Meanwhile they could continue to spend as much time as they want with Scorpene Submarines.

That would not be at all suitable for our shipbuilding plans and will only delay the project to the next decade, IN can choose whichever submarine they want at least MDL have the expertise now in building submarines and also by the time scorpene project is completed MDL will have two production lines which will help speed up P-75I. So I think MDL only should be given P-75I.

 

[angeldemon_007]

IN can choose whichever submarine they want at least MDL have the expertise now in building submarines

Thats why best option is to chose french design. Just because MDL has somehow able to build Scorpene doesn't mean it can build any other submarine. German or Russian subs are totally different design. They are even build by different materials. MDL, infact its stupidity for any shipyard to build two totally different type of submarines one after another, everything will get messed up, people will really get confused.

The best course of action for MDL is to build submarines based on Scorpenes only, after they complete P75. That means either MOD select french design or MDL should start working on separate design based on scorpene. There's no point in redesigning the wheel.

 

[arp2041]

Thats why best option is to chose french design. Just because MDL has somehow able to build Scorpene doesn't mean it can build any other submarine. German or Russian subs are totally different design. They are even build by different materials. MDL, infact its stupidity for any shipyard to build two totally different type of submarines one after another, everything will get messed up, people will really get confused.

The best course of action for MDL is to build submarines based on Scorpenes only, after they complete P75. That means either MOD select french design or MDL should start working on separate design based on scorpene. There's no point in redesigning the wheel.

Here the MOD has to choose wisely between better quality or faster induction, if the french subs are better than there is no problem going for them.Also the earlier German subs were also build by MDL.

 

[IND151]

I recognise what MDL are saying, they want to maintain steady orders and a steady workforce. However much of the delays in P75 are because of structural issues at MDL and their issues initially to not be ablet absorb the ToT/technology. I think IN is thus right in pursuing having the first 2 boats built abroad. This seems to be part of a much wider re-think by IN to speed up their own rate of induction and aliviate some pressure from over burdened Indian ship yards. Just look at many recent deals/proposals- minesweepers and LHD/LPD both deals stipulate first 2 boats being built abroad with remainder in India. In certainly seem to save learnt from their mistakes.

this strategy is good

this way, we can have new ships,subs in less time

our docks are overbooked so building some ships abroad is right decision

 

[Dash]

I recognise what MDL are saying, they want to maintain steady orders and a steady workforce. However much of the delays in P75 are because of structural issues at MDL and their issues initially to not be ablet absorb the ToT/technology. I think IN is thus right in pursuing having the first 2 boats built abroad. This seems to be part of a much wider re-think by IN to speed up their own rate of induction and aliviate some pressure from over burdened Indian ship yards. Just look at many recent deals/proposals- minesweepers and LHD/LPD both deals stipulate first 2 boats being built abroad with remainder in India. In certainly seem to save learnt from their mistakes.

I would say, whether thay have learnt from mistakes or not that will depend on what kind of submarine they will choose in P75I.
They are asking 2 sub to be built because they dont have an option and simply cant afford any misses in timeline.

The real scenario will be what sub they are selecting on th next phase. I would completely go for Scorpene with AIP. because it helps me in reducing the difficulty of maintaning 2 "Different" kind of subs, Faster Induction and the most important thing is I get what I want.

I am sure IN wont make a mistake of seleting any other sub than Scoepene with MESMA AIP.

 

[sancho]

I don't get it. By NG did you meant P75I. We will get AIP tech. Infact this whole P75I project might fall if this tech is not given, just like aesa in MMRCA.

Yes, but you said that we paid for all the ToT in the earlier Scorpene procurement and should take it to build our own subs now, but since that procurement didn't included AIP ToT, we can't build an AIP sub now. That's why we need P75I including ToT of the AIP propulsion, to get an idea of how to develop such a propulsion later on our own.

According to Prasun Sengupta IN has selected Swedish Stirling AIP.

Which is wrong, first of all the Stirling AIP was developed by Siemens Germany for the Swedish subs, secondly the French have their own MESMA propulsion, which they offer and showed at the Defexpo this year.

I really am not sure about these Barracuda SSN idea.

I didn't meant Brracuda class, I meant that we most likely got ToT for the development of Arihant. Some systems that will be used for Scorpenes are based on sytems of other French nuclear subs, so if we had ToT benefit through the deal, it was for the nuclear sub program.