Many Muslims in Europe publicly abandoning Islam, becoming Christians

[Jaanbaz]

What is say is proven true every day: Islam is only what Muslims actually do, despite all claims to the contrary just like the ones in this thread..

What about millions of Muslims in fact the majority living peacefully? Your logic is same as people like Robert Spencer.

 

[My-Analogous]

Muslim 'apostates' come out of hiding in Europe - The Times of India

BRUSSELS: A number of Muslims in Europe are publicly abandoning their religion to become Christians or agnostics despite their former community's taboo against such acts.

In France, the film "The Apostle" by filmmaker Cheyenne Carron has meanwhile lifted the veil on "apostasy" by telling the story of a young Muslim who converted to Catholicism and how he had trouble getting family and friends to accept his choice.

"It is time for us to stop hiding," said Pastor Said Oujibou, 46, who left radical Islam for evangelical protestantism and who is among the few converts to have publicized his decision in France.

He said he is "tolerated" by his former co-religionists, even if he admits to having sparked "sarcasm and annoyance" from them.

But he warned against the "double talk" that certain branches of Islam in France close to the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists use toward apostate Muslims.

"Apostasy is a taboo in Muslim culture and if the text of the Quran does not provide for any punishment, prophetic tradition calls for killing apostates," said Radouane Attiya, a former preacher trained in Saudi Arabia who is now a specialist on Islam at Liege University in Belgium.

Specialists said that more people become Muslim in Europe than leave the faith but Muslims converting to Christianity, especially evangelical protestantism, are on the rise, according to Oujibou.

Evangelicals seek to proselytise in working class and immigrant neighbourhoods where there are many Muslims.

"In Europe, as in Arab countries, there is a rampant atheism gaining ground. But what is new is the search for visibility," Attiya said.

He said "Islamic radicalism, world jihadism are contributing to the emergence of a reverse radicalism."

Ahmed, a Belgian engineer in his forties, abandoned Islam because he said he rejected the "total control" his former religion has over people's lives.

Ahmed spoke only on condition of anonymity and said he was also "fed up with the omnipresence of fundamentalists," and what he called "the hypocrisy of Islam."

He joined a group that fights Muslim "indoctrination," one that has around ten members, "very little financial means" and a website publicising the books of Robert Spencer, an American anti-Muslim blogger who has been accused of racism and incitement to hatred.

Similar organisations have existed for several years in Britain and Germany, made up of Iranian exiles.

In September, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims in Germany called for a protest against a handful of Salafists who proclaimed themselves "police of the Sharia," Islamic law, in the western city of Wuppertal.

"It's true," Ahmed said, "that somehow we join the extreme right, but Islam is also the extreme right. It's up to us to clean house."

Imtiaz Shams, 25, who comes from what he calls a "very conservative" Muslim family in London, may not be an activist like Ahmed.

But he renounced his faith before his family two years ago and joined an "underground community" for former Muslims that now numbers around 300 people in London.

"We do weekly meet-ups, we take care of each other. This is not even the tip of the iceberg. It's a couple of ice cubes on top of the iceberg," Shams said.

"We don't really fit in with the activist ex-Muslim stuff. It's more personal," he said.

He said it is very difficult for Muslims to "come out" before their families.

"People feel hurt, because they feel like you are rejecting something, almost spitting in their face even if you have respect for their faith," he said.

For his mother, it's also "the fear that my child is going to hell." He estimated that there may be around 10,000 agnostics among London's Muslim community of 600,000.

killing few dozen make Islamic terrorist. Killing few hundred makes nationalist / Communist, Killing thousand of thousand makes peace keeper / peace loving Christians. (check history of killing to verify that)

 

[VCheng]

What about millions of Muslims in fact the majority living peacefully? Your logic is same as people like Robert Spencer.

Those millions are sleepwalking behind their rabid leaders and therefore complicit in the crimes being committed in their name by their silence.

 

[TankMan]

Apostasy is a crime in 23 out of 49 Muslim majority countries. That is almost half the Muslim countries in the world.
And those who do have this law clearly say that this is a requirement of Islam - an veritable Army of Ulemas of each country who have devoted their life to studying Islam back this.

This is not to mention that Saudi Arabia, the country where Islam was founded also has Apostasy laws in which death is awarded to those who leave Islam. And forgive us - but we do believe that Saudi Arabia would know Islam better than others and their Ulemas more qualified.

Not 23 countries, stop getting your information from Wikipedia. According to Pew Research Center, 20 countries penalize apostasy and that includes many countries where it is not actually penalized legally (mobs of idiotic murderers do not count as state penalization)

Laws Penalizing Blasphemy, Apostasy and Defamation of Religion are Widespread | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Spoiler: Explanation of countries listed by Pew that do not really penalize apostasy, with evidence and links

Jordan, despite their officials stating that apostasy is not penalized in their country. (They had a fatwa in 1986 but they apparently changed it in 2009, Pew says that this change is not enforced because of a few incidents of people being prosecuted on religious grounds)
Laws Penalizing Blasphemy, Apostasy and Defamation of Religion are Widespread | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project
Apostate from Islam in Jordan - HG.org

It also includes Pakistan, despite the fact that 'There is no specific statutory law that criminalizes apostasy in Pakistan.' (again, this is based on certain incidents and lumps the blasphemy-related laws with apostasy)
Laws Criminalizing Apostasy#Pakistan

It also includes Egypt, despite the fact that 'Egypt does not have a statutory ban on apostasy'. Again, based on incidents and blasphemy laws.
Laws Criminalizing Apostasy#Egypt

Also, the Syrian state does not penalize apostasy but 'Islamist extremist groups in Syria have applied extrajudicial penalties against individuals who are accused of apostasy. '
Laws Criminalizing Apostasy#Syria

Of course, Pew still includes this in its list of 20 countries.

Iraq: ''Article 372 of Iraq’s Penal Code of 1969 provides that any individual who insults the creed of a religious sect or its practices, or publicly insults a symbol or person that is an object of sanctification, worship, or reverence for a religious sect, may be punished with a term of imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine not exceeding 300 Iraqi dinars (approximately US$0.25)'' - There is no punishment for Apostasy as long as you don't go around insulting other people's religion.
Laws Criminalizing Apostasy#Iraq

So, at the end of the day, there are only about 15 countries that actually penalize apostasy.

When you talk about an 'army of Ulemas', you must keep in mind that these ullemas all have stakes in politics and definitely have political motivations behind these kinds of things. It is really pathetic that they constantly politicize Islam and I strongly condemn them for manipulating people like that.

I feel a lot of time personal opinions are injected as religious beliefs or god desire.

You feel perfectly right sir, that is mostly the case when it comes to the mullahs and 'scholars'. That is where idiotic rules like 'women can't drive' come from, not Islam.

Those millions are sleepwalking behind their rabid leaders and therefore complicit in the crimes being committed in their name by their silence.

Sir, you are not making any sense here. First you say that Islam is what Muslims do, now you are saying it is what Muslims do not condemn? That is not logically consistent. You're also overlooking the large amount of Muslims that do openly condemn these kinds of actions.

And I know for a fact that millions of Muslims simply do not care about their 'rabid leaders' and many don't follow them. The few that do follow them need to be educated properly, they are way too gullible to be falling for what is mostly idiocy like that. It's a shame that people like that get to dictate their state's policies.

 

[Mitro]

Quranic Ayat 2:256 is talking about unbeliever who has not yet excepted islam but once you except islam then their is no turning back.
the second ayat 4:137 is talking about hypocrite who except faith then they reject faith but not publicly but in their heart so god is telling us that he is not going to forgive or guide them.

the hadees is authentic and right.

Hadith like that are either misinterpreted or not authentic if they contradict the Quran.

"Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, LET him disbelieve." [18:29]
''There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." [2:256]
"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--G'd will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." [4:137] (An apostate could not have enjoyed the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if the punishment was death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving.)

Source: Many Muslims in Europe publicly abandoning Islam, becoming Christians

 

[VCheng]

Sir, you are not making any sense here. First you say that Islam is what Muslims do, now you are saying it is what Muslims do not condemn? That is not logically consistent. You're also overlooking the large amount of Muslims that do openly condemn these kinds of actions.
And I know for a fact that millions of Muslims simply do not care about their 'rabid leaders' and many don't follow them. The few that do follow them need to be educated properly, they are way too gullible to be falling for what is mostly idiocy like that. It's a shame that people like that get to dictate their state's policies.

I am making perfect sense.

Islam is what Muslims do, both by the rabid leaders and by the silent followers, who, at the most, say "that is not Islam" and think they have done all that they could and should.

But you are right, what is being done to Islam by Muslims is a shame indeed.

 

[TankMan]

Islam is what Muslims do, both by the rabid leaders and by the silent followers, who, at the most, say "that is not Islam" and think they have done all that they could and should.

No, sir, it is not. Islam is what the religious text says (that is also what the majority does). but anyways please do tell us what more should we, normal Muslim people, do, since obviously speaking out is not enough for you people, we need to do something more. I said this in a previous thread and it's perfectly relevant over here:

Should I go and die just because some a**hole a thousand miles away killed some innocents in the name of my religion or because some politician believes stupid things? What should I do? Should I go and start killing people who kill people because killing people is wrong? I mean, you people clearly aren't happy with peaceful protesting, letters and other forms of civilized communication to show that we are not all like this.
Should I go and kill Erdogan to prove that I do not believe his false stories?

What do I, and 1.7 Billion Muslims, need to do to prove that we, like every other human on Earth, simply want to go about our daily lives, eat and be healthy and live good lives? That we do not in any way endorse the crimes of others, that we do not oppose science and that we DO want to do good in this world?
Source: Terra Incognita: Columbus, Islamic discoveries and perpetuating ignorance

 

[TankMan]

Quranic Ayat 2:256 is talking about unbeliever who has not yet excepted islam but once you except islam then their is no turning back.
the second ayat 4:137 is talking about hypocrite who except faith then they reject faith but not publicly but in their heart so god is telling us that he is not going to forgive or guide them.

the hadees is authentic and right.



"Say (Muhammad it is) truth from the Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, LET him disbelieve." [18:29]
''There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error..." [2:256]
"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--G'd will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way." [4:137] (An apostate could not have enjoyed the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if the punishment was death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving.)

Source: Many Muslims in Europe publicly abandoning Islam, becoming Christians

What are you trying to say here, exactly? A hypocrite who apostasizes is an apostate. There is no part of that ayah or the rest of the surah that backs your claim that it is about people who reject faith 'but not publicly'.

Surat Al-Baqarah [2:253-259] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
Surat An-Nisa' [4:134-140] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم
You can see more context and see multiple, slightly different translations in this website, if you're interested. None of those translations back what you're saying here.

 

[Dubious]

What I say is proven true every day: Islam is only what Muslims actually do

Your quote is molded to daily life people but not to a way of life known as Islam

@Malghani @TankMan

 

[Mughal-Prince]

RADICAL ISLAM their is nothing like that it's simply faked to use its followers for use against potential threat from Muslims to kept them engage. It's a product of west and has nothing to do with Islam but Muslims who don't know about their religion.

 

[Pakistani E]

Proclaim, O Prophet, O mankind the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord. Then whoso follows the guidance, follows it only for the good of his own self, and whoso errs does so only to his own detriment. I am not appointed a keeper over you (10: 109).

Any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is not worthy of a second look. The only ones who misuse them are the clergy desperate to keep the ignorant flock in line.

 

[Pakistani E]

As for those who are quoting that hadhith about death as punishment need to research a bit more themselves instead of just googling apostasy in Islam. That hadith you keep posting also contradicts other hadiths, how can we even give it precedence over the Qur'an?

Bokhari has related, on the authority of Braa bin Aazib, that in the treaty of Hudaibiyyah, the Holy Prophet, peace be on him, agreed with the pagans of Mecca that if anyone of them became a Muslim and came to Medina, he would be returned to the Meccans, but that if a Muslim departed from Medina and joined the Meccans, they would not be under obligation to return him to the Holy Prophet (Bokhari, Egyptians edition, Vol. II, p. 76).

The obligation undertaken by the Holy Prophet in the treaty that a Muslim who departed from Medina and joined the Meccans, which means that if he repudiated Islam and went and identified himself with the Meccans, he would not be restored to the Holy Prophet, also establishes that apostacy was not punishable as an offence. Had it been punishable as an offence, the Holy Prophet would not have accepted this term of the treaty. He would have told the Meccan envoy, who represented the Meccans at Hudaibiyyah, that he could not agree to a term which was contrary to the divine command that an apostate was punishable with death. Nor did any of the Companions of the Holy Prophet protest against this term of the treaty that it was inconsistent with a Divine commandment.

 

[Schutz]

They arent joining Christianity, alot are just staying Muslim in name but generally live a non religious life, im not going to use the word atheist because thats a pointless label, we are born godless and I dont think I should have to tell people that I am (insert label) because I am how I am born, a human being. Many Muslims over here have abandoned religious thought and just live the life THEY want, not following guidelines from 2000 years ago.

 

[pak-marine]

Muslim community or indivisuals must be under immense pressure after they have ran out of arguments after what
sissies of ISIS did to people in irak and syria

 

[KingMamba]

Your source is Times of India, enough said. Also Islam is the fastest growing religion in Europe. It has the highest conversion rate (atheism isn't religion). Not saying people aren't leaving Islam but the number of people leaving Christianity (mainly becoming atheists) is far greater than that of any other religion.

Also the news is more of a propaganda and thus has been evolved that way.

Might as well consider atheists their own distinct religion, their religious rites involve annoying everybody else.