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[BON PLAN]

Can India afford whopping £8B again for 36 Rafale

In the first batch price there was 2 bases accomodation, india spécific improvements, the support so as to give a 75% disponibility, weapons, training.

If you purchase another batch of 36, no need to adapt new air bases (*). the specific improvements are already paid. You don't need as much training because a pilots core will be existing in india to train rookies. The second batch of weapons may be lighter (and Astra will be adapted).
So for 36 planes it will cost more 5 billions than 8.

(*) : In france, the Saint Dizier air base hosts more than 36 bids....

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I dream? first Meteor was fired by Gripen E just one month ago (*)... That doesn't mean the weapon system is fully operational and mature. So is the radar, because to be leader in GaN technologies doesn't mean the softawares are all written, fine tuned and mature. Ask Eurofighter about that for the Captor E.
The Gripen E will be FOC in several years. Not tomorrow.

(*) we even don't know if the missile was guided or if it was just a separation test....

FMV, the part of the Swedish government claims that Gripen E will reach operative status in 2021.
They have access to the first production aircrafts since last year.
They are used both by them and by SAAB for joint verification.
The Swedish Air Force will get their first Gripen E this year, and it will be operative in the Air Force during 2021.
Final delivery of the last of the 60 on order for the Swedish Air Force will be in 2026.
Due to the Model Based Design, they only find a fraction of the issues they found on the earlier Gripen A/B or Gripen C/D.

Is there anyone more than me that have noticed that the Indian Air Force, which is desperate for more fighters, is waiting to make a decision until the point of time when they can buy Gripen E?

 

[BringHarmony]

Is there anyone more than me that have noticed that the Indian Air Force, which is desperate for more fighters, is waiting to make a decision until the point of time when they can buy Gripen E?

Unlikely, unless they want to dig the hole of the logistic nightmare deeper.

In the first batch price there was 2 bases accomodation, india spécific improvements, the support so as to give a 75% disponibility, weapons, training.

If you purchase another batch of 36, no need to adapt new air bases (*). the specific improvements are already paid. You don't need as much training because a pilots core will be existing in india to train rookies. The second batch of weapons may be lighter (and Astra will be adapted).
So for 36 planes it will cost more 5 billions than 8.

(*) : In france, the Saint Dizier air base hosts more than 36 bids....

How much commonality in terms of infrastructure and support systems do Rafale and Mirage share? India has some Mirages as well.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

F4 includes some new weapons : 1000Kg AASM Hammer, MICA NG (with dual impulse engine)
F4 will receive new radar refinements (ISAR, electronic warfare, ...), hard and soft improvements on SPECTRA, the ability to be a connecting nod like F35 (and probably fully interoperable with F35), a new IRST, new engines calculators....

Older french Rafale will only received some of these improvements.
All new F3R (like the Indian birds) can have the whole package.

India getting F4?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Unlikely, unless they want to dig the hole of the logistic nightmare deeper.


How much commonality in terms of infrastructure and support systems do Rafale and Mirage share? India has some Mirages as well.

Indian Air Force has been told that India cannot afford the roll out the Rafale in the numbers they need. Gripen will have a common engine base with Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA (whenever they will see the light of day).
It can easily be adapted to all weapons, NATO compatible, Russian or indigenous,
since the advanced S/W architecture allows qualifications of new weapons without the involvment of SAAB.
The Gripen E will not be a logistical nightmare, it will certainly allow India to increase the readiness of the Indian Air Force.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Indian Air Force has been told that India cannot afford the roll out the Rafale in the numbers they need. Gripen will have a common engine base with Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA (whenever they will see the light of day).
It can easily be adapted to all weapons, NATO compatible, Russian or indigenous,
since the advanced S/W architecture allows qualifications of new weapons without the involvment of SAAB.
The Gripen E will not be a logistical nightmare, it will certainly allow India to increase the readiness of the Indian Air Force.

1 Gripen E costs around $100 million

 

[BringHarmony]

Indian Air Force has been told that India cannot afford the roll out the Rafale in the numbers they need. Gripen will have a common engine base with Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA (whenever they will see the light of day).

From what I hear, they are already rolling out their own LCA. One squad worth is already in place in IOC and they did FOC recently. They want to upgrade it but given that they were flying Mig-21 and Mig-27 before this, even the incomplete plane will be an upgrade.

So buying another light combat aircraft does not make sense. Heck, with all the customization for tropics and India specific requirements even Grippen cannot come before 3-4 years if they sign the deal today. Rafale took 4-5 years for customization.

1 Gripen E costs around $100 million

Their in-house fighter costs somewhere in the ball park of 50 million or so. So its a no brainer. If they want number, they should ramp up production.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

1 Gripen E costs around $100 million

The contract says 35,5 BSEK, which is about $3,55B for 60 aircrafts.
That is $56M per aircraft.

From what I hear, they are already rolling out their own LCA. One squad worth is already in place in IOC and they did FOC recently. They want to upgrade it but given that they were flying Mig-21 and Mig-27 before this, even the incomplete plane will be an upgrade.

So buying another light combat aircraft does not make sense. Heck, with all the customization for tropics and India specific requirements even Grippen cannot come before 3-4 years if they sign the deal today. Rafale took 4-5 years for customization.


Their in-house fighter costs somewhere in the ball park of 50 million or so. So its a no brainer. If they want number, they should ramp up production.

If the Tejas had been on par with the Gripen E, maybe you would have a point, but everyone, including the Indian Air Force knows that it is not.
Gripen C is already flying in the Tropics, so that is not a big deal.

 

[BringHarmony]

If the Tejas had been on par with the Gripen E, maybe you would have a point, but everyone, including the Indian Air Force knows that it is not.

Its more a question of what capabilities they want and what they are replacing. Their current fighters are pathetic, so replacing it with a cheaper less capable fighter in numbers is not a bad decision. Remember, these will be going against likes of JF-17 block 1 and may be 2.

Gripen C is already flying in the Tropics, so that is not a big deal.

I highly doubt customization for an end customer can be hand waved so easily.

 

[Tumba]

In the first batch price there was 2 bases accomodation, india spécific improvements, the support so as to give a 75% disponibility, weapons, training.

If you purchase another batch of 36, no need to adapt new air bases (*). the specific improvements are already paid. You don't need as much training because a pilots core will be existing in india to train rookies. The second batch of weapons may be lighter (and Astra will be adapted).
So for 36 planes it will cost more 5 billions than 8.

(*) : In france, the Saint Dizier air base hosts more than 36 bids....

36 more are unlikely as MRCA contract is in progress... Also Gripen chances are nill as Tejas will be killed belonging to same category
F-18 has the highest chances which will be complemented by ORCA with many same sub systems

 

[BON PLAN]

FMV, the part of the Swedish government claims that Gripen E will reach operative status in 2021.
They have access to the first production aircrafts since last year.
They are used both by them and by SAAB for joint verification.
The Swedish Air Force will get their first Gripen E this year, and it will be operative in the Air Force during 2021.
Final delivery of the last of the 60 on order for the Swedish Air Force will be in 2026.
Due to the Model Based Design, they only find a fraction of the issues they found on the earlier Gripen A/B or Gripen C/D.

Is there anyone more than me that have noticed that the Indian Air Force, which is desperate for more fighters, is waiting to make a decision until the point of time when they can buy Gripen E?

So Rafale reached operative status in 1999 ! But just in a air to air config with only 2 short range Magic 2 missiles... whaou ! impressive...

NO, it's not serious. Maybe a political IOC will be pronouced in 2021 (in a light air to air only config), but the FOC will need some more years.

How much commonality in terms of infrastructure and support systems do Rafale and Mirage share? India has some Mirages as well.

few. Only the same suppliers, but quite no common components.

India getting F4?

it is now officially offered to India. Probably with a retrofit of the 36 already ordered.

Indian Air Force has been told that India cannot afford the roll out the Rafale in the numbers they need. Gripen will have a common engine base with Tejas Mk 2 and AMCA (whenever they will see the light of day).
It can easily be adapted to all weapons, NATO compatible, Russian or indigenous,
since the advanced S/W architecture allows qualifications of new weapons without the involvment of SAAB.
The Gripen E will not be a logistical nightmare, it will certainly allow India to increase the readiness of the Indian Air Force.

No way for Tejas in India !
don't imagine the indians too idiots to purchase the direct competitor of their own bird !

The contract says 35,5 BSEK, which is about $3,55B for 60 aircrafts.
That is $56M per aircraft.

how many years ago? it is a friend price. Without nothing elses (training, support, weapons, test bench....)

India should not look beyond Rafale's.
mon ami @BON PLAN can you shed some light on F4.

some more news ....
https://www.janes.com/article/87101...d-spectra-fire-control-radar-avoidance-system

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Its more a question of what capabilities they want and what they are replacing. Their current fighters are pathetic, so replacing it with a cheaper less capable fighter in numbers is not a bad decision. Remember, these will be going against likes of JF-17 block 1 and may be 2.


I highly doubt customization for an end customer can be hand waved so easily.

As I said, Gripen E is unique in that a customer can do a lot of customization without SAAB.
It is similar to writing an App for a phone. If India wants to add indigenous missiles, not supported by SAAB, they can do that. Noone else offers this.
Each pilot can have their own customized user interface, and if they switch aircraft, the new aircraft will adopt their customization.

So Rafale reached operative status in 1999 ! But just in a air to air config with only 2 short range Magic 2 missiles... whaou ! impressive...

NO, it's not serious. Maybe a political IOC will be pronouced in 2021 (in a light air to air only config), but the FOC will need some more years.

Things that took several months to test out on Gripen C takes days on Gripen E
due to the Smart Fighter S/W architecture.
You will be surprised.

 

[BringHarmony]

As I said, Gripen E is unique in that a customer can do a lot of customization without SAAB.
It is similar to writing an App for a phone. If India wants to add indigenous missiles, not supported by SAAB, they can do that. Noone else offers this.
Each pilot can have their own customized user interface, and if they switch aircraft, the new aircraft will adopt their customization.

Lets see... In case of Brazil the contract was signed on 24th Oct 2014 for 36 fighters in E and F variant AFAIK. First grippen landed on 10th september 2019. Thats 5 years. This delivery will go on for about 2024. Now with Indians producing their fighters right now at a rate of even 6-8 fighters per year will be able to raise two to three new squadrons in that time period with their own planes. This is actually neglecting any time for negotiation and tender process right now. Admittedly those will not be up to the Grippen standards but then they are not going to face F-18 or F-16 E/F any time soon, do they?

It will fit the mix nicely. Really capable Heavy fighter and really sophisticated mid fighters with cheap but numerous light fighters.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Lets see... In case of Brazil the contract was signed on 24th Oct 2014 for 36 fighters in E and F variant AFAIK. First grippen landed on 10th september 2019. Thats 5 years. This delivery will go on for about 2024. Now with Indians producing their fighters right now at a rate of even 6-8 fighters per year will be able to raise two to three new squadrons in that time period with their own planes. This is actually neglecting any time for negotiation and tender process right now. Admittedly those will not be up to the Grippen standards but then they are not going to face F-18 or F-16 E/F any time soon, do they?

It will fit the mix nicely. Really capable Heavy fighter and really sophisticated mid fighters with cheap but numerous light fighters.

India has already ordered the Tejas, but they also want a more capable fighter,
that can take on J-10/-20/-31 as well as AMRAAM equipped F-16s.
JJFF-1177s are less of a threat, until at least Block III.

 

[Hephaestus]

some more news ....
https://www.janes.com/article/87101...d-spectra-fire-control-radar-avoidance-system

c'est merveilleux