Massive Ambush in S. Waziristan

[313ghazi]

It is getting fixed, point was, that it doesn't get fixed that quickly, in my novice opinion, even 5 years are less....

I might be wrong, but i feel this acceptance that there isn't a quick fix is part of the problem. In any working environment, if it is accepted that there isn't a quick fix and things will take time, I have found that provides people an excuse to hide behind and not deliver to the best of their abilities as quickly as possible. I'm sure it's true that there is no quick fix - however does that mean persuit of a quicker fix is sidelined?

In my personal professional experience, only when the pressure for change and resolutions has been intense, only then has change to big problems been delivered faster than it would have been done. The problem is 20 years old, we've known the need to address it for a long long time, and we have improved a huge amount, you are living witness to it, but I think we've not done as well as we could have done to protect our men on the front lines, because there is a certain comfort level where govt and military leadership can hide behind our nations martyr complex.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

It is getting fixed, point was, that it doesn't get fixed that quickly, in my novice opinion, even 5 years are less....

I hope so but insurgency is not a new phenomenon to Pakistan. Its been like 15 years or so we have been facing it. We should had better tactics to minimize it by now. Lack of use of technology is quite obvious.

 

[ziaulislam]

Yeah blame locals for own incompetence and then wonder why bengladesh, PTM exist
Let drone run for 10 years without uterring a word and then blame locals

I hope so but insurgency is not a new phenomenon to Pakistan. Its been like 15 years or so we have been facing it. We should had better tactics to minimize it by now. Lack of use of technology is quite obvious.

MRAPS dont help per PDF experts..everyone else in world disagrees but who are we to say
Urgent orders to get MRAPs for british and USA troops was all bogus..they arent useful

 

[Sinnerman108]

As much as I can understand emotions,
but over years I have learned to let my mind ride over emotions.
What the enemy did was their tactic,
I have my own strategy and that will lead to my own specific tactics.

Never ever respond in rage,
Always choose and ensure a reply.

As much as I hate repeating it, Aag lagi basti mai Bajwa apni masti mai....
Honestly speaking I have not seen a more incompetent COAS in Pakistan's history, yaar at this point even Zardari would've said or did something but this Bajwa ? can anyone please sack this sack of potato from GHQ ?

We joke about Modi being Pakistani Agent in India, I am starting to believe India also Placed their agent in GHQ who is none other our incompetent Bajwa, and before anyone come and say he knows better than me, blah blah... yeah make me COAS and at least I will save more lives than him for damn well sure.

Handsome gave him extension. Handsome also helped mohsin dawar to win elections unopposed

Don't forget handsome's role in this

 

[TNT]

Then give Waziristan to the talibunnies in Afghanistan for all I care. We can do an exchange for the Wahkand corridor with the talibunnies.

If the waziristani people support the likes of TTP/PLM then let them live under them without a cent of Pakistani tax money and without a single pakistani soldier dying for these ungrateful people. For the last 70 years what has Waziristan produced for pakistan? other than drugs guns war refugees destruction and taking billions that could have been better spent elsewhere.

Under your logic we are treating them the same as the Indians treating the kashmirirs so under that same logic it is best we leave them to their masters in afghanistan... the haqqanis practically have influence in the area and can bring law/order to it pretty quickly.

We should annex everything in FATA apart from Norther/South Waziristan into KP/Mainland Pakistan... then we need to work with Afghanistan and seriously decide once in for all what to do about the terrorist.

This shows ur typical dumb fanboy mentality.
Pakistani soldiers die for them? When have that hapenned? Infact the opposite, hundreds of waziriatanis have died for Pakistan liberating kashmir. The only war Pakistan won decisively was 1948 when these tribals fought for the country, other than that, our over hyped army has never won a war.
Pakistani tax money?? It was a tribal area and even today ull hardly find electricity or schools or hospitals, which f***** tax money r u talking about? U didnt even bothered to remove tribal status since 1947, and let them live with the harsh 1930 british tribal laws. All because it suited u.
Drugs and weapons u blame on them now? Those are all products of our state in war against USSR. U think all this drug n weapons industry can go on without govt approval? U must be dumb as a rock.
Its this stupidity of u ppl that make them hate u more, u dont evwn know what u have done with them. Plunged their kids into wars for others, first jihad against USSR and then against USA. Just go n listen to what those ppl have to say.
U r also stupid in saying let them be with Afghanistan. No country allows this for a reason, let them join Afghanistan and soon ull have to let go of all KPK and tribal areas and after that balochistan too. Maybe all these ppl should join Afghanistan and let the hateful and racist two provinces live happily ever after.

 

[Great Janjua]

Yeah blame locals for their incompetence and then wonder why Bangladesh, PTM exist
Let drone run for 10 years without uttering a word and then blame locals

MRAPS don't help per PDF experts..everyone else in the world disagrees but who are we to say
Urgent orders to get MRAPs for British and USA troops were all bogus..they arent useful

Let's take the British and Americans out of the scene for a minute, Even African nations are deploying Mraps at a high rate.

The reason why I say the Indians are cunning experts when it comes to procurement necessities. Take an example, India bought the Casspir MRAP design from South Africa years ago, later they improved upon that platform with local heavy industries and presently it's deployed in large numbers across the Kashmir valley.

Just recently they bought another design from the same paramount group with tot for local production. Now, Let me take you in for a laugh. The original design is the battle-proven Mbombe 4×4 by the paramount group but Indians being cunning as usual have renamed it to Kalyani m4 and are labelling it an indigenous product.

We on the other hand are short-sighted we see nothing beyond the DHA Plots.

 

[SQ8]

A single Nimitz class carrier needs almost 5 miles of space to completely turn around in normal uninterrupted conditions
.... And here we are talking about a million strong armed forces and decades old doctrine and equipment, plagued by lack of money and resources.... With triple stretch conditions, with half of the world against you, no guaranteed support base like Israel has...

To both sides of this “aisle” between civil and military I say when they blame each other… you are criticizing a mirror at the end of the day. As much as an effect an institution’s values and training provides, the baggage of the overall society still makes it through whether diluted or in some other form.

If there is malaise or inaction being decried - what has the overall society done to both impact this and inaction within itself?

Again, it doesn’t excuse the variety of changes you encompassed that need to happen. But if the ones performing the checks & balances from the other state institutions are fake degree graduates with zero idea of how a military works or even the word strategy.. I wonder what miracles does Bani Pakistan expect for itself?

so till than our peoples lives mean nothing?... we are not people
cool

Its up to the Pakistani people then right? What are they expecting without work? Mon & Salwa from the sky?

The head of the department is always to blame. while he may not be micro-managing anything, he is responsible for all that happens under him. isnt this the way army itself punishes commanders? if a subordinate does something disastrous, along with that subordinate the unit commander also loses his command/seniority. this principle needs to be applied at the top most level as well.

Absolutely - who is to provide those checks and balances? The only person I see publicly with intellectual capacity is Moeed Yusuf but does he have any agency to question the COAS and current policies?
Who does then? A businessman senator focused in pocketing petroleum contracts? A MNA from Sindh with a fake degree? PDF members?

 

[Zarvan]

It is getting fixed, point was, that it doesn't get fixed that quickly, in my novice opinion, even 5 years are less....

Sir thing is we didn't started facing insurgency in 2021. We are facing it since 2003 and sectarian one since 1980s. And by 2007 MRAP had come in the world. Although armored vehicles for Police are there for decades in the world. But a true MRAP also came by 2007. And our country has everything on order except for MRAP. So that is why every one here and who ever studies these things is skeptical.

 

[TigerOfMysore]

@PanzerKiel

PK is correct. The fix will take time. The correct critique is the pace of change here.
I will still question tactics, I know @PanzerKiel might disagree, but I remember an army that even one loss of a solider due to an avalanche was a serious consideration at Board, and all officers knew this. Granted that might sometimes make people overly careful when initiative is needed, but I think over time we have become too accustomed to notching another to a "shaheed". I dont buy this approach one bit.

 

[XVIV]

A single Nimitz class carrier needs almost 5 miles of space to completely turn around in normal uninterrupted conditions
.... And here we are talking about a million strong armed forces and decades old doctrine and equipment, plagued by lack of money and resources.... With triple stretch conditions, with half of the world against you, no guaranteed support base like Israel has...

What is missed so often on this forum is context and circumstance. It took the United Kingdom until 2012 (more than a decade since the invasion) to deploy the Foxhound Light Patrol Vehicle to replace its Snatch Land Rovers which were mobile death traps in Afghanistan. This is a nation with a GDP ten times larger than Pakistan, supported in a theatre by the premier international military alliance, and one of the better indigenous defense production capabilities out there. Moreover, the United Kingdom and other allied forces still found themselves repeatedly on the defensive with IEDs and ambushes, because fighting an asymmetrical enemy with a symmetrical conventional army is the security equivalent of playing Whack-A-Mole.

Now many on this forum will posit that Pakistan will have the option to procure MRAPS or other equipment from foreign sources. It certainly could, but with what money? Somehow, PDF posters are determined to ignore the reality that military capability in the modern world is in large part defined by the access you have to available funds. Pakistan is a country fighting at least three insurgencies (TTP, BLA, Sindh), has a hostile conventional neighbor to its East and an unstable failed state to its West. It is also a nuclear power, which includes the relatively advanced delivery options it has. All this whilst not having had any real economic growth for 20 years and with recurrent balance of payment crises.

Pakistan's options are very limited. There is a reason that American and British KIAs were so limited in Afghanistan - the average cost to kit out an American infrantyman is $17,500 or PKR 2,966,250.00 (according to today's rate). Even still, allied forces still had a significant amount of personnel with long/longer term injuries.

The point I am trying to make is fighting insurgencies is damn difficult. The USSR lost the Afghan War, not because of some sort of theological superiority by the Afghan Mujahideen and Pakistani supporting forces, but as an insurgency (and particularly a well equipped and trained one) is impossible to defend against. Many here may posit that in the case of Afghanistan the USSR had certain disadvantages as it was outside of its own territory, but that fact also carries advantages too (namely increased operational freedom and a lack of blowback). The hard truth is that for developing countries, like Pakistan, casualties and KIAs are always far higher than for developed countries. Some posters here have made a laughable comparison with African - one would ask them to really look at the capability of African forces in general, and the casualty rates they have incurred in conflict.

Pakistan does certainly punch above its weight with the hand it has been played. But it is not capable of miracles, or more aptly put, escaping the hard limits that it has as a nation state. Resorting to puerile personal attacks (as many on this thread have done) on the Army Senior Command does nothing but betray one's own immaturity. Anybody with even a modicum of understanding of management structures, civil or military, will know that Bajwa does not solely (or event at all) occupy his time with DHA Projects or commissioning patriotic ensembles. And even worse, are the attacks on Senior Command for thinking about the wider strategic (indeed I have always thought one of our greatest weaknesses as a nation is thinking in the tactical and not strategic) challenges Pakistan has. Geo-economics is the greatest challenge facing us, and unlike the fantasy land many posters here seemingly occupy, India's economy is outgrowing Pakistan at some pace and that has serious (and even fatal) repercussions for Pakistan's ability to maintain the balance of conventional forces. An institution as broad and complex as a national army is capable of thinking about more than two things, or dare I say it, multiple things, at once.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Sir thing is we didn't started facing insurgency in 2021. We are facing it since 2003 and sectarian one since 1980s. And by 2007 MRAP had come in the world. Although armored vehicles for Police are there for decades in the world. But a true MRAP also came by 2007. And our country has everything on order except for MRAP. So that is why every one here and who ever studies these things is skeptical.

No denying whatever you say, we are already late in several aspects.

@PanzerKiel

PK is correct. The fix will take time. The correct critique is the pace of change here.
I will still question tactics, I know @PanzerKiel might disagree, but I remember an army that even one loss of a solider due to an avalanche was a serious consideration at Board, and all officers knew this. Granted that might sometimes make people overly careful when initiative is needed, but I think over time we have become to accustomed to notching another to a "shaheed". I dont buy this approach one bit.

The present form of warfare has its own problems.....not very recently, once Op Z e A started, massive air and artillery operations supported corps sized infantry assaults...this was because areas were empty of civilians, we were clear that someone sighted was either from armed forces or the enemy.....so the enemy was easily eliminated....but now, a third dimension, the presence of civilians has been added...now we cant go firing all around at will....we have to stand guard, which also means that we have to endure and absorb the first shots in every incident, which causes casualties...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I thought it was just India going use it or lose it (as our experts on PDF have told us), but now looks like the situation is worse from the local areas themselves, Taliban victory has only emboldened this side Taliban. many blaming PTM, but it was the PTM who opposed TTP in the early days and supported drone strikes on TTP leaders while the rest of Pakistani leadership was showing performative opposition. political and high command situation aside, may the soldiers rest in peace.

PTM leaders have always taken an anti-State position meant to rile up anti-State sentiment to serve their foreign masters. When the State was opposed to large scale Ops, they supported them and supported indiscriminate US air strikes that inflicted more civilian casualties than Taliban casualties on both sides of the border (and PTM leaders knew this).

Once the Pakistan Army launched large scale Ops and cleared the areas and started the process of reconstruction and rehabilitation, the PTM decided to oppose the Pakistan Army & State and engaged in racist, ethnically divisive and violent rhetoric even as they continued supporting the Afghan government, military & US military Ops that killed many magnitude more civilians.

The PTM is a poisonous cancer designed to oppose the Pakistani State regardless of what the State does, so please save your ignorant, blathering defense of the PTM for other Indians who aren’t as well informed.

 

[bhola record]

iok

mere pas le aao, no please dont send black vigo.

 

[ziaulislam]

What is missed so often on this forum is context and circumstance. It took the United Kingdom until 2012 (more than a decade since the invasion) to deploy the Foxhound Light Patrol Vehicle to replace its Snatch Land Rovers which were mobile death traps in Afghanistan. This is a nation with a GDP ten times larger than Pakistan, supported in a theatre by the premier international military alliance, and one of the better indigenous defense production capabilities out there. Moreover, the United Kingdom and other allied forces still found themselves repeatedly on the defensive with IEDs and ambushes, because fighting an asymmetrical enemy with a symmetrical conventional army is the security equivalent of playing Whack-A-Mole.

Now many on this forum will posit that Pakistan will have the option to procure MRAPS or other equipment from foreign sources. It certainly could, but with what money? Somehow, PDF posters are determined to ignore the reality that military capability in the modern world is in large part defined by the access you have to available funds. Pakistan is a country fighting at least three insurgencies (TTP, BLA, Sindh), has a hostile conventional neighbor to its East and an unstable failed state to its West. It is also a nuclear power, which includes the relatively advanced delivery options it has. All this whilst not having had any real economic growth for 20 years and with recurrent balance of payment crises.

Pakistan's options are very limited. There is a reason that American and British KIAs were so limited in Afghanistan - the average cost to kit out an American infrantyman is $17,500 or PKR 2,966,250.00 (according to today's rate). Even still, allied forces still had a significant amount of personnel with long/longer term injuries.

The point I am trying to make is fighting insurgencies is damn difficult. The USSR lost the Afghan War, not because of some sort of theological superiority by the Afghan Mujahideen and Pakistani supporting forces, but as an insurgency (and particularly a well equipped and trained one) is impossible to defend against. Many here may posit that in the case of Afghanistan the USSR had certain disadvantages as it was outside of its own territory, but that fact also carries advantages too (namely increased operational freedom and a lack of blowback). The hard truth is that for developing countries, like Pakistan, casualties and KIAs are always far higher than for developed countries. Some posters here have made a laughable comparison with African - one would ask them to really look at the capability of African forces in general, and the casualty rates they have incurred in conflict.

Pakistan does certainly punch above its weight with the hand it has been played. But it is not capable of miracles, or more aptly put, escaping the hard limits that it has as a nation state. Resorting to puerile personal attacks (as many on this thread have done) on the Army Senior Command does nothing but betray one's own immaturity. Anybody with even a modicum of understanding of management structures, civil or military, will know that Bajwa does not solely (or event at all) occupy his time with DHA Projects or commissioning patriotic ensembles. And even worse, are the attacks on Senior Command for thinking about the wider strategic (indeed I have always thought one of our greatest weaknesses as a nation is thinking in the tactical and not strategic) challenges Pakistan has. Geo-economics is the greatest challenge facing us, and unlike the fantasy land many posters here seemingly occupy, India's economy is outgrowing Pakistan at some pace and that has serious (and even fatal) repercussions for Pakistan's ability to maintain the balance of conventional forces. An institution as broad and complex as a national army is capable of thinking about more than two things, or dare I say it, multiple things, at once.

ABSOLUTELY WRONG
UK went in trouble during surge later in 2010 in helmend and got the MRAP within 3 years

We have insurgency for 20 years..
Our defense budget is 10b$ so quit yepping about gdp
Better delay a squardon of thunders and buy a few hundred MRAPs

PTM leaders have always taken an anti-State position meant to rile up anti-State sentiment to serve their foreign masters. When the State was opposed to large scale Ops, they supported them and supported indiscriminate US air strikes that inflicted more civilian casualties than Taliban casualties on both sides of the border (and PTM leaders knew this).

Once the Pakistan Army launched large scale Ops and cleared the areas and started the process of reconstruction and rehabilitation, the PTM decided to oppose the Pakistan Army & State and engaged in racist, ethnically divisive and violent rhetoric even as they continued supporting the Afghan government, military & US military Ops that killed many magnitude more civilians.

The PTM is a poisonous cancer designed to oppose the Pakistani State regardless of what the State does, so please save your ignorant, blathering defense of the PTM for other Indians who aren’t as well informed.

PTM works on fault lines
Fault lines created during last 15 yrs of drones and military op..

On twitter they support drones but on ground they tell people it was pak army who joined USA to kill ordinary people

 

[Dalit]

Waziristanis overwhelmingly support TTP

Such attacks that are happening continously are not possible without local support

There is no doubt there is local support. It has been there for decades now. We didn't do ourselves any favors by allowing these areas to remain independent. These regions have remained lawless for ages. As a kid when I used to visit Pakistan I often heard that certain areas in Pakistan used to be termed as no go areas. I never grasped the notion of no go areas. Today as a grown up it is becoming very clear why these areas are called no go areas. Despite years of fighting and cleaning up this area still remains a hotbed of instability. Unfortunately geographics also plays a major part.

Time has come to work very closely with the Taliban government and weed out TTP remnants.