Massive Foreign Aid to India Continues

[RiazHaq]

^^^^ In reply to your post Riaz,

Riaz, Let me take the first example of Japanese "aid" of 5 Billion. The only place in the article where the total amount Japan has allocated to war torn Iraq is presented as aid is this statement.



A soft loan in an anarchy after the war is as good as aid. No government will ever vow to repay the $3.5 billion that is supposed to come as soft loans immediately after a bitter war.

Facts :



Japan from the start never expected the soft loan to be paid back and hence calling it aid suffices.

The second example you have quoted has not mentioned the word aid in any part of the text !!!!

ODA = Official Development Assistance
Loan / Soft loan is the main theme of the article.

Now , the third example about Pakistan, I will let you use your discretion.

Yet again, Mr. Riaz, you have not provided an answer that equates Aid to Soft loan.

As they say, you can only take a horse to the water, but can't make him drink.

You are clearly engaging in a game of semantics.

I have tried to teach you, but I can't make you learn that

ODA=AID= Mostly Soft loans+ Small Grants

 

[RiazHaq]

the most acceptable definition is not necessarily the most correct one.



If you read my post, that's exactly what I have said. However just a number at a point in time is not a good indicator. You need to watch the trend. On hunger index over last 20 years, India has reduced this % by 25% (from 32% to 24%) where as Pakistan has managed a mere 15% reduction in the same period(24.7% to 21%)

Also dont forget that Pakistan has a higher percentage of undernourished citizens than India and unlike India, this number has gone up over last 20 years...



So you found an index where Pakistan does better than India. Good.. I have shown you atleast 5 where India does better..Now dont say this index is the best..


China is anyway at this time in a different league..

I agree that China is in a different league.

On South Asia, I have given you not one, but three different indicators, one each from UNDP ( population below $1.25 a day), World Hunger Project (World Hunger Index), and Poverty And Hunger Index, each showing Pakistan doing better than India in terms of the very basic measures of poverty and hunger.

If you don't want to accept these, it's your prerogative.

All I can say is that "There is none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE".

 

[ramu]

As they say, you can only take a horse to the water, but can't make him drink.

You are clearly engaging in a game of semantics.

I have tried to teach you, but I can't make you learn that

ODA=AID= Mostly Soft loans+ Small Grants

Please don't : teach yourself.

Let us say you borrow an amount from me and I expect it to be paid back. Is that not different from you begging the same amount from me ? Do I expect alms to be given back ? If you consider both the same then suit yourself.

 

[karan.1970]

I agree that China is in a different league.

On South Asia, I have given you not one, but three different indicators, one each from UNDP ( population below $1.25 a day), World Hunger Project (World Hunger Index), and Poverty And Hunger Index, each showing Pakistan doing better than India in terms of the very basic measures of poverty and hunger.

If you don't want to accept these, it's your prerogative.

All I can say is that "There is none so blind as those who WILL NOT SEE".

Dude.. its a figure of speech.. dont take it literally.. If you want to do a **** measuring contest on who can score better on indices and stats, here goes

Basic Stats where India does better

PER Capita GDP OER
PER Capita GDP PPP
GDP growth rate
Employment rate
literacy rate
Infant survival rate
Inflation control
Foreign reserves to External debt
Per capital Aid
Emigration ratio
.
...

.....

Indices where India does better

Human Development Index (UN)
Human Poverty Index (UN)
The Gender Related Development Index (UN)
Financial Development Index (WEF )
WEF Global Competitiveness Index (WEF )
Credit Rating (S&P and Moody's)

And both of us can go about finding more of these. But you know and I know that we will find more with India coming out on top

 

[RiazHaq]

Dude.. its a figure of speech.. dont take it literally.. If you want to do a **** measuring contest on who can score better on indices and stats, here goes

Basic Stats where India does better

PER Capita GDP OER
PER Capita GDP PPP
GDP growth rate
Employment rate
literacy rate
Infant survival rate
Inflation control
Foreign reserves to External debt
Per capital Aid
Emigration ratio
.
...

.....

Indices where India does better

Human Development Index (UN)
Human Poverty Index (UN)
The Gender Related Development Index (UN)
Financial Development Index (WEF )
WEF Global Competitiveness Index (WEF )
Credit Rating (S&P and Moody's)

And both of us can go about finding more of these. But you know and I know that we will find more with India coming out on top

It's easy to contrive all kinds of indices and measures that have no relevance to the average Indian or Pakistani, or for that matter, the vast majority of humanity.

Ask any social scientist (such a Abraham Maslow), and you'll larn that there is nothing more basic than food, clothing, shelter and hygiene. On these basics, Pakistan does a lot better than India, with still a very long way go toward Nirvana.

1. Food:

Food is the most basic necessity of all. In terms of being better fed, Pakistanis consume significantly more dairy products, sugar, wheat, meat, eggs and poultry on a per capita basis than Indians, according to FAO data. Average Pakistani gets about 50% of daily calories from non-food-grain sources versus 33% for average Indians.

There is widespread hunger and malnutrition in all parts of India. India ranks 66th on the 2008 Global Hunger Index of 88 countries while Pakistan is slightly better at 61 and Bangladesh slightly worse at 70. The first India State Hunger Index (Ishi) report in 2008 found that Madhya Pradesh had the most severe level of hunger in India, comparable to Chad and Ethiopia. Four states — Punjab, Kerala, Haryana and Assam — fell in the 'serious' category. "Affluent" Gujarat, 13th on the Indian list is below Haiti, ranked 69. The authors said India's poor performance was primarily due to its relatively high levels of child malnutrition and under-nourishment resulting from calorie deficient diets.

Last year, Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed acknowledged that India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement.

Speaking at a conference on "Malnutrition an emergency: what it costs the nation", she said even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during interactions with the Planning Commission has described malnourishment as the "blackest mark".

"I should not compare. But countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka are better," she said. The conference was organized last year by the Confederation of Indian Industry and the Ministry of Development of Northeastern Region.

According to India's Family Health Survey, almost 46 percent of children under the age of three are undernourished - an improvement of just one percent in the last seven years. This is only a shade better than Sub-Saharan Africa where about 35 percent of children are malnourished.

India has recently been described as a "nutritional weakling" by a British report.

2. Clothing:

According to Werner International, Pakistan's per capita consumption of textile fibers is about 4 Kg versus 2.8 Kg for India. Global average is 6.8 Kg and the industrialized countries' average consumption is 17 Kg per person per per year.

3. Shelter:

There is widespread homelessness in India, with a population 7 times larger than Pakistan's, with the urgent need for 72 million housing units. Pakistan, too, has a housing crisis and needs about 7 million additional housing units, according to the data presented at the World Bank Regional Conference on Housing last year.

4. Sanitation:

India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.

Lizette Burgers, chief of water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, recently said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia. A former Indian minister Mr Raghuvansh Prasad Singh told the BBC that more than 65% of India's rural population defecated in the open, along roadsides, railway tracks and fields, generating huge amounts of excrement every day.

As an example, let's compare India's largest slum Dharavi with Pakistan's Orangi Town. The fact is that Orangi is nothing like Dharavi in terms of the quality of its housing or the services available to its residents. While Dharavi has only one toilet per 1440 residents and most of its residents use Mahim Creek, a local river, for urination and defecation, Orangi has an elaborate sanitation system built by its citizens. Under Orangi Pilot Project's guidance, between 1981 and 1993 Orangi residents installed sewers serving 72,070 of 94,122 houses. To achieve this, community members spent more than US$2 million of their own money, and OPP invested about US$150,000 in research and extension of new technologies. Orangi pilot project has been admired widely for its work with urban poor.

5. Healthcare:

A basic indicator of healthcare is access to physicians. There are 80 doctors per 100,000 population in Pakistan versus 60 in India, according to the World Health Organization. For comparison with the developed world, the US and Europe have over 250 physicians per 100,000 people. UNDP recently reported that life expectancy at birth in Pakistan is 66.2 years versus India's 63.4 years.

Access to healhcare in South Asia, particularly due to the wide gender gap, presents a huge challenge, and it requires greater focus to ensure improvement in human resources. Though the life expectancy has increased to 66.2 years in Pakistan and 63.4 years in India, it is still low relative to the rest of the world. The infant mortality rate remains stubbornly high, particular in Pakistan, though it has come down down from 76 per 1000 live births in 2003 to 65 in 2009. With 320 mothers dying per 100,000 live births in Pakistan and 450 in India, the maternal mortality rate in South Asia is very high, according to UNICEF.

6. Education:

India's literacy rate of 61% is well ahead of Pakistan's 50% rate. In higher education, six Indian universities have made the list of the top 400 universities published by Times Higher Education Supplement this year. Only one Pakistani university was considered worthy of such honor.

Pakistan has consistently scored lower on the HDI sub-index on education than its overall HDI index. It is obvious from the UNDP report and other sources that Pakistan's dismal record in enrolling and educating its young people, particularly girls, stands in the way of any significant positive development in the nation. The recent announcement of a new education policy that calls for more than doubling the education spending from about 3% to 7% of GDP is a step in the right direction. However, money alone will not solve the deep-seated problems of poor access to education, rampant corruption and the ghost schools that only exist on paper, that have simply lined the pockets of corrupt politicians and officials. Any additional money allocated must be part of a broader push for transparent and effective delivery of useful education to save the people from the curses of poverty, ignorance and extremism which are seriously hurting the nation.

In spite of deficiency in education, how is it that Pakistanis can maintain better standards of living in terms of food, clothing, shelter, sanitation and healthcare than their neighbor India? The first answer is that, according to the 2009 UN Human and Income Poverty Report, the people living under $1.25 a day in India is 41.6 percent, about twice as much as Pakistan's 22.6 percent. The second answer can be found in the fact that Pakistanis' real per capita incomes are actually higher than reported by various agencies. The most recent real per capita income data was calculated and reported by Asian Development Bank based on a detailed study of a list of around 800 household and nonhousehold products in 2005 and early 2006 to compare real purchasing power for ADB's trans-national income comparison program (ICP). The ICP concluded that Pakistan had the highest per capita income at HK$ 13,528 among the largest nations in South Asia. It reported India’s per capita as HK $12,090.

Conclusion:

Clearly, the status of an average Indian is not only worse than an average Pakistani's, the abject deprivation in India is comparable to the nations in sub-Saharan Africa. However, Pakistanis do need to worry about their woefully inadequate state of education and literacy. They must find a way to develop the skills, grow the economy and create opportunities for their growing young population. As Pakistan's former finance minister Salman Shah recently told the wall Street Journal, "Pakistan has to be part of globalization or you end up with Talibanization. Until we put these (Pakistan's) young people into industrialization and services, and off-farm work, they will drift into this negative extremism; there is nothing worse than not having a job." Unless Pakistanis heed Shah's advice, there is real danger that Pakistan will slip into total chaos and violence, endangering the entire nation in the foreseeable future.

To summarize, this post has discussed six different indicators of life in any nation: Availability of food, clothing, shelter, sanitation, health care and education. The published data that I have shared with you shows that PAKISTAN IS AHEAD OF INDIA IN FIVE OF THE SIX INDICATORS. In education, however, Pakistan is marginally behind India, which itself suffers from low levels of literacy and wide gender gap resulting in very poor showing on the UNDP HDI this year, and in prior years. In spite of heavy visa restrictions and quotas imposed by many nations around the world, about a million Indians manage to leave India in search of a better life. In fact, India dropped six places on the world rankings from a low of 128 to an even lower 134. Unfortunately, Pakistan has also slipped three ranks on the list, down from 138 to 141, mainly due to its deficit in literacy and gender discrimination.

Haq's Musings: Food, Clothing and Shelter in India and Pakistan

Here is an FAO site where you can see per capita consumption of basic foods an compare India and Pakistan with the rest of the world, particularly on basic carbs (grains) vs protein (dairy, eggs etc):

FAOSTAT

 

[ramu]

^^^

Why don't you choose the metrics that best suits you and then argue. OK, you have your metrics and we all know what is the truth. I will rely on a qualified team that has come up with an index called the Human Development Index

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a composite statistic used as an index to rank countries by level of "human development" and separate developed (high development), developing (middle development), and underdeveloped (low development) countries. The statistic is composed from statistics for Life Expectancy, Education, and GDP collected at the national level.

 

[ramu]

It's easy to contrive all kinds of indices and measures that have no relevance to the average Indian or Pakistani, or for that matter, the vast majority of humanity.

Yes I can see that you are doing that well.

Ask any social scientist (such a Abraham Maslow), and you'll larn that there is nothing more basic than food, clothing, shelter and hygiene. On these basics, Pakistan does a lot better than India, with still a very long way go toward Nirvana.

Per capita income in India as admitted by you is clearly greater than Pakistan. In India inflation in the past 4 years has been much less than the average inflation in Pakistan. India does not have a shortage of the bare essentials. However, India has disproportionate distribution of wealth and the story of India's growth still requires to seep into its bottom of the pyramid.

1. Food:

Food is the most basic necessity of all. In terms of being better fed, Pakistanis consume significantly more dairy products, sugar, wheat, meat, eggs and poultry on a per capita basis than Indians, according to FAO data. Average Pakistani gets about 50% of daily calories from non-food-grain sources versus 33% for average Indians.

There is widespread hunger and malnutrition in all parts of India. India ranks 66th on the 2008 Global Hunger Index of 88 countries while Pakistan is slightly better at 61 and Bangladesh slightly worse at 70. The first India State Hunger Index (Ishi) report in 2008 found that Madhya Pradesh had the most severe level of hunger in India, comparable to Chad and Ethiopia. Four states — Punjab, Kerala, Haryana and Assam — fell in the 'serious' category. "Affluent" Gujarat, 13th on the Indian list is below Haiti, ranked 69. The authors said India's poor performance was primarily due to its relatively high levels of child malnutrition and under-nourishment resulting from calorie deficient diets.

Last year, Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed acknowledged that India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement.

Speaking at a conference on "Malnutrition an emergency: what it costs the nation", she said even Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during interactions with the Planning Commission has described malnourishment as the "blackest mark".

"I should not compare. But countries like Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka are better," she said. The conference was organized last year by the Confederation of Indian Industry and the Ministry of Development of Northeastern Region.

According to India's Family Health Survey, almost 46 percent of children under the age of three are undernourished - an improvement of just one percent in the last seven years. This is only a shade better than Sub-Saharan Africa where about 35 percent of children are malnourished.

India has recently been described as a "nutritional weakling" by a British report.

Case of rant, copy & paste that requires no introduction.

2. Clothing:

According to Werner International, Pakistan's per capita consumption of textile fibers is about 4 Kg versus 2.8 Kg for India. Global average is 6.8 Kg and the industrialized countries' average consumption is 17 Kg per person per per year.

Pakistan is further up north compared to India. Most parts of India remains warm and the weather is balanced. States that have a cold weather tend to consume more textiles and especially wool that s heavier compared to cotton or synthetic material.

3. Shelter:

There is widespread homelessness in India, with a population 7 times larger than Pakistan's, with the urgent need for 72 million housing units. Pakistan, too, has a housing crisis and needs about 7 million additional housing units, according to the data presented at the World Bank Regional Conference on Housing last year.

72 miilion house. That is a great add for a bank that offers housing loan. Indians save about 30% of their income and the housing market in India is booming with big players like TATA getting into economic housing segment. Please read the town established in Gujrat after the terrible earth quake. Compare and contrast with the earth quake in Pak occupied Kashmir.

4. Sanitation:

India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.

On one hand you talk about India as a emerging economic power and on the other you talk of sanitation. It clearly highlights my explanation about the monetary imbalance in the country. This is a known problem and India is gearing to solve the issue.

Lizette Burgers, chief of water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, recently said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia. A former Indian minister Mr Raghuvansh Prasad Singh told the BBC that more than 65% of India's rural population defecated in the open, along roadsides, railway tracks and fields, generating huge amounts of excrement every day.

Sorry state of affairs in the 1990's.

As an example, let's compare India's largest slum Dharavi with Pakistan's Orangi Town. The fact is that Orangi is nothing like Dharavi in terms of the quality of its housing or the services available to its residents. While Dharavi has only one toilet per 1440 residents and most of its residents use Mahim Creek, a local river, for urination and defecation, Orangi has an elaborate sanitation system built by its citizens. Under Orangi Pilot Project's guidance, between 1981 and 1993 Orangi residents installed sewers serving 72,070 of 94,122 houses. To achieve this, community members spent more than US$2 million of their own money, and OPP invested about US$150,000 in research and extension of new technologies. Orangi pilot project has been admired widely for its work with urban poor.

Excellent achievement by Oragni. Just as Orangi does not represent Pakistan, Dharavi does not represent India.

5. Healthcare:

A basic indicator of healthcare is access to physicians. There are 80 doctors per 100,000 population in Pakistan versus 60 in India, according to the World Health Organization. For comparison with the developed world, the US and Europe have over 250 physicians per 100,000 people. UNDP recently reported that life expectancy at birth in Pakistan is 66.2 years versus India's 63.4 years.

80 : 60 . Great . Now that is so different.

Access to healhcare in South Asia, particularly due to the wide gender gap, presents a huge challenge, and it requires greater focus to ensure improvement in human resources. Though the life expectancy has increased to 66.2 years in Pakistan and 63.4 years in India, it is still low relative to the rest of the world. The infant mortality rate remains stubbornly high, particular in Pakistan, though it has come down down from 76 per 1000 live births in 2003 to 65 in 2009. With 320 mothers dying per 100,000 live births in Pakistan and 450 in India, the maternal mortality rate in South Asia is very high, according to UNICEF.

Gender inequality in Pakistan ... let me not go there.
About your other metrics, no recent metrics is available and you are quoting the last known data. So hold your horses as the next census in India will finish in 2011 March.

6. Education:

India's literacy rate of 61% is well ahead of Pakistan's 50% rate. In higher education, six Indian universities have made the list of the top 400 universities published by Times Higher Education Supplement this year. Only one Pakistani university was considered worthy of such honor.

Pakistan has consistently scored lower on the HDI sub-index on education than its overall HDI index. It is obvious from the UNDP report and other sources that Pakistan's dismal record in enrolling and educating its young people, particularly girls, stands in the way of any significant positive development in the nation. The recent announcement of a new education policy that calls for more than doubling the education spending from about 3% to 7% of GDP is a step in the right direction. However, money alone will not solve the deep-seated problems of poor access to education, rampant corruption and the ghost schools that only exist on paper, that have simply lined the pockets of corrupt politicians and officials. Any additional money allocated must be part of a broader push for transparent and effective delivery of useful education to save the people from the curses of poverty, ignorance and extremism which are seriously hurting the nation.

When you highlight problems with Pakistan you seem to show light at the end of the tunnel but make it sound hopeless for India. I know you are playing to your audience. carry on.

In spite of deficiency in education, how is it that Pakistanis can maintain better standards of living in terms of food, clothing, shelter, sanitation and healthcare than their neighbor India? The first answer is that, according to the 2009 UN Human and Income Poverty Report, the people living under $1.25 a day in India is 41.6 percent, about twice as much as Pakistan's 22.6 percent. The second answer can be found in the fact that Pakistanis' real per capita incomes are actually higher than reported by various agencies. The most recent real per capita income data was calculated and reported by Asian Development Bank based on a detailed study of a list of around 800 household and nonhousehold products in 2005 and early 2006 to compare real purchasing power for ADB's trans-national income comparison program (ICP). The ICP concluded that Pakistan had the highest per capita income at HK$ 13,528 among the largest nations in South Asia. It reported India’s per capita as HK $12,090.

Conclusion:
Clearly, the status of an average Indian is not only worse than an average Pakistani's, the abject deprivation in India is comparable to the nations in sub-Saharan Africa. However, Pakistanis do need to worry about their woefully inadequate state of education and literacy. They must find a way to develop the skills, grow the economy and create opportunities for their growing young population. As Pakistan's former finance minister Salman Shah recently told the wall Street Journal, "Pakistan has to be part of globalization or you end up with Talibanization. Until we put these (Pakistan's) young people into industrialization and services, and off-farm work, they will drift into this negative extremism; there is nothing worse than not having a job." Unless Pakistanis heed Shah's advice, there is real danger that Pakistan will slip into total chaos and violence, endangering the entire nation in the foreseeable future.

Somehow I fail to get an understanding of how the conclusion can be so remote from the main text. In every index you have compared, India and Pakistan seem to be doing badly and as per your analysis, Pakistan is doing marginally better. But suddenly India is compared to Africa but Pakistan has no such albatross but a blue print for the future... Riaz, could I expect anything better ?

To summarize, this post has discussed six different indicators of life in any nation: Availability of food, clothing, shelter, sanitation, health care and education. The published data that I have shared with you shows that PAKISTAN IS AHEAD OF INDIA IN FIVE OF THE SIX INDICATORS. In education, however, Pakistan is marginally behind India, which itself suffers from low levels of literacy and wide gender gap resulting in very poor showing on the UNDP HDI this year, and in prior years. In spite of heavy visa restrictions and quotas imposed by many nations around the world, about a million Indians manage to leave India in search of a better life. In fact, India dropped six places on the world rankings from a low of 128 to an even lower 134. Unfortunately, Pakistan has also slipped three ranks on the list, down from 138 to 141, mainly due to its deficit in literacy and gender discrimination.

7th Indicator : Human development Index
8th Indicator : Per capita income as calculated by rational economists and not irrational haq.

9th Indicator : unemployment figures

 

[Cityboy]

Thanks Riazhaq. .ur threads hv changd my view about pakistan. .going thrnugh ur thread ,one can easily conclude that pakistan is economicaly,technologycaly and politicaly superior than india. . And pakistan just need to improve its media coverage so let the world know that pakistan is shining...and not a third word country anymore.. In fact pakistan should start giving massive Billion dollar aids to other third world country for being so much economicaly sound..

 

[RiazHaq]

karan and ramu:

First, let me compliment both of you on your spirited defense of India in the face of poor social indicators with respect to basics such as food, clothing, housing and sanitation. I admire you for your persistence, and the quality of some of the research you do and the arguments you make when challenged.

Second, let me try and dissect the contents of this and other similar threads and summarize my thoughts thus far.

As an Indian writer Anupam Mukerji wrote in an article for Fast Company, India consists of "islands of prosperity" in a " sea of poverty".

Pakistan has a similar situation, except that the islands are bigger and less prosperous, and the sea of poverty is smaller and generally less poor than in India. The rich-poor gap in Pakistan, as measured by Gini Index, is significant, with India at 36, and Pakistan at 30.

Having said that, let me argue that both India and Pakistan have very poor social indicators relative to the rest of the world. Both have a long way to go.

Let me also say that, under the current circumstances, India is more likely to make greater progress in improving its social indicators than Pakistan over the coming years.

Occasionally, I publish guest post from knowledgeable writers from South Asia on my blogs. A number of Indian authors have published on my blog during the last year on subjects related to the human conditions in South Asia.

I invite you both to write guest posts for my blog, sharing your research and data and offering arguments that I do not necessarily have to agree with. It'll make for a healthy debate on issues that matter to both Indians and Pakistanis.

 

[naved_kam]

For all the deniers of the fact that India continues to receive massive foreign aid, here is an excerpt from the link you provided:



India giving food aid seems to be akin to a shoemaker's children having no shoes to wear.

India – Aid Recipient or Donor? | The Discomfort Zone

Though I had planned to ignore you, but your response and my urge to share this information with my mates here on this forum made me change my mind and so I used up another 30 mins of my time on this subject.

Your habit of selective quoting and tunnel vision did not let you grasp the total import of the article that I quoted yesterday. But at least you were smart enough to now do away with the BS you added on account of the Mumbai slums scenario in your original post.

I am going to post 3 links below. And I want you to read them.

I already explained to you yesterday the concept of "Aids & Grants and the net effect" yesterday. So even if you did not understand, I will not waste my time again.

I also expalined to you that aids are loans disbursed to the donee for projects for which they do not want to allocate their own funds / projects that are relatively lower priority for them.

LOANS ARE NOT BAD/ THEY DO NOT COME FREE, THEY HAVE TO BE PAID BACK. SO THE LENDER IS NOT MAKING A DONATION = THEY ARE INVESTING FOR MONETARY / GOODWILL RETURNS. (GOODWILL = SEVERAL HUNDRED PERCENT RETURNS OVER FORESEEABLE HORIZON) Comprende.......

Now, I want to explain the next position to you w.r.t the net loan and funds position of India in 2008-2009. So the first link below gives the details of the reciepts. There is a table on page 1. In that table look for article 5 = External Loan (Net) = 10989.27 Crores (For the explanation of this line item, scroll down and it is detailed there).

The second link gives the details of the amounts extended by Indian government to other nations. Look in line item number 4 = total amount = 2015.54 Crores.

So to calculate the net = 10989.27 Crores - 2015.54 Crores = Net is = 8973.73 crores. Convert this to USD @ about 46 INR so you get = 1.95 Billion USD.

So do not say massive and change the headline of your post to: India still gets 2 Billion USD loans with a DSR of 4.5.

I konw that Karan.1970 tried to get that concept across but failed. So I am posting one more link, this third link which will explain the progression of the Indian economy on this front as well.

Lastly, let me explain with an American example. Even though America has a huge internal debt and also a severe trade deficit, it still honors its valuable commitment to Afganistan and in the process (by-process??) continues to throw tid bids to your government and Army also. So the lesson = Even when the Cobbler's son may not be wearing shoes, a smart Cobbler will continue to give his works of art to vested interests knowing that if he plays his cards well, his son will soon be wearing Nikes........ = Soft power / Goodwill.

I have been reading a lot of your false propaganda here but as far as economics goes...... look there is no accidental economy, there are either economies or banana markets. I hope that you get the point now and that I have been able to convince you that the amounts being disbursed to India on its capital account are NOT MASSIVE. Thanks.



http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2008-09/rec/sumcap.pdf
http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2008-09/eb/sbe30.pdf
http://www.bk.mufg.jp/report/ecorev2008e/ecoreview_e20081210.pdf

 

[naved_kam]

naved_kam
This message has been deleted by TechLahore. Reason: this post goes too far in personally insulting another member... please repost with facts and without the personally directed


^^^^^^^^^^

Hello Moderator, you deleted my post which had all the information and data tearing apart the plagiarism and mis-informative intent of the thread starter. There was no profanity in my response. Only poetic license. But if you still consider it an affront then you can edit it too. I have seen another moderator = AgnosticMuslim do that very well. The intent is to moderate the quality of discussion and not to supress the facts. So please edit my post or send it back to me and I will edit and post. That kind of research takes time. I am sure that you will appreicate that.

Thanks.

 

[TechLahore]

naved_kam
This message has been deleted by TechLahore. Reason: this post goes too far in personally insulting another member... please repost with facts and without the personally directed


^^^^^^^^^^

Hello Moderator, you deleted my post which had all the information and data tearing apart the plagiarism and mis-informative intent of the thread starter. There was no profanity in my response. Only poetic license. But if you still consider it an affront then you can edit it too. I have seen another moderator = AgnosticMuslim do that very well. The intent is to moderate the quality of discussion and not to supress the facts. So please edit my post or send it back to me and I will edit and post. That kind of research takes time. I am sure that you will appreicate that.

Thanks.

Naved, I have edited and restored your post. But if you want your material to appear here, you need to stay within the realms of decent behaviour. You were going on for one paragraph about 2 inch vs 4 inch. What kind of civility and behavioural ethics are these? I am not going to waste my time to edit this sort of crass material in future, so please stay decent if you want to continue interactions on this forum.

 

[naved_kam]

Naved, I have edited and restored your post. But if you want your material to appear here, you need to stay within the realms of decent behaviour. You were going on for one paragraph about 2 inch vs 4 inch. What kind of civility and behavioural ethics are these? I am not going to waste my time to edit this sort of crass material in future, so please stay decent if you want to continue interactions on this forum.

Thanks TechLahore. Much appreciated. Regret that my original attempt to explain to the thread starter that "massive" is relative so not to start any post with the idea of pure India bashing without any intent to generate a intellectual discourse which is what my actual impression has been mostly on this forum, came across as affrontive to you. So thanks for editing basis your acceptance level and reposting. I appreciate that. I look forward to share this forum with you till we both continue to find it acceptable.

Many thanks once again.

 

[karan.1970]

karan and ramu:

First, let me compliment both of you on your spirited defense of India in the face of poor social indicators with respect to basics such as food, clothing, housing and sanitation. I admire you for your persistence, and the quality of some of the research you do and the arguments you make when challenged.

Second, let me try and dissect the contents of this and other similar threads and summarize my thoughts thus far.

As an Indian writer Anupam Mukerji wrote in an article for Fast Company, India consists of "islands of prosperity" in a " sea of poverty".

Pakistan has a similar situation, except that the islands are bigger and less prosperous, and the sea of poverty is smaller and generally less poor than in India. The rich-poor gap in Pakistan, as measured by Gini Index, is significant, with India at 36, and Pakistan at 30.

Having said that, let me argue that both India and Pakistan have very poor social indicators relative to the rest of the world. Both have a long way to go.

Let me also say that, under the current circumstances, India is more likely to make greater progress in improving its social indicators than Pakistan over the coming years.

Occasionally, I publish guest post from knowledgeable writers from South Asia on my blogs. A number of Indian authors have published on my blog during the last year on subjects related to the human conditions in South Asia.

I invite you both to write guest posts for my blog, sharing your research and data and offering arguments that I do not necessarily have to agree with. It'll make for a healthy debate on issues that matter to both Indians and Pakistanis.

First of all, thank you for the invitation to write on your blog..

I do broadly agree to your assessment here.. And a good anology by Mukerji on islands and sea. And I believe there is really no merit in debating about whose islands are bigger and whose seas are deeper. At the end of the day, both countries are far from where any of us want to see them..

I would really appreciate if you start a thread which discusses the ways that we feel can radically change the ball game in erradication or poverty and hunger from the subcontinent.. There we will not need to fight over who is worse off which is what we have been doing last few days. And may be some snippets from there from different members here can go into your blog as a guest article..

What say you??

 

[ramu]

karan and ramu:

First, let me compliment both of you on your spirited defense of India in the face of poor social indicators with respect to basics such as food, clothing, housing and sanitation. I admire you for your persistence, and the quality of some of the research you do and the arguments you make when challenged.

Second, let me try and dissect the contents of this and other similar threads and summarize my thoughts thus far.

As an Indian writer Anupam Mukerji wrote in an article for Fast Company, India consists of "islands of prosperity" in a " sea of poverty".

Pakistan has a similar situation, except that the islands are bigger and less prosperous, and the sea of poverty is smaller and generally less poor than in India. The rich-poor gap in Pakistan, as measured by Gini Index, is significant, with India at 36, and Pakistan at 30.

Having said that, let me argue that both India and Pakistan have very poor social indicators relative to the rest of the world. Both have a long way to go.

Let me also say that, under the current circumstances, India is more likely to make greater progress in improving its social indicators than Pakistan over the coming years.

Occasionally, I publish guest post from knowledgeable writers from South Asia on my blogs. A number of Indian authors have published on my blog during the last year on subjects related to the human conditions in South Asia.

I invite you both to write guest posts for my blog, sharing your research and data and offering arguments that I do not necessarily have to agree with. It'll make for a healthy debate on issues that matter to both Indians and Pakistanis.

Riaz, I thank you for the invitation. As Karan mentioned, the current state of affairs is far from desirable. The journey to prosperity has just begun and who has a head start is inconsequential as dozens of laps lie ahead.

About your invitation in your blog, I can contribute if you have a strict policy of not editing content / views.