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MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter

news from India are always sound exciting :blah: however the outcomes are always dissapointing!

Because most indians cannot understand the differences between pragmatic planning and something 'flying upon the air'!
 
Kiinetic the Indian private industry must chip in with smaller inputs first.

Like materials research. Chemical research. Participating with the academia etc.

They need to start funding research projects in universities. That's the starting point.

I agree but they will not do that. Instead they will look towards govt for funding their projects though they have enough money to fund the R&D. Private companies have contributed very little towards India's indigenous equipments except IT. They have expertise only in one area, bribing the politicians and getting things done in illegal ways. Only one or two companies are trying something.
 
Kiinetic the Indian private industry must chip in with smaller inputs first.

Like materials research. Chemical research. Participating with the academia etc.

They need to start funding research projects in universities. That's the starting point.

i agree with u but if they are not allowed to take baby steps then how will the walk...........
 
First, nobody has noticed the initial mischief created by the wise guy who wrote the ASR for the IAF and put in that whole bloody multi-role bit all over again, as we haven't had enough grief over this already. The IAF persists in believing that one aircraft, frame, engine, avionics, radar, weapons configurations, manning, all put together, can be made to fly two roles. This is stuff and nonsense and stems from two deep-rooted fears, which have nothing - NOTHING - to do with the professional role of the IAF.

The eternal yearning for multi-role aircraft stems from a need to keep the army out of aviation. It was not possible to keep the navy out, partly because of the influence that Former Naval Persons at the very top of Indian administration had on the politicians who took over at independence. From that point on, there has never been an opportunity given to the army to get into aviation, except for forward observers in artillery: a number of gunners have become helicopter pilots. However, the air force does not want to give up an inch of space to the army, to ground attack roles, for instance, and insists on combining this with its other deep strike, air superiority and interception roles (leaving aside the transport wing altogether for now).

The second reason for these recurring and futile dreams is the need for standardisation. The difficulty of maintaining such a diverse fleet cannot be imagined by most of us on this forum; those who know that each major component, each rotary component in particular, has a life, and that this is an individual life which is recorded with precision and care, and which life depends not merely on efflux of time but on flying hours as well, will understand. In effect, it means that each key component on each aircraft has to be tracked; in addition, if a pilot or the maintenance crew have even the slightest shade of doubt about the operational capability of a part, they have the authority to ground the craft. Now add diverse suppliers, different supply agreements, obsolescence due to use of the craft well beyond the scheduled life, thanks to failure to procure in time, the dispersed bases to which parts have to flow, the fewer, but still dispersed maintenance focal points, the rear echelon bases, and the handful of HAL factories authorised to carry out major overhaul, and we might begin to understand a fraction of the problem.

While the second driver is convincing, it is not overwhelming; we can manage, with the expenditure of additional effort, and nothing has actually come to a halt. The first one is a nightmare

Why cant pvt sector take the initiative themselves, why waiting for govt ? at least come up with a decent uav.

A better model is 'productionising' public sector designs and blueprints. These efforts are going on, and have been going on for years now. It is not appropriate to name the weapons systems, the private sector organisations and the locations.

Indian private sector lacks the capability to build any hitech weapons. Their minor contribution to many defence projects also lead to delay. For example there is no private company in India that can make a modern MBT to meet the requirements of Indian Army, a modern fighter to meet the requirements of IAF etc.

That is all pie in the sky.

It would be nice to see a good tank engine being built. Or a good radar system. Or good artillery pieces. Or a transport aircraft, a modern one, a simple work-horse, not those glamour-pusses the C130J or the C-17s.

Kiinetic the Indian private industry must chip in with smaller inputs first.

Like materials research. Chemical research. Participating with the academia etc.

They need to start funding research projects in universities. That's the starting point.

What a solid point! Precisely.

It is amazing how disconnected Indian technical institutions and Indian R&D is. Or, for that matter, Indian industry. Because we have always bought technology and our manufacturing has been concentrated on tooling and machining and setting up assembly lines and production capacity, we have been able to manufacture cheap; even cheaper now that quantitative restrictions have been removed, and it is possible to manufacture using economies of scale.

However, the weak point is linking R&D and production. There are literally thousands of ways in which young talent in engineering institutions can be given portions of project work to execute, thus closely associating them with the real-world effort as well as supplementing the scientific and technical capability within our science and defence technological institutions. Even now, it isn't too late.
 
Sanctions are just the veil HAL and indians look for to hide their incompetence.

And u use a false flag just to hide your Rants , so whats new in that:P
 
and now ? there are no issues but still show is late.

MRCA ????? why is it delayed.

Chinese are facing issues way bigger - they should have never been able to have a j-10.

time to realize truth : drdo and ada are not doing their job properly.
What do you mean by now? Google Lca tejas and see where tejas is "now".

So...you are of the opinion thet Indian and Chinese industrial bases are same? Moreover..china had a decent economy and much greater threats by the time tejas was started.
 
and how many of these are avilable ????? with the fullfillment of defense requirments ?

iaf , navy , or army nobody is really happy with the product they were promised and delivered.

reason : the incompetency of govt organization.
Are you of the opinion that India has a very mature defence industry? Or do you think before venturing into tejas project India has years and years of fighter jet developing experience or atleast technology? Or are you of the opinion that making a fighter jet is reading from a text book and implementing directly? Do you atleast know about the history of tejas? Which country's first project was a success and have an awesome export order?

Impotence of Govt?? Really? The missiles which are protecting our @s$ and not made by any MNC or it was not reverse engineered or proliferated.
 
First, nobody has noticed the initial mischief created by the wise guy who wrote the ASR for the IAF and put in that whole bloody multi-role bit all over again, as we haven't had enough grief over this already. The IAF persists in believing that one aircraft, frame, engine, avionics, radar, weapons configurations, manning, all put together, can be made to fly two roles. This is stuff and nonsense and stems from two deep-rooted fears, which have nothing - NOTHING - to do with the professional role of the IAF.

The eternal yearning for multi-role aircraft stems from a need to keep the army out of aviation. ...


Hi, that's an interesting post, but sounds also a bit contradictory, because by using multi role fighters, IAF gets rid of several different types for different roles, with different parts. The air chief even said, that if it would be possible, he would rather have less than the 4 - 5 types which are planed for the future (LCA, MMRCA, MKI, FGFA and possibly AMCA). So he also sees your 2nd point as a problem, but I don't see a real link between multi role fighters and the army.


I agree that AMCAs early aim to be a "multi role" strike fighter, similar to F35 has gone, by adding more and more features like TVC, that makes it more similar to FGFA again. I also would say that it is not needed to add another type of fighter and increase the maintenance difficulties, but all this has nothing to do with the army again. So I don't really understand why you think IAF does this because of IA.
 
It is amazing how disconnected Indian technical institutions and Indian R&D is. Or, for that matter, Indian industry. Because we have always bought technology and our manufacturing has been concentrated on tooling and machining and setting up assembly lines and production capacity, we have been able to manufacture cheap; even cheaper now that quantitative restrictions have been removed, and it is possible to manufacture using economies of scale.

How very true Mr. Shearer. It is indeed mind-boggling to know of the disconnect between what we label as 'elite' Indian educational institutions and the Industry.

Neither such educational institutions nor industry are capable of creating top-notch products within a stipulated time.

I am doing research in one such elite institution and have over the past 3 years been flabbergasted at their workings. They work with a good degree of autonomy --- and i am quite convinced that by and large autonomy is coupled with lack of accountability.

We ride piggy-bank on what has already been done --- and done a long time back --- and we still struggle to do it. It is not just a case of funding --- it has to do with the system. Extremely talented people get in --- and many gradually wither away. Blame the system --- and the people who make up the system.

Lack of opportunities means that a lot of good people leave in search of avenues where their talent is allowed to flower. The remaining can still deliver the goods, but alas...If i get the opportunity to spend a couple of years in a western nation with a sound technological base, i would definitely like to know how they ensure that the goods are delivered.

Of course there are instances of genuinely inspiring work but that is more of a exception. A lot of the work is further rendered impotent as it has poor industrial application and industry is not willing to pursue it.

As far as defence is considered, i had the opportunity to speak to a couple of guys from DRDO/BARC who came to get their Masters and PhDs. They face the same trouble. And neither are the armed forces extremely competent in specifying what they exactly require.

I can only hope that the situation improves in the next decade or so, otherwise all superpower-like dreams will be that --- just dreams.
 
India is trying to become a service economy without building a manufacturing industry base. This is why the projects are failing because of the deficiency of industry as a whole.
 
1.India is trying to become a service economy without building a manufacturing industry base.

2.This is why the projects are failing because of the deficiency of industry as a whole.

1. Interesting PoV; a couple of corrections, though.

India is already a service (agriculture? :what:) based economy without building a significant heavy and/or hi tech manufacturing industry base.

But, contrary to outside (e.g. chinese) perception, there is a solid thrust towards creating heavy and hi tech manufacturing base in India. Fueled by future growth sectors like aviation, infrastructure, agro processing, power we are laying the building blocks of the industrial capacity which will sustain future indian military might.


Also, do not harbor similar prejudices towards indian industrial capacity like the Americans used to have towards Chinese capacity to spawn "original" technology. The automobile and pharma sectors are enough to demonstrate the point.




2. Most of these "failed" projects as you term them have turned the corner and have been inducted in the forces.

As you must have seen; LCA and Arjun are not working as flame baits anymore.

Though, many people here on PDF deny the reality and are living in the past.
It kinda reminds me of the attitude Americans have on the GIJoe forums like f16 forums; trashing everything Non American as inferior technology and unreliable.

The fact is no matter how many times these people chant that "LCA and Arjun are faliures!"; these projects are steaming ahead and reaching their potential as we speak. Just like AShBM and J20 inspite of the similar chants by american ostriches!

Also, I need not remind you of the colossal failures Chinese had (Leaky Nuke Subs etc.) before earning bragging rights with projects like J-20. We will earn ours in due course!
 
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MOST of our Universities are just for name ...university is = research . Honestly i think IIT's and some private universities are sole research players in big list of university...

How we think that Private companies will be even able to develop any MBT ,UAV , FIGHTERS.... funding research at university level will generate cutting edge tech. and then we can expect private players to benefit from those tech and use them for advanced level research in military hardware systems.

Another way is private players hire brains from all over world and start what we call reverse engineering or high level research by those hired brains and come up with something dramatically unexpected !!!


BUT ALL THIS IS DREAM :angel:
 
I am not trying to flame. If you think the LCA and Arjun are successful then so be it, even though many people including your own military disagree. Yeah you can induct them to save face but it doesn't mean they pass the mark.

I am not saying India has no manufacturing. I am just saying the manufacturing in India is just not big and advanced. India is running out of skilled workers like electricians even with such limited industrial development, and that says a lot about the deficiency. This inevitably affects your defence industry.

1. Interesting PoV; a couple of corrections, though.

India is already a service (agriculture? :what:) based economy without building a significant heavy and/or hi tech manufacturing industry base.

But, contrary to outside (e.g. chinese) perception, there is a solid thrust towards creating heavy and hi tech manufacturing base in India. Fueled by future growth sectors like aviation, infrastructure, agro processing, power we are laying the building blocks of the industrial capacity which will sustain future indian military might.


Also, do not harbor similar prejudices towards indian industrial capacity like the Americans used to have towards Chinese capacity to spawn "original" technology. The automobile and pharma sectors are enough to demonstrate the point.




2. Most of these "failed" projects as you term them have turned the corner and have been inducted in the forces.

As you must have seen; LCA and Arjun are not working as flame baits anymore.

Though, many people here on PDF deny the reality and are living in the past.
It kinda reminds me of the attitude Americans have on the GIJoe forums like f16 forums; trashing everything Non American as inferior technology and unreliable.

The fact is no matter how many times these people chant that "LCA and Arjun are faliures!"; these projects are steaming ahead and reaching their potential as we speak. Just like AShBM and J20 inspite of the similar chants by american ostriches!

Also, I need not remind you of the colossal failures Chinese had (Leaky Nuke Subs etc.) before earning bragging rights with projects like J-20. We will earn ours in due course!
 
I am not saying India has no manufacturing. I am just saying the manufacturing in India is just not big and advanced.
You are right. But you should also see that both LCA and Arjun are first of its kind in our indigenous efforts. LCA is our first fighter and Arjun is our first MBT. They have learned a lot and i think we should wait for mk2 of both machines.

Through offsets we are trying to fill the gap but we are not getting what we expected but still we are getting some manufacturing bases for some of the components.

Delay in MMRCA would also effect our AMCA as some critical technology could have helped us. I think the work on our AMCA will only start after 2013-2014 when we will gain some knowledge from FGFA project. But seriously, the AMCA project depends on the success of FGFA and what we will lean from it and how much we can learn from it.
 
Are you of the opinion that India has a very mature defence industry? Or do you think before venturing into tejas project India has years and years of fighter jet developing experience or atleast technology? Or are you of the opinion that making a fighter jet is reading from a text book and implementing directly? Do you atleast know about the history of tejas? Which country's first project was a success and have an awesome export order?

Impotence of Govt?? Really? The missiles which are protecting our @s$ and not made by any MNC or it was not reverse engineered or proliferated.
YOU ARE an brainwashed patriotic , the missile and products are nowhere close to the quality promised by funding and brain work indian possess.

sitting in your living room wont say much about it .most of the drdo people own the drdo- they take more than 200 days of holidays.

the product that are designed are outsourced and made by their own family member's factory-so delay and quality is taken care of.

i dont give two hoot about your - patriotic gibberish - people are paying lot of tax and it should be productive.
 

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