Marines issue: Italy may recall ambassador to India

[MarkusS]

You know your words are all hot air, your marines will come and take part in the court proceedings, you can throw tantrums around but eventually they have to come around, as this is a criminal case, you can arrest Indian sailors for smuggling drugs on a ship and if it is found that they were arrested as vendetta, then all Italian ships passing through the Malacca straits and Indian ocean will be arrested on charges of supplying illegal weapons and drugs, and they will be put in Indian jails for a very, very long time.
Two can play this game.
It is upto your nation how far it wants to go. Already they botched up before when the Italy said, Marines won't return back, then our Supreme court ordered to arrest your Ambassador who gave assurance to the court that marines will return back, in the end your nation had to eat their own words and send back those marines, or have your Ambassador arrested for contempt of the court.
You can only hope the other marine won't return, but in the end he will have to come and face the court there is no escaping from this case.


This guy is all hot air, he thinks his nation is so great that they can get away with murder,apparently not, the court wont let him without facing a trial.
If the vatican intervenes, as he says in this matter then it will risk antagonizing the christians in India. It will throw a massive spanner in Vatican and Evangelist drive to harvest souls for christianity and Vatican knows it, it won't interfere to save two Italian marines and risk losing thousands of converts, if it does, it will give a big platform to Nationalists on Media and elsewhere, where they will use it to blast Vatican policies and how it interferes in Indian matters ,considers Indian Christians as second class christians when compared to Italian christians and further stall and stop the missonary conversions.They are our citizens after all,Also use it as beating stick to beat Italian Sonia Gandhi and Congress as they let this fiasco happen, Congress will dented further and lose its face in public. All of this will blowback big time on Italy and Vatican.
trust me that is very counter productive.

As evident from the UN general , Ban-ki-Moon's message who didn't want to be drawn into this issue.UN won't interfere and even EU won't as they have bigger problems like Ukraine,PUTIN,Greece being kicked out of EU etc.
This kind of blackmail by Italy wont work long, they have to eventually return and face the court,they cannot escape it.

you talk like this matters in any way. Nobody in italy cares about the fishermen. And no, Latorre will not return. That was already made clear. This nonsense has to end. A european nation can´t afford to waste time with tribal bogus courts. Come back when you finally raised an issue.

 

[StormShadow]

Why the fvck are we still hanging on with this case. As if the courts are so sincere in solving all the murder cases with such zeal. Something very unfortunate has happened with the fishermen...ask the marines to apologize and compensate the families. It has been dragged long enough and now it's high time to be done with it.

 

[Hindustani78]

Yes they were not aware of the EEZ and according to Kerala police they were drunk and shot for fun as reported in local news papers.

Italy, India Clash Over Ocean Shooting - WSJ
This will explain the case.
Italy says its a Case in International waters and therefore cannot be tried in India, While India says the Incident took place in its maritime boundary and those were private armed guards and the victims were Indians.So they have to be tried in Indian courts as per Indian law.

The outcome of UNCLOS 3

The 1982 Convention on the Law of the Sea met most of India's interests. It adopted:

• Twelve miles as the uniform limit for the width of the territorial sea.
• a two hundred miles EEZ, within which the coastal state exercises sovereign rights and jurisdiction for certain specified economic activities.
• a Continental Shelf extending to the outer edge of the continental margin, to be delimited with reference to either three hundred and fifty miles from the baselines of territorial waters or one hundred miles from the 2500 - meter isobath.
• regimes for the abatement and control of marine pollution, for marine scientific research, for the international seabed area and for unimpeded transit passage through straits used for international navigation.
• The 1982 Convention included India as one of the four states named as "pioneer investor' for seabed mining. On 17 August 1987, India became the first state to be so registered, after having fulfilled the criteria stipulated in the Convention.

India's Gains After the 1982 UN Convention of the Law of the Sea.

Apart from the benefits of an agreed Law of the Sea, India gained in two significant areas:- (a) India's EEZ became the twelfth largest in the world. The extension of the EEZ to 350 miles or 100 miles beyond the 2500-metre isobath added 2 million square kilometers to India's jurisdiction.

................................................................................................................................................................................................


From Italy side now

STATE LAWS ON ARMED GUARDS AND ARMS ON BOARD

Authorization of arms on board, employment of private armed guards on board and use of firearms

Security personnel on Board
Following the recent Decree of the Ministry of Interior Affairs no. 266 dated 28 December 2012, which allows the embarkation of Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel (PCASP) onboard Italian flaggedships, the Italian Coast Guard have issued a new decree no. 349/2013, in order to regulate safety and security aspects in compliance with the
employment of NMPs (Navy) or Contractors (PCASP).
The decree no. 349/2013 replaces the previous decree no. 963/2011issued by same Italian Coast Guard on 7 October 2011. The main issues are the following
NMPs and Contractors [PCASP]
NMPs and Contractors are qualified as “other than persons” pursuant to SOLAS 74, Chapter I-2 (e) (i).
Before embarking, a specific list has to be drawn up by the Masterconcerning the person-al particulars of NMP members or Contractors,who shall be qualified respectively as Military Government Staff or Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel

Possession of weapons on board
Yes

Terms and Conditions

The rule provides for that all vessels which take on board NMPs or Contractors have to be previously equipped with a suitable location for the storage and carriage of IMDG class 1.4s “explosives” ammunition.
Such a location has to be approved by Italian Register (RINA) or other classification society recognised by the Italian Maritime Administration. Ammunition stores shall be considered part of the ship’s store and equipment pursuant to SOLAS74, Chapter VII-2.2.


National Official Guidance
On request of the Shipowners who bear the entire cost, it is possible to embark armed guards on board from the Naval Forces that may also appeal to personnel of others military forces, and use of arms to ensure the protection of the ship and crew. From 2013, it is also possible to embark PCASP.


Other commentaries
NMP - Detailed rules and terms of reference for armed guards are stipulated in an agreement between Confitarma and the Ministry of Defence. 10 teams of six military personnel will be available for Italian-registered vessels. The final obstacle is to secure the diplomatic agreements with ports and states in the region for the transit of military personnel and their arms enabling them to join and leave vessels.
PCASP- Training and Familiarization

In occasion of the embarkation a suitable familiarization has to be provided to NMPs or Contractors concerning the following issues:routine communication protocol; vessel particulars and risks; emergency procedures.

NMPs or Contractors have to attend a drill abandonment of the ship within 24 hours of sailing.

Command and Control

The shipowner / operator / bareboat charterer when entering into a contract with Contractors has to ensure that the command and control structure linking the ship operator, the Master, the ship’s officers and the PCASP team leader has been clearly defined and documented according to MSC.1/Circ. 1405/Rev.2.

 

[Bombermanx1]

you talk like this matters in any way. Nobody in italy cares about the fishermen. And no, Latorre will not return. That was already made clear. This nonsense has to end. A european nation can´t afford to waste time with tribal bogus courts. Come back when you finally raised an issue.

Yeah we heard you,We don't care about Italy either,and Yes,Latorre will return to face our court.You cannot escape it.This was made already clear.This Nonsense of Italy has to end .European nation or anyone will face our court when they killed our citizens.You will come and face our court there is no escaping here.You can trumpet european nation etc. but its a load of hot gas and nobody in India is impressed about your grandstanding.

 

[Hindustani78]

UN chief 'concerned' over marines dispute between India, Italy | Zee News

Last Updated: Friday, January 9, 2015 - 13:26

United Nations: Days before his visit to India, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has expressed concern over the dispute between New Delhi and Rome over the marines issue and called on the two nations to reach a "mutually acceptable solution."


Ban's spokesperson Stephane Dujarric told Italian wire service ANSA on January 6 that the Secretary-General is "concerned that the (marines) issue remains unresolved thus sharpening tensions between two important member States."

The agency quoted Dujarric as saying that it is "important for both parties to try to reach a reasonable and mutually acceptable solution" and Ban "fears the issue could affect common efforts for peace and international security".

Dujarric remarks come just days ahead of Ban's visit to New Delhi and Gujarat from January 10 to 13 during which he will meet President Pranab Mukherjee, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj.

A day before making these remarks to ANSA, Dujarric had told reporters that the position of the UN chief over the issue remained unchanged.

Ban has maintained that the case of the two Italian marines being tried in India for killing two fishermen off Kerala in 2012 should be resolved bilaterally.

One of the two Italian marines, Massimiliano Latorre, has undergone a heart surgery in Milan to correct a cardiac anomaly, days before his scheduled return to India.

He has been in Italy after the Supreme Court allowed him to visit his home country on September 12 for four months for medical treatment after a stroke he suffered on August 31.

Latorre had then sought an extension of his stay.

The Supreme Court had last month refused the pleas of Latorre seeking the extension on health grounds and that of his fellow co-accused Salvatore Girone the permission to travel there for Christmas, saying they cannot get such a "leeway".

The two marines maintain that they fired at the fishermen after mistaking them for pirates.

The marines had been living in the Italian embassy in New Delhi since then waiting to be tried, and were not supposed to leave the country.

The situation has led to tense relations between India and Italy, which says India has no jurisdiction in the case.

PTI

 

[Hindustani78]

Yeah we heard you,We don't care about Italy either,and Yes,Latorre will return to face our court.You cannot escape it.This was made already clear.This Nonsense of Italy has to end .European nation or anyone will face our court when they killed our citizens.You will come and face our court there is no escaping here.You can trumpet european nation etc. but its a load of hot gas and nobody in India is impressed about your grandstanding.

Its a case which is already running in Indian Supreme Court and i don't think that Italy or EU will want to spoil their relations with India nor India wants to spoil its relations with EU. GoI might have already talked the French regarding this and this issue will be even raised during President Obama visit to India.

I don't deny that some nations have to understand that India is a sovereign country and if Indians be it from military or civilians are breaking laws of EU countries then those Government can run the trails according to the law of that land. India did let those Italian private guards on humanitarian bases and the same EU Governments have to do on humanitarian with the Indian nationals.

 

[Hindustani78]

EU-India summit off as Italian marines case rankles| Reuters
By Douglas Busvine

NEW DELHI Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:08am EDT

(Reuters) - Plans for the European Union to host a summit with Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi have collapsed amid acrimony over delays to the trial of two Italian marines for murder in the 2012 killing of two Indian fishermen.

A spokesman for the Ministry of External Affairs on Monday confirmed that no EU-India summit would take place during Modi's trip to Europe next month, when he will visit Germany and France, but the official declined to comment further.

The last India-EU summit was held in February 2012, days before the incident. An EU official said both sides were looking for a mutually convenient date for the summit, to be hosted by the 28-member bloc, that would allow for sufficient preparation.

The head of a European Parliament delegation visiting India expressed disappointment and said the failure to hold a summit would delay efforts to strike a long-awaited free trade deal.

"Of course we attach importance to the imprisonment under any circumstances of citizens of our member states," Geoffrey van Orden told a news conference, when asked whether the case of the marines was behind the failure to set a summit date.

"We feel the process has gone on a bit long and should be expedited," said van Orden, a British member of the European Parliament who headed the seven-strong delegation.

Marines Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, part of a military team protecting a privately owned cargo ship, say they mistook Indian fishermen for pirates and fired warning shots into the water.

India's Supreme Court has allowed Latorre to temporarily return to Italy for heart surgery, but Girone remains in India awaiting trial.

Indian reports say New Delhi has taken exception to the role of EU Foreign Affairs High Representative Federica Mogherini in the case, which has made headlines in her home country, Italy.

A European Parliament resolution in January called for the return of the marines and a change of jurisdiction in the case. Italy argues that the incident took place in international waters off India's southwestern coast.

"It's good for everyone to be fully aware of how much of an impact the unresolved dispute of the two Italian Navy officers can have on relations between the EU and India," Mogherini told a debate on the resolution. "It is putting them to the test."

On the issue of the Italian marines, the EU official said Brussels had consistently called for a mutually agreeable solution, in the interest of both Italy and India, based on international law.

(Additional reporting by Adrian Croft in Brussels; Editing by Alison Williams)

 

[MarkusS]

I dont think a freetrade agreement is something positive formthe EU. Imdia is hostile,towards europe, so why make a big circus for them?

 

[Hindustani78]

I dont think a freetrade agreement is something positive formthe EU. Imdia is hostile,towards europe, so why make a big circus for them?

Why you think that India is hostile towards Europe ?

 

[Screambowl]

who gives a damn.. they are murderers

Why you think that India is hostile towards Europe ?

Italy is trying to involve whole of the EU. Even when EU is not interested ..

 

[ganesh177]

Hang the other fellow and get on with it.

India was dumb enough to let him free in first place, so must pay the price for being dumb.

 

[Lord ZeN]

Imdia is hostile,towards europe, so why make a big circus for them?

Naah.. India is only hostile towards racist Italians like you. Our relationship with all the European counties except may be Italy is pretty good.

 

[Hindustani78]

who gives a damn.. they are murderers



Italy is trying to involve whole of the EU. Even when EU is not interested ..

EU wont spoil relations with India , by the way European investment bank is about to set up its office in India.

Marine case will be solved with time but still Supreme Court of India should be respected. I think the marine will be back to India,


EU Investment Bank to step up project funding in India | Business Line

Naah.. India is only hostile towards racist Italians like you. Our relationship with all the European counties except may be Italy is pretty good.

There is a need for EU countries and EU nationals to change thier attitudes towards India and Indians. Indians have been always tolerant towards all the nations.

 

[SrNair]

who gives a damn.. they are murderers



Italy is trying to involve whole of the EU. Even when EU is not interested ..

Reason is simple .Italy cant face India directly .They are still struggling even if they involved EU.That what would be the situation if they challenge us one on one.

 

[Hindustani78]

Reason is simple .Italy cant face India directly .They are still struggling even if they involved EU.That what would be the situation if they challenge us one on one.

The visit by Managing Director, IMF, Ms. Christine Lagarde to India today is very important.