MC-21 from Russia Shows Why Russia is a Major Contender in Aviation

[Bilal9]

Irkut in Russia uses state of the art processes to fabricate airliners like MS-21

Recently, the wing of the MS-21 was converted to composite instead of metal and uses the new PD-14 engines from Progress (formerly known as Lotarev)

Members from Russia please post latest news and videos on this exciting project.

Also of interest is the new powerplant of Progress PD-8 for the SSJ-100 and SSJ-130. Maybe we can open a separate thread on that.

 

[Skull and Bones]

Two of the major expenses for any airline is the maintenance infrastructure for its fleet and providing training to its pilots on the platforms. It will be near impossible to convert airlines already hooked to Airbus/Boeing to any other platforms in a free market economy. Japan learnt it in a hard way with its Mitsubishi regional jet.

China and Russia can subsidize its homegrown jets for its regional airlines.

 

[jhungary]

Two of the major expenses for any airline is the maintenance infrastructure for its fleet and providing training to its pilots on the platforms. It will be near impossible to convert airlines already hooked to Airbus/Boeing to any other platforms in a free market economy. Japan learnt it in a hard way with its Mitsubishi regional jet.

China and Russia can subsidize its homegrown jets for its regional airlines.

The problem is that the world have been so accustomed to fixing either Airbus or Boeing, it's not profitable to operate a seperate maintenance line staff with Engineer and Technician to service the new jet. That's because you can't just put it over a given area, you would have to separate it into different region hub and every one of those have the capability to fix anything.

Subsidising is one thing, where do you find enough mechanic and technician to staff those maintenance is another issue, the new guy getting the job is easy, you train them from ground up with Russia and Chinese jet, but you still need to have senior mechanic to sign off work, which mean at some point you will need to poach some of those current engineers to work in senior role. And they don't like to switch and recertify their qualification. My brother was a certified tech for RR Trent engine, it took him 2 years and 4 months in France to be recertify with CFM.

On the other hand, Russian MC-21 is most likely not going to see the end of day now that with the West Sanction and most Russian regional airline would probably go with C919 instead of MC-21.

 

[Skull and Bones]

The problem is that the world have been so accustomed to fixing either Airbus or Boeing, it's not profitable to operate a seperate maintenance line staff with Engineer and Technician to service the new jet. That's because you can't just put it over a given area, you would have to separate it into different region hub and every one of those have the capability to fix anything.

Subsidising is one thing, where do you find enough mechanic and technician to staff those maintenance is another issue, the new guy getting the job is easy, you train them from ground up with Russia and Chinese jet, but you still need to have senior mechanic to sign off work, which mean at some point you will need to poach some of those current engineers to work in senior role. And they don't like to switch and recertify their qualification. My brother was a certified tech for RR Trent engine, it took him 2 years and 4 months in France to be recertify with CFM.

On the other hand, Russian MC-21 is most likely not going to see the end of day now that with the West Sanction and most Russian regional airline would probably go with C919 instead of MC-21.

There is a good MBA case study on Indigo and SpiceJet in Indian business school. Both being in the budget airline category, Indigo makes much higher profit than SpiceJet. Once of the argument was Indigo has its entire fleet based on Airbus, while SpiceJet has a mix of Airbus/Boeing/Others, hence increasing its maintenance cost, and pilot/support staff training.

 

[jhungary]

There is a good MBA case study on Indigo and SpiceJet in Indian business school. Both being in the budget airline category, Indigo makes much higher profit than SpiceJet. Once of the argument was Indigo has its entire fleet based on Airbus, while SpiceJet has a mix of Airbus/Boeing/Others, hence increasing its maintenance cost, and pilot/support staff training.

A lot more than that, if you stick with a single aircraft manufacturer, everything you do is interchangeable, which mean there are a lot of leeway into downtime, which is going to safe you money. You don't need to wait for a crew that fly a different aircraft when you have to put yours in a shop, you can just jump into another aircraft or have another crew jump into yours if yours are the one that just got out of a shop..

 

[VCheng]

Irkut in Russia uses state of the art processes to fabricate airliners like MS-21

After the great success of the Sukhoi SuperJet .......




Oh wait.

 

[Skull and Bones]

After the great success of the Sukhoi SuperJet .......




Oh wait.

As per Wiki, they still managed to make 172 odd jets. Fairly successful in its own way.

 

[VCheng]

As per Wiki, they still managed to make 172 odd jets. Fairly successful in its own way.

Sure, but those kind of numbers are for a two-bit fringe player, not a major contender.

 

[serenity]

Sukhoi jet and MC-21 are actually both quite advanced designs particularly for its wings.

To even have a chance at getting significant orders, any newcomers to medium range narrow body commercial aviation to even take some market share from Boeing and Airbus need to really have a working captive market. Russia is much less able to do this than China due to vast difference in population size and transportation demand but China has more alternatives to Russia which eases its favor. Many travelers may pick high speed rail over plane where suitable. Russia is also a much larger geography which restricts alternatives and those work in the favor of aviation and help with the captive market.

 

[Hack-Hook]

As per Wiki, they still managed to make 172 odd jets. Fairly successful in its own way.

look at this
Net orders, produced, and deliveries[141][142]

Year	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015	2016	2017	2018	2019	2020	Total
Net orders	30	0	0	0	15	0	22	0	2	13	58	28	28	106	24	59[143]	385
Produced	—​		1	3	1	2	5	12	24	36	18	19	33	24	18	11	207
Deliveries	—​						5	8	14	27	21	21	25	28	6	12	167

the number of delivered reduced after 2018
Russia have problem sourcing component for the aircraft and also every body who bought it have problem with maintenance

Yamal Airlines, the second-largest Russian SSJ operator, announced the cancellation of its order for 10 further SSJs, citing high servicing costs.[114] Of 30–40 SSJs owned by Aeroflot, only 10 are reportedly usable at a time due to maintenance problems.

A National Disappointment: What Went Wrong With the Sukhoi Superjet 100 - The Moscow Times

Opinion | On the night of May 5, a Sukhoi Superjet 100 operated by Russia’s national carrier Aeroflot took off from Moscow heading for Murmansk, only to return to the airport about 30 minutes later, where it made a hard emergency landing with full fuel tanks, which caused a fire that claimed the...

www.themoscowtimes.com

 

[Bilal9]

Two of the major expenses for any airline is the maintenance infrastructure for its fleet and providing training to its pilots on the platforms. It will be near impossible to convert airlines already hooked to Airbus/Boeing to any other platforms in a free market economy. Japan learnt it in a hard way with its Mitsubishi regional jet.

China and Russia can subsidize its homegrown jets for its regional airlines.

That is exactly it. The MS-21 and the SSJ-100/130 are VERY MODERN regional airliners. MS-21 is the analogue for A320/B737 series and SSJ-100 is the analogue for A220/Embraer E170 NG series. I have been watching these series develop from the get go and they have benefitted from state patronage and incremental improvements by far.

These two Russian platforms are vastly improved sophisticated machines and aren't the Ilyushins, Antonovs and Tupolevs of yesteryear.

New entrants in aviation are great to bring prices down and bust the monopoly that Boeing and Airbus have been enjoying. Russians are already working on expanding their support network. They know that they have a problem with this. But the average MS 21 is cheaper than a B737 by 30%. How is anyone going to ignore that?

The MODERN, efficient and quiet engines being developed by Progress for these in Russia (FADEC equipped PD-14, PD-8 and PD-39) will also supply Chinese airliner demand in addition to Russia's own demand. C929 in China is being developed with Russian help. Chinese aviation market is NOT small.

There are plenty of takers in Russia. China and other South American and African countries for these types. Mexico and Cuba are already large scale customers for Russian Jets. So is Belgium, Ireland and some other EU countries.

SSJ-100 for Brussels Airlines in Belgium

Interjet SSJ-100 in Mexico, they used to operate it to Texas (Dallas) routinely from Mexico. The engines shown will be replaced by PD-8 in the newer version of the SSJ 100 and 130.

IL-96 for Cubana which they use for intercontinental flights. These engines will be replaced by PD-14 in the newer IL-96 version. PD-14 and PD-8 series will replace all older Russian airliner platforms including TU-204 and TU-214.

 

[Abu Shaleh Rumi]

How Russians are going to produce the required electronics for these aircrafts? Russians don't have electronics industry and with western sanctions they can't buy from outside...

 

[Hack-Hook]

Interjet SSJ-100 in Mexico, they used to operate it to Texas (Dallas) routinely from Mexico

The airline went bankrupt and they had plan to return the jets to sukhoi for their debt
You can argue the jet partly was responsible for bankruptcy. As hLf it's fleet was usually unavailable because of lack of spares

SSJ-100 for Brussels Airlines in Belgium

Had to retire the jet in less than two years because there was no spare

https://simpleflying.com/brussels-airlines-sj100/

 

[Ahmadbhutta01]

None of us would want to travel in Russian commercial jet we all love our lives despite all the hatred for west boeing and Airbus have the most safety and least accidents

 

[Bilal9]

Sure, but those kind of numbers are for a two-bit fringe player, not a major contender.

They are not trying to be anything major globally, just import substitution is fine for now. Two-bit is a strong word. Judge the company without bias. Just because they are in Russia takes nothing away from their quality. SSJ 100 came along to replace Yak 40 and 42 tri-jets among other things. These regional airliner examples are getting long in the tooth and internally SSJ-100 will replace these.

Yak 42

Yak 40

Global success for SSJ-100 and MS-21 can come later - which in my opinion will definitely follow.

These products are far more sophisticated in technicality and operation and are as good, if not better - than Western products while priced 33% lower than Western ones.

Russia (and even Eastern EU) aviation scenario is interesting and unlike the rest of the planet. Russia wants to be self reliant which is fine.

But the main point is - SSJ-100 won't take a back seat to any A220 or E170 series in its category. It is technically as sophisticated as anything flying right now in its MTOW weight class.

And as always, they will prefer local products as opposed to sourcing sanction-ridden foreign products. They have the capability to do this.

Look at the other thread,

Aeroflot Orders 339 Russian-Built Planes

https://onemileatatime.com/news/aeroflot-orders-russian-planes/ Aeroflot has just placed its largest aircraft order ever, and it’s entirely for Russian-built planes. Aeroflot refreshing fleet with Russian planes Aeroflot Group and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) have signed an agreement for...

defence.pk

The airline went bankrupt and they had plan to return the jets to sukhoi for their debt
You can argue the jet partly was responsible for bankruptcy. As hLf it's fleet was usually unavailable because of lack of spares


Had to retire the jet in less than two years because there was no spare

https://simpleflying.com/brussels-airlines-sj100/

Yeah I agree spares support and servicing/maintenance is the achilles heel for Russian airliners.

How Russians are going to produce the required electronics for these aircrafts? Russians don't have electronics industry and with western sanctions they can't buy from outside...

That is not true.

Russians have always manufactured their own avionics.

You can Google and find out.