What's new

“Make in India” for HAL trainer, import of Swiss trainer capped

SpArK

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
May 5, 2010
Messages
22,519
Reaction score
18
Country
India
Location
India
Sunday, 1 March 2015



by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1 March 2015


Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has prevailed over the Indian Air Force (IAF) in a long-running battle over the basic trainer aircraft on which IAF rookies will learn to fly.

Backing HAL and “Make in India”, the ministry of defence (MoD) ruled on Saturday that the IAF would have to buy the Hindustan Turbo Trainer – 40 (HTT-40), which HAL is developing in Bengaluru.

Until the HTT-40 is delivered, the IAF will make do with 75 PC-7 Mark II trainers it has already bought from Pilatus of Switzerland. Under an “Options Clause” of that contract, the purchase of 38 more Pilatus trainers was sanctioned on Saturday. These would cost about Swiss Francs 230 million (Rs 1,500 crore).

After a meeting of the MoD’s apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which arrived at this decision, a senior MoD official, briefing the media, said: “The DAC has ordered the IAF to order the HTT-40 in adequate number, to make this project commercially viable.”

The IAF has steadfastly opposed the HTT-40 project. As Business Standard revealed (July 29, 2013, “Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer”) then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, wrote to Antony, incorrectly claiming that the HTT-40 was costlier than the PC-7 Mk II.

HAL rebutted that claim, convincing the MoD that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 38.5 crore, compared to the Swiss Francs 6.09 million price of Pilatus trainer, which comes to Rs 39.5 crore. When life-cycle costs were factored in, the indigenous HTT-40 would be far cheaper over four decades of service.

Last month, Business Standard --- which has followed and reported this issue in detail--- revealed (February 14, “Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer”), that a key MoD procurement official had written to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar that the PC-7 Mark II trainer was actually far more expensive than had been originally assessed.

With the IAF digging in its heels and blocking funding, HAL has put Rs 300 crore of its own into the HTT-40. Senior project managers say the trainer is on track to fly this year, and enter service by 2017-18.

The DAC has ordered strict monitoring of the HTT-40 project, to guard against delays. “The progress of the project will be monitored by a Committee that will report regularly to the DAC”, said the MoD official who briefed the media.

IAF pilots undergo three stages of training. In basic training, or Stage-1, rookie pilots learn to fly on simple aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. They graduate to Stage-2 training on intermediate trainers like the Sitara, which HAL is developing. In Stage-3 training, which is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, pilots prepare to fly frontline IAF fighters.

With the navy and army air wings steadily expanding, these services are likely to buy their own HTT-40s, in case the trainer proves an unqualified success. HAL has also proposed the HTT-40 for import, positioning it as a weaponised light attack aircraft.

The IAF grounded its earlier basic trainer, the HPT-32, after a fatal crash in 2009 that killed two pilots. Experts say the HPT-32’s safety record did not warrant peremptory grounding of its 110-trainer fleet.

Over 30 years of flying, in which 2,000 IAF pilots were trained and the HPT-32 logged 400,000 hours, there have been 17 crashes in which 19 IAF pilots were killed.

While grounding the HPT-32, the IAF continues to fly the MiG-21, which has a far more worrying safety record. In Jun 2003, the IAF head, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy, told the media that 98 MiG-21 crashes had claimed 43 lives in 5,53,000 sorties between 1994-2003.

Over the years, according to MoD figures tabled in parliament, 482 IAF MiGs (of all types) have crashed, killing 171 IAF pilots, 8 other servicemen, and 39 civilians. Yet none of these fighters were grounded.

In another procurement decision on Saturday, the DAC okayed the tendering of a Rs 32,000 crore project to build 12 modern “mine counter measure vehicles”, or MCMVs, in India. Foreign shipyards will bid to partner Goa Shipyard Ltd in building these 600-1,000 tonne vessels that detect and defuse mines, which an enemy could deploy to deter movement of our commercial vessels and battleships. An earlier tender for these vessels was withdrawn amidst allegations of corruption.

In addition, the DAC cleared the Rs 533 crore purchase of one C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft from US company, Lockheed Martin, to replace one that crashed last year.


Broadsword: “Make in India” for HAL trainer, import of Swiss trainer capped
 
.
Sunday, 1 March 2015



by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 1 March 2015


Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has prevailed over the Indian Air Force (IAF) in a long-running battle over the basic trainer aircraft on which IAF rookies will learn to fly.

Backing HAL and “Make in India”, the ministry of defence (MoD) ruled on Saturday that the IAF would have to buy the Hindustan Turbo Trainer – 40 (HTT-40), which HAL is developing in Bengaluru.

Until the HTT-40 is delivered, the IAF will make do with 75 PC-7 Mark II trainers it has already bought from Pilatus of Switzerland. Under an “Options Clause” of that contract, the purchase of 38 more Pilatus trainers was sanctioned on Saturday. These would cost about Swiss Francs 230 million (Rs 1,500 crore).

After a meeting of the MoD’s apex Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which arrived at this decision, a senior MoD official, briefing the media, said: “The DAC has ordered the IAF to order the HTT-40 in adequate number, to make this project commercially viable.”

The IAF has steadfastly opposed the HTT-40 project. As Business Standard revealed (July 29, 2013, “Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer”) then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, wrote to Antony, incorrectly claiming that the HTT-40 was costlier than the PC-7 Mk II.

HAL rebutted that claim, convincing the MoD that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 38.5 crore, compared to the Swiss Francs 6.09 million price of Pilatus trainer, which comes to Rs 39.5 crore. When life-cycle costs were factored in, the indigenous HTT-40 would be far cheaper over four decades of service.

Last month, Business Standard --- which has followed and reported this issue in detail--- revealed (February 14, “Defence ministry official questions whether Pilatus was cheapest trainer”), that a key MoD procurement official had written to Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar that the PC-7 Mark II trainer was actually far more expensive than had been originally assessed.

With the IAF digging in its heels and blocking funding, HAL has put Rs 300 crore of its own into the HTT-40. Senior project managers say the trainer is on track to fly this year, and enter service by 2017-18.

The DAC has ordered strict monitoring of the HTT-40 project, to guard against delays. “The progress of the project will be monitored by a Committee that will report regularly to the DAC”, said the MoD official who briefed the media.

IAF pilots undergo three stages of training. In basic training, or Stage-1, rookie pilots learn to fly on simple aircraft like the PC-7 Mk I, and the HTT-40. They graduate to Stage-2 training on intermediate trainers like the Sitara, which HAL is developing. In Stage-3 training, which is done on Hawk advanced jet trainers, pilots prepare to fly frontline IAF fighters.

With the navy and army air wings steadily expanding, these services are likely to buy their own HTT-40s, in case the trainer proves an unqualified success. HAL has also proposed the HTT-40 for import, positioning it as a weaponised light attack aircraft.

The IAF grounded its earlier basic trainer, the HPT-32, after a fatal crash in 2009 that killed two pilots. Experts say the HPT-32’s safety record did not warrant peremptory grounding of its 110-trainer fleet.

Over 30 years of flying, in which 2,000 IAF pilots were trained and the HPT-32 logged 400,000 hours, there have been 17 crashes in which 19 IAF pilots were killed.

While grounding the HPT-32, the IAF continues to fly the MiG-21, which has a far more worrying safety record. In Jun 2003, the IAF head, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy, told the media that 98 MiG-21 crashes had claimed 43 lives in 5,53,000 sorties between 1994-2003.

Over the years, according to MoD figures tabled in parliament, 482 IAF MiGs (of all types) have crashed, killing 171 IAF pilots, 8 other servicemen, and 39 civilians. Yet none of these fighters were grounded.

In another procurement decision on Saturday, the DAC okayed the tendering of a Rs 32,000 crore project to build 12 modern “mine counter measure vehicles”, or MCMVs, in India. Foreign shipyards will bid to partner Goa Shipyard Ltd in building these 600-1,000 tonne vessels that detect and defuse mines, which an enemy could deploy to deter movement of our commercial vessels and battleships. An earlier tender for these vessels was withdrawn amidst allegations of corruption.

In addition, the DAC cleared the Rs 533 crore purchase of one C-130J Super Hercules transport aircraft from US company, Lockheed Martin, to replace one that crashed last year.


Broadsword: “Make in India” for HAL trainer, import of Swiss trainer capped
Stupid PR stunt.
 
.
...IAF should have actively taken part in making and promoting Indian built trainers..
...IAF want 'phoren' things like fighters...and other combat hardware...but it is expected out of them to promote & grow with the local made non combat hardwares...
..but being IAF, they want even their dog collors " made in phoren"
 
.
and what makes you think so , if IAF cant accept basic trainer from Indian make they deserve some serious spanking , when HAL is ready to complete project on time and already committed funds towards project there should be full backing from govt and IAF .
I'll post what I posted in the other thread about this:

A paper plane that has never flown and HAL has never bothered to develop for decades will be inducted alongside a proven machine (PC-7).

So now, for no reason other than tokenism, the IAF will be the only (modern) AF in the world operating two different types of BTT.

Right now all HAL has is a wooden mock up despite the fact Deepaks had been falling out of the skies killing young airmen and instructors for many years. Pilates saved the IAF a LOT of pain by delivering in the fast track manner they did and the PC-7 Mk.2 is a proven product.

Adding another BTT to the fleet is nothing but a PR stunt, what can the HTT-40 do the PC-7 can't do? Not a damn thing worth mentioning. By adding another type all you are doing is increasing the logistical headache for the IAF, increasing maintenance costs and duplicating services. This is not a pragmatic move but a blatant PR stunt and rewarding HAL's ineptitude.

...IAF should have actively taken part in making and promoting Indian built trainers..
...IAF want 'phoren' things like fighters...and other combat hardware...but it is expected out of them to promote & grow with the local made non combat hardwares...
..but being IAF, they want even their dog collors " made in phoren"
Yes, yes, so easy to blame the services but show me a pic of the HTT-40 flying and ready to be inducted, oh wait......


I guess the IAF should still be flying the Deepaks waiting for HAL to get off their backsides and deliver the HTT-40, to hell with all those lives that would be lost as a result.
 
. . .
Save a lot of money, as the article states.
I don't buy it because a few years ago HAL (knowing how much the IAF were paying for the PC-7) quoted a unit price for the HTT-40 higher than the PC-7. Additionally this comparison is flawed because they are comparing foreign made PC-7s to Indian made HTT-40s, the PC-7s could have been made in India and this was on the table. And tell me exactly how operating two DIFFERENT types of a/c for the exact same role is cost effective? The "saves us money" is a smoke screen the GoI/MoD will use to justify this utter stupidity. Now you will have to have two different stocks of spares, ground crews trained differently, instructors qualifying on two different types of a/c, a lack of continuity in the training between all IAF pilots etc etc

There is no other modern AF in the world who has two different types of BTTs, this is madness that I cannot even express fully.
 
.
you have to you dont have an option , for all foreign mal lovers govt has taken out big stick
This isn't an argument. Just saying Indian products >all foreign products is hardly a decent explanation.


Leave the jingoism and nationalism to on side, this move has actually hurt the Indian military, if you can't see that then that is your choice.
 
.
without giving boost to indigenous defense industry India cannot ever compete china , this is beyond ur understanding , keep enjoying halal food in uk

i would prefer make in india products all time even if expensive than established western mal
So to hell with the military that is disadvantaged by such politically motivated decisions?

Surely you can see this move comes at a cost and the ones bearing the cost, as always, are the military not their poetical masters who make these decisions.
 
.
Now onus will be on HAL. There should be severe penalty clause if there is further delay. Two reasons, first they blocked the trainer import for so much time and second trainer still not ready for flight. Lets see their commitment whether they can fly this year with promised equipments.
 
.
Now be ready for usual excuses and whining from HAL once they delay this projects followed by huge cost overruns. BC they are yet to deliver HJT-36 even after a decade and crying for another project.
 
.
i would have agreed if HAL would have not guaranteed timelines for HTT 40 , but they are committed
Oh they are committed are they? Where was this commitment when young IAF pilots and instructors were being killed and paralysed as a result of Deepak BTT crashes? HAL only begun work on the HTT-40 AFTER the IAF was FORCED to go for a foreign BTT.

till time HTT 40 comes you have your foreign mal in service and after that made in india rules

The foreign BTT (PC-7) will be in service in larger numbers than the HTT-40 and the two will operate alongside one another, it is hardly like the HTT-40 is replacing the foreign BTTs which means added costs and operational headaches for the IAF but you are simply choosing to ignore this blatant fact.
 
.
as these trainers can be armed for patrol and anti naxal ops
The GoI doesn't use airpower in the anti-nadal fight so this isn't going to happen and thus an entirely unusable feature.

apart from iaf coast guard , paramilitary and army will be customers of armed variants too
The Coast guard, seriously? They aren't interested in this neither are any of the CAPFs or the IA. Probably the IN will go for this as their BTT in the future when they expand their training program, right now IN pilots are trained in the IAF academy for basic flight training, in the long term this is a capability the IN wants to being in-house.

roi jaa tan kari jaa type itthe kuch nahi hone mundeya , chalni tan sarkar di , made in india rules foreign mal jaa bhul
Just saying something doesn't make it true. You have to justify your statements.
 
.
han foreign Swiss mall which itself was bought as a scam',
Bought as a scam? Are you kidding me? It was bought after the IAF's (HAL made) Deepak BTT fleet was grounded after years of safety issues and having cost the lives of many pilots.If the PC-7 Mk.2 hadn't been procured and fast track deliveries made the IAF would STILL be without a BTT, don't be a moron by making such outrageous comments.
 
.
and due to this deal many iaf generals got their swiss holidays , go do research on this scam before blabbering here kid.
What are you talking about? What scam? Where is the evidence for this claim? No one in any official capacity has raised issue with this purchase. The PC-7 was procured after being found to be the cheapest bid in an open tender and they delivered on a fast-track basis which has saved the IAF a lot of issues. The amount of good this procurement has made can not be understated and you are against it jus because it is foreign, tell me where the made in India HTT-40 was the whole time? Tell me where it is today?

Because it is STILL not ready the GoI has ordered 38 MORE foreign BTTs, or didn't you notice?
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom