Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[Gandhi G in da house]

Indian Navy is discussing with Boeing to buy Advanced Super Hornet. Don't dream about Russian aircraft anymore. Your military leadership ruled out Russian option.
MMRCA V2.0
Gripen Vs F-21

I'm assuming F-21 will win the competition based TASL advocacy.

For Indian Navy
Rafale M vs F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III

I'm assuming Super Hornet as your Navy may not spend same amount of money as IAF.

Why not Rafale ??

 

[polanski]

Why not Rafale ??

Can you afford to manufacture 100 plus Rafale jets in India? Do you the life cycle cost of 85 Tejas? Your government disclosed £25B for Tejas.

Rafale would cost you £50B or may be more for the life cycle of the Jets.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Can you afford to manufacture 100 plus Rafale jets in India? Do you the life cycle cost of 85 Tejas? Your government disclosed £25B for Tejas.

Rafale would cost you £50B or may be more for the life cycle of the Jets.

Hmmm.. why do you think the IAF wont buy F 18 superhornet ?

 

[polanski]

Hmmm.. why do you think the IAF wont buy F 18 superhornet ?

I don't believe IAF will buy Super Hornet. It doesn't make sense for them although EA-18 Growler is the premier Antidote to S-400. EA-18 Growler and Super Hornet makes sense for IN. BTW your Navy chief is interested in Queen Elizabeth class aircraft Carrier. so I am guessing he may select either Super Hornet, EA-18 Growler or the F-35B. The US already said that F-35B is on the table if India selects F-21.
As someone said already, India is no longer banana republic that they can't afford American weapons. Russian fighter jets are out of India once and for all.

 

[Novice09]

Why not Rafale ??

Too Expensive to operate... fuel hungry...
GoI is trying very hard to push for 180+ Rafale jets (IAF+IN) but ON ITS OWN TERMS (TOT + Local Manufacturing + Local overhauling facilities) to bring down the cost SIGNIFICANTLY... and French are ACTING SMART as of now...
Someone told me - "IF deal is not worked out AS PER INDIAN DRAFT... get ready for 36 Rafale, 100+ F 21 and F 18... 95% chances for 2nd"...
The only problem he has is the UNPREDICTABILITY and SECRECY under which Modi government works...

On a side note... IAF is really happy with the performance of Tejas and now they are backing it up... someone from Sulur told me this...

I don't believe IAF will buy Super Hornet. It doesn't make sense for them although EA-18 Growler is the premier Antidote to S-400. EA-18 Growler and Super Hornet makes sense for IN. BTW your Navy chief is interested in Queen Elizabeth class aircraft Carrier. so I am guessing he may select either Super Hornet, EA-18 Growler or the F-35B. The US already said that F-35B is on the table if India selects F-21.
As someone said already, India is no longer banana republic that they can't afford American weapons. Russian fighter jets are out of India once and for all.

Russian Jets are CHEAP TO BUY... Expensive to maintain with LOW serviceability... Russian and Swedish jets are completely out of the race... very minuscule chance for EF... F-21 or Rafale for IAF... F-18 or Rafale for IN...

 

[BON PLAN]

Indian Navy is discussing with Boeing to buy Advanced Super Hornet. Don't dream about Russian aircraft anymore. Your military leadership ruled out Russian option.
MMRCA V2.0
Gripen Vs F-21

I'm assuming F-21 will win the competition based TASL advocacy.

For Indian Navy
Rafale M vs F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III

I'm assuming Super Hornet as your Navy may not spend same amount of money as IAF.

LOL.

F21 is just another F16 avatar. It is black listed in India. Game over.

SH18 is a old horse, even in a block IV or V.... the latest swisss eval, this year, show that SH18 is low agile than legacy F18. It is heavier but with less load than Rafale. It's just a stop gap fighter, so are the capacity.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Russian Jets are CHEAP TO BUY... Expensive to maintain with LOW serviceability... Russian and Swedish jets are completely out of the race... very minuscule chance for EF... F-21 or Rafale for IAF... F-18 or Rafale for IN...

F-21 is F 16 only. Pakistanis have been flying these planes for so long now. why would we buy that.

 

[BON PLAN]

GoI is trying very hard to push for 180+ Rafale jets (IAF+IN) but ON ITS OWN TERMS (TOT + Local Manufacturing + Local overhauling facilities) to bring down the cost SIGNIFICANTLY... and French are ACTING SMART as of now...
Someone told me - "IF deal is not worked out AS PER INDIAN DRAFT... get ready for 36 Rafale, 100+ F 21 and F 18... 95% chances for 2nd"...

The french are the sole to be able to give you a high level of ToT (because 100% of the plane is french).
Local manufacturing : a factory is already built, with some groung to increase it. It's in the pipe.
Overhauling : of course. With a small fleet (36) it's too costly, but with a 100+ fleet, it's natural.

I think the french proposal can't be compete by any other competitor. US will never give you a high level of ToT.

F21 is already out of the game. Now too old...

My opinion : more Rafale in the IAF. The game remains open for Navy (SH18 is heavier, less agile, it's another plane in the inventary, but the weapons range of SH is very impressive and Rafale one can't match it).

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

The french are the sole to be able to give you a high level of ToT (because 100% of the plane is french).
Local manufacturing : a factory is already built, with some groung to increase it. It's in the pipe.
Overhauling : of course. With a small fleet (36) it's too costly, but with a 100+ fleet, it's natural.

I think the french proposal can't be compete by any other competitor. US will never give you a high level of ToT.

F21 is already out of the game. Now too old...

My opinion : more Rafale in the IAF. The game remains open for Navy (SH18 is heavier, less agile, it's another plane in the inventary, but the weapons range of SH is very impressive and Rafale one can't match it).

Just make the Rafale cheaper man. We are buying so many. Let's make life easier for both of us.

 

[BON PLAN]

Just make the Rafale cheaper man. We are buying so many. Let's make life easier for both of us.

To achieve that, Dassault and Reliance are doing all their best so as to produce a maximum of the plane in India.
If the cost can't be cut so deeply as you want, at least the money will stay mainly in India, and will help to built a strong and competitive private aero cluster so as to challenge HAL.

 

[BringHarmony]

To achieve that, Dassault and Reliance are doing all their best so as to produce a maximum of the plane in India.
If the cost can't be cut so deeply as you want, at least the money will stay mainly in India, and will help to built a strong and competitive private aero cluster so as to challenge HAL.

I wonder why Indians have such a massive hard-on on "Technology". @Nilgiri Rest of Indians here, any comments?

Hint : Its not the technology that you need.

 

[Nilgiri]

I wonder why Indians have such a massive hard-on on "Technology". @Nilgiri Rest of Indians here, any comments?

Hint : Its not the technology that you need.

Simple, we want to replicate what we have with ISRO in many more fields over time (on top of keep improving ISRO). France is a good proven partner in ISRO story actually...so make sense we choose them intrinsically for lot more things now.

There is good capacity, and direction is following now....you can look up SJR science output numbers and trends.

We also prefer to work with partners (and systematically prioritise and fork out the coin and mutual interactions) rather than hack and steal IP or retroactively force IP handover from them outright and create some (coming home to roost now) negative long term perception for short to mid term ruthless gain. That is more hallmark for brittle all or nothing autocracies and totalitarian types.

 

[BringHarmony]

Simple, we want to replicate what we have with ISRO in many more fields over time (on top of keep improving ISRO). France is a good proven partner in ISRO story actually...so make sense we choose them intrinsically for lot more things now.

There is good capacity, and direction is following now....you can look up SJR science output numbers and trends.

We also prefer to work with partners (and systematically prioritise and fork out the coin and mutual interactions) rather than hack and steal IP or retroactively force IP handover from them outright and create some (coming home to roost now) negative long term perception for short to mid term ruthless gain. That is more hallmark for brittle all or nothing autocracies and totalitarian types.

Did it ever occur to Indians that perhaps, just perhaps, its not the technology which is holding you folks back in getting access to the desired platforms and weapons?

I mean -- take a look at the relatively simple process of procuring fighters. Your entire tender and delivery took about 20 years. From initial requirements : in 2001 or so to the delivery of first fighter in 2019 or 20. If you folks would have bought the production lines of Mirage 2000 in 2001 or so, outright when France was starting to move to Rafale in numbers, by now you would have a large number of Mirage 2000s flying and replacing unreliable museum pieces like Mig-21. May be upgraded.

Upshot is : perhaps you guys need to learn how to do project or program management properly and NOT exactly the technology. Because going by the timelines you folks take, by the time you will fully absorb any technology, it will be outdated!

 

[Nilgiri]

Did it ever occur to Indians that perhaps, just perhaps, its not the technology which is holding you folks back in getting access to the desired platforms and weapons?

I mean -- take a look at the relatively simple process of procuring fighters. Your entire tender and delivery took about 20 years. From initial requirements : in 2001 or so to the delivery of first fighter in 2019 or 20. If you folks would have bought the production lines of Mirage 2000 in 2001 or so, outright when France was starting to move to Rafale in numbers, by now you would have a large number of Mirage 2000s flying and replacing unreliable museum pieces like Mig-21. May be upgraded.

Upshot is : perhaps you guys need to learn how to do project or program management properly and NOT exactly the technology. Because going by the timelines you folks take, by the time you will fully absorb any technology, it will be outdated!

A lot of things "occur" to us...courtesy of thought process in any human population....so not sure what you imply there. The first basic one that occurs to us is we dont like to be a hive mind or encourage that sort of thing, so we prefer debate and this creates dissonance in different direction too....but also lot of gaps for entrenched interests to dwell and exploit status quo stuff from.

But it needs to be aired out well to be solved is the conclusion we generally all come to....rather than put sheer blind trust in some brittle top down autocratic method. Too much risk inherent in that system and it doesn't work well for us from history.

Program management is just getting too specific. The problem with certain govt orgs handling this stuff (in contrast to ISRO) has much more to do with the bureaucracy and affiliated problems that reward dwell time over results...for various reasons related to size, scope, transition and inertia (of the cold war psyche as it manifested in India in particular way). Things like not having military people running the military product programs to keep good healthy pressure on it to deliver in suitable timeframe....because certain bureaucratic norms and processes (in rest of Indian govt) were just assumed to be good enough (there was also an institutional suspicion of military at certain key points given the general neighbourhood and developing world proclivity for coups etc in cold war).

The point is we have the stellar example to learn from and emulate...gestated and delivered already (ISRO) across the board of what this all generally involves....be it program management, technology absorption and refinement, administration and more result-oriented iterations. In fact there are several good parts in other organisations like DRDO, they are just not comprehensive yet...point is to keep getting better as what works and what doesnt work accumulates more pressure to effect relevant change everywhere....but not so much one that does something so severe like a purge or complete reset from 0.

 

[Novice09]

Just make the Rafale cheaper man. We are buying so many. Let's make life easier for both of us.

Yes, This is the exact thing GOI is asking...