Mani Shankar Aiyar visits Srinagar hospital to meet victims, gets thrown out by protesters

[Hellfire]

I think they should deny the treatment also because it is from Indian tax payers money.

You need to review that statement

By logic as per constitution of India Article 343, Hindi was supposed to be the national language and the link language having replaced English by 1965.

What happened of that I wonder? Should we simply shoot those who opposed its implementation? That shall be whole of South India.

Another option is to take a leaf out of UAE's dealing with dissent and just revoking the passport of these people and putting them on ship, kick them out.

You can try that. Works in UAE. Dissent is non existent except in four walls of a room.

You are low on logic as ever. Jats agitation was for some demand. Jats never said that nobody except Jats shall be allowed in any particular area. This is an anti India movement emerged from the hater towards Hindus. Every thing of Hindus is Haram for them that why not Hindu money and Hindu doctors and Hindu medicine.

Didn't disturb the grey cells one bit, did you?

Agitation and Bandh as conducted by Jats was an anti national act the moment it crossed over into the domain of violence, rampant looting and destruction of public and private property as also few rapes.

Peaceful protest is a right of every citizen after due permission from the district authorities. The protest as above is against law as legalized by the Supreme Court of India.

Period

 

[Surya 1]

Actually i have said this before , i shall say it again , this is a fatherless protest!!! no political party has a hand in this. peoples anger erupted. The state govt failed to act by not reaching out to people ,they ended up becoming the enemy.
The govt has now started to reach out , hopefully it will be resolved soon . Its been a long time since curfew was imposed for such a while.

They are radicalized. They shall be inimical to you irrespective of whatever you do for them. What we did not do for them in flood. The real reason lies in money pumped in valley to radicalized them on Wahhabi pattern. Ask Sufi Muslims in valley. They are very much terrified too. If you give them separate kashmir, they will kill each other. They have only one destiny and that is their end. They can not study or do anything good. They would like to kill and get kill. We have no option left. Our government deal with utmost restrain. However, it is useless and they will try to do all this again and again leaving you with very low options.

 

[T90TankGuy]

You need to review that statement

By logic as per constitution of India Article 343, Hindi was supposed to be the national language and the link language having replaced English by 1965.

What happened of that I wonder? Should we simply shoot those who opposed its implementation? That shall be whole of South India.

Another option is to take a leaf out of UAE's dealing with dissent and just revoking the passport of these people and putting them one ship, kick them out.

You can try that. Works in UAE. Dissent is non existent except in four walls of a room.




Didn't disturb the grey cells one bit, did you?

Agitation and Bandh as conducted by Jats was an anti national act the moment it crossed over into the domain of violence, rampant looting and destruction of public and private property as also few rapes.

Peaceful protest is a right of every citizen after due permission from the district authorities. The protest as above is against law as legalized by the Supreme Court of India.

Period

Buddy why are you trying to debate with this kid? i have seen his posts , they are devoid of logic , filled with rhetoric.
rather than raise my BP i just ignore them .

 

[Surya 1]

You need to review that statement

By logic as per constitution of India Article 343, Hindi was supposed to be the national language and the link language having replaced English by 1965.

What happened of that I wonder? Should we simply shoot those who opposed its implementation? That shall be whole of South India.

Another option is to take a leaf out of UAE's dealing with dissent and just revoking the passport of these people and putting them one ship, kick them out.

You can try that. Works in UAE. Dissent is non existent except in four walls of a room.




Didn't disturb the grey cells one bit, did you?

Agitation and Bandh as conducted by Jats was an anti national act the moment it crossed over into the domain of violence, rampant looting and destruction of public and private property as also few rapes.

Peaceful protest is a right of every citizen after due permission from the district authorities. The protest as above is against law as legalized by the Supreme Court of India.

Period

Your language related Argument is a BS and do not require and response.

So far a s other argument is concern, you need to look into their demand and their act. What is their demand? Does it justify throwing petrol bombs on security forces? If they do not allow some one to visit them because he or she is an indian is too much hate for India. I simply said that why did you not boycott indian medicine and indian money as well.

 

[I.R.A]

Actually i have said this before , i shall say it again , this is a fatherless protest!!! no political party has a hand in this. peoples anger erupted. The state govt failed to act by not reaching out to people ,they ended up becoming the enemy.
The govt has now started to reach out , hopefully it will be resolved soon . Its been a long time since curfew was imposed for such a while.

It is always difficult to control a fatherless protest, you don't know who to talk to. However, what surprises me India being a country of millions of Muslims still could not understand why Muslims go to a funeral of a Muslim. A sign of disconnect, which is proven by how Modi tried to address problem by diverting attention to totally irrelevant people and a totally irrelevant area. Its like people of Kashmir should not protest and worry because we think people of Pakistan in Balochistan are treated the same way. And Indians go gaga on these statements.

And honestly as long as you have majority of Indians who think the way they think it won't take long before most Kashmiris start asking for freedom, this protest would be nothing in front of that one.

 

[Surya 1]

Buddy why are you trying to debate with this kid? i have seen his posts , they are devoid of logic , filled with rhetoric.
rather than raise my BP i just ignore them .

You require a swami ramdev Yoga treatment to keep your BP in control which goes high in very small matters such as blog discussions.

 

[911]

You need to review that statement

By logic as per constitution of India Article 343, Hindi was supposed to be the national language and the link language having replaced English by 1965.

What happened of that I wonder? Should we simply shoot those who opposed its implementation? That shall be whole of South India.

Another option is to take a leaf out of UAE's dealing with dissent and just revoking the passport of these people and putting them one ship, kick them out.

You can try that. Works in UAE. Dissent is non existent except in four walls of a room.




Didn't disturb the grey cells one bit, did you?

Agitation and Bandh as conducted by Jats was an anti national act the moment it crossed over into the domain of violence, rampant looting and destruction of public and private property as also few rapes.

Peaceful protest is a right of every citizen after due permission from the district authorities. The protest as above is against law as legalized by the Supreme Court of India.

Period

You know the ground realities in Kashmir. So i want to ask you few questions.

It all started when Burhan Wani along with other terrorists was killed, Asiya Andrabi provided support for peaceful protesters and media helped in making it a BIG NEWS, peaceful protesters who in hundreds threw stones (even grenades) at security forces, drown them into the river, looted guns from police stations, which forced security forces to retaliate. This is what is known to a non-Kashmiri.

Since you might know more details i want to ask you

1] Is all this i wrote true? Or that BJP-PDP is responsible for what is happening in Kashmir?

2] Does a certain section of media milking from the situation by showing their sympathy towards peaceful protesters and projecting it as a failure of BJP-PDP govt.?

3] Why did security forces shoot peaceful protesters with pellets?

4] If people like Asiya Andrabi who fuel saperatism with a mix of religious sentiments allowed to do whatever in the name of dissent, intellectuals especially from Kashmir who have penetrated the media and are saperatist themselves, allowed to give support to that dissent. Then how is Indian state ever going to end the saperatist sentiments?

5] Is it a bad idea to shutdown phone lines and internet just to deny agitators the support they need?

6] Is it true that our intelligence agencies are today weaker in front of foreign funded intellectuals who are dictating the Kashmir issue?

7] Your solution on how Kashmir issue is ever going to settle ( since plebiscite is no longer a choice)?

I hope this is not much to ask.

 

[Hellfire]

Your language related Argument is a BS and do not require and response.

So far a s other argument is concern, you need to look into their demand and their act. What is their demand? Does it justify throwing petrol bombs on security forces? If they do not allow some one to visit them because he or she is an indian is too much hate for India. I simply said that why did you not boycott indian medicine and indian money as well.

Rationality is something one works Hard to loose. You have done a commendable job I must say, keep at it.

@jbgt90 you have to concede that he has developed it into an art.

 

[Hellfire]

1] Is all this i wrote true? Or that BJP-PDP is responsible for what is happening in Kashmir?

You have to eye the situation from the actions of the elected state government. The Central government is not involved in grass root actions.

I suggest you go through the link below and then we will consider the above question

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-proper-intel-inputs/articleshow/53762667.cms

2] Does a certain section of media milking from the situation by showing their sympathy towards peaceful protesters and projecting it as a failure of BJP-PDP govt.?

I shall give you a different perspective. What stops the BJP-PDP and indeed the GoI from speaking on facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, which is apparent from stupidities being posted by some Indians on Kashmir issue?

I will give you the smallest example. The official communique of BJP and GOI over the firing incident in Sambha last year, and all the channels including Times Now and Arnab Goswami, referred to the incident as a ceasefire violation. It was violation of an International Boundary, an act of war if you want to be hysterical about it.

Are you aware that as per Karachi Agreement of 1949, the area is International Border today as ceasefire was applicable from MANAWAR in Poonch, which is due north of Jammu-Kathua-Sambha till Siachen? That is what today is the LOC after Shimla Agreement and prior to it was known as CFL or Ceasefire Line.

Please read it up. Ignorance is rampant. Pakistanis realized their mistake and now refer to the region as working boundary in order to renege on the Karachi Agreement. It is the biggest diplomatic blunder on their side and ours, it is one in a long chain of blunders.

3] Why did security forces shoot peaceful protesters with pellets?

Because the Government of J&K and indeed the MHA, has not provided with less lethal but more effective measures at crowd control to the JKP and CAPFs.

4] If people like Asiya Andrabi who fuel saperatism with a mix of religious sentiments allowed to do whatever in the name of dissent, intellectuals especially from Kashmir who have penetrated the media and are saperatist themselves, allowed to give support to that dissent. Then how is Indian state ever going to end the saperatist sentiments?

What prevents the political class from undertaking talks with Pakistan irrespective of the provocation while implementing reforms and governance efforts at grass roots? What stops the center from acting against proven corrupt politicians? First you need to break the nexus of politicians and Hurriyat. And introduce governance at grass roots.

5] Is it a bad idea to shutdown phone lines and internet just to deny agitators the support they need?

That is a security requirement. How is it relevant?

6] Is it true that our intelligence agencies are today weaker in front of foreign funded intellectuals who are dictating the Kashmir issue?

Nope.

7] Your solution on how Kashmir issue is ever going to settle ( since plebiscite is no longer a choice)?

I hope this is not much to ask.

Big topic. Beyond my pay grade

 

[911]

You have to eye the situation from the actions of the elected state government. The Central government is not involved in grass root actions.

I suggest you go through the link below and then we will consider the above question

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-proper-intel-inputs/articleshow/53762667.cms

Is this not what most intellectuals want? Backing down of brutal Army completely.

I shall give you a different perspective. What stops the BJP-PDP and indeed the GoI from speaking on facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, which is apparent from stupidities being posted by some Indians on Kashmir issue?

You can say 'no' if you don't agree that certain section of media is milking the situation for political purpose. The fact that you know BJP-PDP is restraining from speaking the facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, you know the facts, which is precisely my question, what facts?

I will give you the smallest example. The official communique of BJP and GOI over the firing incident in Sambha last year, and all the channels including Times Now and Arnab Goswami, referred to the incident as a ceasefire violation. It was violation of an International Boundary, an act of war if you want to be hysterical about it.

Are you aware that as per Karachi Agreement of 1949, the area is International Border today as ceasefire was applicable from MANAWAR in Poonch, which is due north of Jammu-Kathua-Sambha till Siachen? That is what today is the LOC after Shimla Agreement and prior to it was known as CFL or Ceasefire Line.

Please read it up. Ignorance is rampant. Pakistanis realized their mistake and now refer to the region as working boundary in order to renege on the Karachi Agreement. It is the biggest diplomatic blunder on their side and ours, it is one in a long chain of blunders.

Last year relations with Pakistan were good so its possible Times Now from inputs from government/intelligence tried to sideline it as ceasefire violation. Yes firing on IB is an act of war when its repeated and intentional. And since it was a blunder from Pakistan's side should India had started war or should media had cried out loud when relations with Pakistan were seemingly good? Maybe.

Because the Government of J&K and indeed the MHA, has not provided with less lethal but more effective measures at crowd control to the JKP and CAPFs.

Although my question was what led security forces to use any kind of force at all, though you raised a valid point that this governemt could not come up with more effective ways for crowd control, just like previous governments to stop the peaceful protesters from attacking security forces.

What prevents the political class from undertaking talks with Pakistan irrespective of the provocation

Its due to the lack of trust and interest of solving issue from Pakistani side. A peaceful & prosper Kashmir is not in Pakistan's interest.

What stops the center from acting against proven corrupt politicians?

The fact that certain section of media would project it as political assasination and vendetta.

So again. What stops intelligence agencies from arresting Asiya Andrabi and intellectuals indirectly fueling saperatism in the name of dissent?

That is a security requirement. How is it relevant?

Its relevent. Are you sure? According to some its brutality against peaceful protesters.

Nope

It seems so.

Big topic. Beyond my pay grade

Sometimes solutions are very simple but they are made complicated by those who want them to be complicated.

 

[Hellfire]

Is this not what most intellectuals want? Backing down of brutal Army completely.

The point was pertinent to the acts of the political class, a perpetuation of flawed and myopic policies by the Indian state in Kashmir. You are confusing two separate entities - the intellectual and the politician. While the former can vocalise in terms of so called seminars and Op Ed, the latter is the greater determinant of the actual position and situation on ground.

I reiterate, it is a political decision which resulted in the situation above. Akin to Gujral withdrawing the forces in 1996-97 when the valley had respite from terror briefly.

What is pertinent is a continuation of a flawed policy wherein the pressure of the security forces is eased off before a political settlement.

The mandate of Indian Army is to bring down the level of violence to a level where a political process is sustained. The forces achieved it long back.

You can say 'no' if you don't agree that certain section of media is milking the situation for political purpose. The fact that you know BJP-PDP is restraining from speaking the facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, you know the facts, which is precisely my question, what facts?

That is apparent. The Indian Media is trash, there is no other opinion to it as far as I am concerned.

The facts are:

1. The Instrument of Accession is legalised under Para 3 sub-para a of Indian Independence Act of 1947, the same that legalises the formation of Indian and Pakistani Dominion.

2. India gave a demand of plebiscite as part of condition for acceptance of Instrument of Accession to the Maharaja of Kashmir.

3. It was on insistence of India that Maharaja freed the opposition leader Sheikh Abdullah who was the recognised representative of People of Kashmir fighting the Maharaja.

4. Maharaja sought concurrence of Sheikh Abdullah at the time of Accord.

5. The Commitment of Special Status as an Article of Constitution of India is a part of condition of accession. As such, abrogation of same without a consensus of all concerned will be tantamount to reneging on your commitments as a Nation State.

6. That the autonomy, the oft maligned word in media for J&K, is not limited only to J&K but is also inherent in the latest peace accord with NSCN-IM signed by Modi Government.

7. The Karachi Agreement of 1949 recognises the border in Jammu-Sambha-Kathua as International Border, and any violation across it should be responded with overwhelming force and not calibrated force as it is an encroachment of the national sovereignty.

These are just a few of the facts which are never highlighted by any government in power thereby misleading the Indian Public as to what the facts are.

Last year relations with Pakistan were good so its possible Times Now from inputs from government/intelligence tried to sideline it as ceasefire violation. Yes firing on IB is an act of war when its repeated and intentional. And since it was a blunder from Pakistan's side should India had started war or should media had cried out loud when relations with Pakistan were seemingly good? Maybe.

There was an immense need to address the issue for Indian public correctly. Violation of IB should be projected as such. Failure to do so is tantamount to acceptance of lying.

So again. What stops intelligence agencies from arresting Asiya Andrabi and intellectuals indirectly fueling saperatism in the name of dissent?

The lack of will power of the Indian state. The politicians, the people. Simple.

 

[911]

The point was pertinent to the acts of the political class, a perpetuation of flawed and myopic policies by the Indian state in Kashmir. You are confusing two separate entities - the intellectual and the politician. While the former can vocalise in terms of so called seminars and Op Ed, the latter is the greater determinant of the actual position and situation on ground.

I reiterate, it is a political decision which resulted in the situation above. Akin to Gujral withdrawing the forces in 1996-97 when the valley had respite from terror briefly.

What is pertinent is a continuation of a flawed policy wherein the pressure of the security forces is eased off before a political settlement.

The mandate of Indian Army is to bring down the level of violence to a level where a political process is sustained. The forces achieved it long back.

Intellectuals and activists do make an impact on policies but ofc its always politicians who take decisions. That means BJP-PDP is responsible for this mess. This was bad decision indeed.

What is the need of 700000 soldiers ( @American Pakistani )in Kashmir?
http://scroll.in/article/812010/do-...tants-kashmiri-rights-activist-khurram-parvez

That is apparent. The Indian Media is trash, there is no other opinion to it as far as I am concerned.

The facts are:

1. The Instrument of Accession is legalised under Para 3 sub-para a of Indian Independence Act of 1947, the same that legalises the formation of Indian and Pakistani Dominion.

2. India gave a demand of plebiscite as part of condition for acceptance of Instrument of Accession to the Maharaja of Kashmir.

3. It was on insistence of India that Maharaja freed the opposition leader Sheikh Abdullah who was the recognised representative of People of Kashmir fighting the Maharaja.

4. Maharaja sought concurrence of Sheikh Abdullah at the time of Accord.

5. The Commitment of Special Status as an Article of Constitution of India is a part of condition of accession. As such, abrogation of same without a consensus of all concerned will be tantamount to reneging on your commitments as a Nation State.

6. That the autonomy, the oft maligned word in media for J&K, is not limited only to J&K but is also inherent in the latest peace accord with NSCN-IM signed by Modi Government.

7. The Karachi Agreement of 1949 recognises the border in Jammu-Sambha-Kathua as International Border, and any violation across it should be responded with overwhelming force and not calibrated force as it is an encroachment of the national sovereignty.

These are just a few of the facts which are never highlighted by any government in power thereby misleading the Indian Public as to what the facts are.

Its irrelevant, i didn't asked why Kashmir issue exists. How did we reach here:

2] Does a certain section of media milking from the situation by showing their sympathy towards peaceful protesters and projecting it as a failure of BJP-PDP govt.?

I shall give you a different perspective. What stops the BJP-PDP and indeed the GoI from speaking on facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, which is apparent from stupidities being posted by some Indians on Kashmir issue?

You can say 'no' if you don't agree that certain section of media is milking the situation for political purpose. The fact that you know BJP-PDP is restraining from speaking the facts that majority of Indian public is unaware of, you know the facts, which is precisely my question, what facts?

I was asking about current situation. Anyways if you don't know its not a problem. I just asked because you probably know more than someone who gets to know the situtation through media.

There was an immense need to address the issue for Indian public correctly. Violation of IB should be projected as such. Failure to do so is tantamount to acceptance of lying.

True. Media-Politicians nexus has always been there and on many occasions media has lied previously (Ishrat, Fake encounters, etc etc). I guess media should always project truth, even if its against the diplomacy.

The lack of will power of the Indian state. The politicians, the people. Simple.

Wrong. The will has always been there. Its the inability of Indian state to do anything about it. NGOs, activists, intellectuals, etc all are there for a purpose. They will never let saperatism die. And if you don't let these organisations work, your country will be considered backward . Only if India was as strong as US that not outside interference could do jack about things when it comes to national interests.

 

[Hellfire]

Intellectuals and activists do make an impact on policies but ofc its always politicians who take decisions. That means BJP-PDP is responsible for this mess. This was bad decision indeed.

Not only BJP-PDP, but all parties. The continuation of flawed policy is a fact. It needs a significant revision. Incidentally, when you asked what is the solution, I am waiting for @Rain Man to start a thread he has planned. There is no single solution to the issue, but a complex series of steps needed to be taken to reach a solution.

If you plan to start a thread, you need to involve people like @Joe Shearer who can put a multi-dimensional perspective to work in this issue.

What is the need of 700000 soldiers ( @American Pakistani )in Kashmir?
http://scroll.in/article/812010/do-...tants-kashmiri-rights-activist-khurram-parvez

Today it is back to 700000? Down by 100000, from a few days back?
Oh he will ask you to ask Musharraf the justification of the figure?

Its irrelevant, i didn't asked why Kashmir issue exists. How did we reach here:

The ignorance of our own commitments. When I listed out just a couple of points, I did so in order to emphasise the precise attitude which you have demonstrated as being perhaps the main reason for our continuation of the mess. Why does the Kashmir issue exist? Either that the accession is illegal (which it is not), or the subsequent actions of Indian State allowed a situation wherein we have reached this situation.

Pertinent to note, the problem arose due to rigging of elections in J&K. The armed insurgency only came into being in 1989. Before that, valley was peaceful. Indeed, what changed? It is very easy to blame Pakistan, but can anyone tell why we, as a nation, failed to maintain the rule of law and democracy that we pride ourselves in, in Kashmir?

Hence, the points are as relevant (they are just a few) as they were always.

I was asking about current situation. Anyways if you don't know its not a problem. I just asked because you probably know more than someone who gets to know the situtation through media.

Frankly, I dropped off when I was replying to you (all to do with a heavy overnighter) hence you will find an abrupt cut off in reply earlier and I still am not sure what are you trying to ask/highlight. If you could be a bit clearer here.

Wrong. The will has always been there. Its the inability of Indian state to do anything about it. NGOs, activists, intellectuals, etc all are there for a purpose. They will never let saperatism die. And if you don't let these organisations work, your country will be considered backward . Only if India was as strong as US that not outside interference could do jack about things when it comes to national interests.

The will has been missing in the class where it matters - the politicians

I will request you to clarify what is it that you are implying. Am still confused as to what you are trying to portray/highlight here.

Thanks

 

[Joe Shearer]

Actually if one reads the article carefully then you see the mani along with others was kicked out for being "indian" not of a particular party .

"Reads the article carefully"? No REAL patriot on an Internet forum "reads the article carefully".

I think they should deny the treatment also because it is from Indian tax payers money.

Not really. The Indian tax payer pays direct taxes. This is out of indirect taxes. All pay it, those who consider themselves 'Indian' tax payers, those who do not, everyone.

We can't lay a claim on kashmir and then say the people living there are not our citizens therefore not entitled to treatment.
when the Jat agitation happened , did we say deny these people treatment just cuz they disagree with the establishment?

And far more violently, including raping people who had nothing to do with the agitation, for or against.

You are low on logic as ever. Jats agitation was for some demand. Jats never said that nobody except Jats shall be allowed in any particular area. This is an anti India movement emerged from the hater towards Hindus. Every thing of Hindus is Haram for them that why not Hindu money and Hindu doctors and Hindu medicine.

Don't bring your bigotry into discussions.

All right sir.

By telling me a person who need to see psychiatrist, You have demonstrated your maturity.

Nice way to exit when you loose argument.

He didn't lose the argument; he merely shut down a slanging match. There was nothing like an argument going on.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Serves him right,moron was shown his right place.

At least Hindus should support him on THIS occasion.

He was thrown out because he was Indian/Hindu. His political views do not matter.