Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[A.P. Richelieu]

You answered to my post asking 'How Saab is different from HAL/ADA?' saying swedish (VOLVO) have more experience with engine than us. Now you are claiming adding FADEC to GE404 is some exceptional achievement.
Hope you know we have developed an engine named Kavari with indigenous FADEC thanks to DARE. We licencee produce hundreds of Adour Mk 871,Mk 811,AL 31FP,RD 33, R29,R25 etc.We make more than 50% inhouse for AL 31/RD33. We may have produced more modern engines in last 10 years than Swedish ever made in last 50 years. And how did without making a modern engine they become more experienced?


You do understand our startagic engines are developed by GTRE not HAL rite ?


How am i Misquoting ? (again, you were answering to 'How Saab is different from HAL?' post) it okey for Saab to use other countries Radars but we cannot!? . This thread is about MII LWF not history of light weight fighters. AESA is must for every future acquisition. As i said earlier DRDO and elta is developing a new AESA radar, just like your future GaN.


Bhayya, This is about future MII LWF. btw LCA mk2A is already ordered, don't matter when the light comes.

It is Ok for you to quote features of a non-operational future fighter but we can't?


So, our DRDO AEW&CS does not count as experience?!


I apologize for using that word. But you still did not prove how Saab/Swedish is more experienced enough for $10+ billion investment for MII.

The Kaveri is so far a failure....
With the help of the French, maybe things could be straightened out.

 

[Allen Iverson]

The Kaveri is so far a failure....
With the help of the French, maybe things could be straightened out.

I won't say Kaveri a failure.. It is just developing 20% lesser thrust required to compare it with GE F 404.. There is redesigning process going on to restructure the Kabini core.. For that the help of consultants such as Safran is sought..
kaveri in its current form is generating the enough thrust required for UAVs and other such applications.. It has opened up a vast options of propulsion systems to Indian defence PSUs..

 

[Taygibay]

@A.P. Richelieu @PARIKRAMA @Taygibay If you guys could add to what I quoted above..??

Well, let's just mention that the main reason for using a modified foreign engine
was not technical. There just wasn't enough money to build fighter jet engines
from scratch. When you decide on strategic avenues, unless cash is infinitely
abundant, you select techs A- that must be national and B- for the rest, those
that are likely to pay back the investment.

Sweden did design jet engines, the Dovern being their Kaveri moment.
But since getting to the level of the majors would cost a fortune the country
did not have without a market for payback, they chose to adapt existing jets.
Nonetheless, the RM series shows an increasing level of adaptation to their
needs which honestly constitute more experience and results in the field than
GTRE / DRDO have logged so far.

Good day AllanI and all, Tay.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Sweden did design jet engines, the Dovern being their Kaveri moment.
But since getting to the level of the majors would cost a fortune the country
did not have without a market for payback, they chose to adapt existing jets.
Nonetheless, the RM series shows an increasing level of adaptation to their
needs which honestly constitute more experience and results in the field than
GTRE / DRDO have logged so far.

Good day AllanI and all, Tay.

Interesting, never heard about the Dovern, but apparently after it was rejected
in favour of a Rolls-Royce jet engine for the A-32 Lansen, it was developed
into a gasturbine, which is still in production.

 

[Hephaestus]

Unmanned F-16s declared IOC

Gen. Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, commander of Air Force Air Combat Command (ACC), late last week declared the QF-16 Full-Scale Aerial Target (FSAT) initially operationally capable. The QF-16 is an unmanned F-16 used, in this program, for providing threat-representative presentation for developmental and operational test and evaluation for weapons systems as mandated by law, Department of Defense documents said of the FSAT program.

According to the main contractor, Boeing: “The QF-16 Full Scale Aerial Target will provide the next generation of combat training and testing for U.S. warfighters. Retired F-16 aircraft are converted into QF-16 aerial targets for the purpose of testing newly developed weapons and tactics. The QF-16 will replace the existing QF-4 fleet, and provide a higher capability, fourth generation aerial target that is more representative of today’s targets and threats.”

The decision by ACC certifies 15 QF-16s ready and available for target operations, according to an ACC release. They are assigned to Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida and flown by the 82nd Aerial Target Squadron under the 53rd Wing.

In this sense, initial operational capability (IOC) means that the squadron now has 15 aircraft “plus trained pilots and maintainers to provide unmanned QF-16 aerial targets in the Gulf Range from Tyndall AFB," Lt. Col. Matthew Garrison, 82nd Aerial Target Squadron commander at Tyndall, told C4ISRNET in an email. “This also required that we have the hardware, software and technicians to maintain and operate the target control system. There were several intermediate steps along the way including unmanned QF-16 target missions supporting JSF [joint strike fighter] testing that supported the recent F-35A IOC declaration.”

The new QF-16 fleet replaces the QF-4 fleet that served the same purpose. ACC assured that QF-16 is the introduction of fourth-generation fighter capabilities in the aerial target mission maintaining all capabilities of the baseline F-16 including supersonic flight and 9 G maneuverability.

Garrison added that “[w]e are already full steam ahead because we are supporting back-to-back QF-16 target missions tomorrow for [ Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile] AMRAAM involving USN F-18s and new software for USAF F-16s.”

“This leap forward in airframe capabilities, combined with advanced electronic pods, will allow us to properly test and evaluate our 5th generation aircraft and weapons,” he said.

The QF-16 has been thought of to contribute to the Air Force’s loyal wingmen program, which seeks to pair unmanned fourth-generation fighters with fifth-generation manned platforms. Within this construct, Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work has described it as a battle node network in line with the third offset strategy “where you take an F-16, make it totally unmanned — F-16 is a fourth-generation fighter – and pair it with an F-35 – a fifth-generation, what I would call battle network node — and those two operating together,” he said at a Washington Post event.

This concept can help navigate around anti-access/area denial environments, which aim to extend the range of adversarial forces and capabilities, by serving as a missile truck for fifth-generation fighters that are limited in their payload capability and accompanying them at high rates of speed currently unique vis-à-vis other unmanned platforms.

“We have not participated in any technology demonstrations with the Loyal Wingman program but have provided them with answers to specific questions when asked,” Garrison said. “Generally these have been centered on our target control system. We also discussed some general lessons learned about maintaining and operating large, unmanned aerial platforms.”

Just found this. Not that it has to do anything with MII Jets. Please let me know your thoughts.

http://www.c4isrnet.com/articles/unmanned-f-16s-declared-ioc

 

[Perpendicular]

https://twitter.com/x/status/783208766414151680

https://twitter.com/x/status/783208766401634304

 

[Taygibay]

Just found this. Not that it has to do anything with MII Jets. Please let me know your thoughts.

QF targets have been around for a long while.
The first drone aerial target came in 1935 in the UK.
America with its superior cash began the QFs in the 60s
with two dozen Starfighters designated QF-104.
They were followed by QF-102, QF-100, QF-106 then
QF-4 made with Phantoms and now Falcons as QF-16.

Not related to MII as they're highly proprietary nor to
UCAVs by the way because QF ACs are often guided by
a WSO in a master aircraft following the drone.

Great day to you, Tay.

P.S. Isn't that Air Chief threading on his DM's prerogatives
when he says things like :

Whoever gives the best deal, the capability and transfer of
technology will determine which fighter will figure for Make in India​

In the end his job is merely to use these jets.

 

[Hephaestus]

QF targets have been around for long while.
The first drone aerial target came in 1935 in the UK.
America with its superior cash began the QFs in the 60s
with two dozen Starfighters designated QF-104.
They were followed by QF-102, QF-100, QF-106 then
QF-4 made with Phantoms and now Falcons as QF-16.

Not related to MII as they're highly proprietary nor to
UCAVs by the way because QF ACs are often guided by
an WSO in a master aircraft following the drone.

Great day to you, Tay.

P.S. Isn't that Air Chief threading on his DM prerogatives
when he says things like :

Whoever gives the best deal, the capability and transfer of
technology will determine which fighter will figure for Make in India​

In the end his job is merely to use these jets.

Thank you Tay. Yes I do understand this has got nothing to do with MII.

These are more like target practice for future gen of fighters. Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Taygibay]

No, that's it exactly. It comes closer to a dogfight simulation
than most target drones which simulate fighters w/electronics
but don't have the necessary agility for 1-on-1 maneuvers.

800000612001_3742836852001_QF16-EXT-08212014.mp4

Good day, Tay.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

https://twitter.com/x/status/783208766414151680

https://twitter.com/x/status/783208766401634304

Where did IAF chief actually said this ?

The companies and Media here is trying to turn one thing into another for their gain at IAFs risk.

The requirement is for Mig21 replacements before 2022, not for a MII Next Generation Fighter Jet after 2025. We are already getting that in Rafale deal.

 

[[Bregs]]

Swedish major Saab bets big on India with Gripen fighter jets

NEW DELHI, OCTOBER 3:

Swedish aerospace and defence giant Saab Group is betting big on the Indian market for its fighter jet Gripen.

The $800-million Saab aeronautics, which has already bagged $5 billion worth of global orders for Gripen, is planning to set up an entire production and assembly line in India to co-produce the jets under the Make in India programme.

“Saab is here to team up with India and be there for the next 100 years. This is not just about setting up an aircraft industry but also about true transfer of technology and sharing of trade secrets,” said Mats Palmberg, Vice President, Industrial Partnerships, Saab Aeronautics.

Gripen had lost out to Rafale in 2011 during a bidding process for medium multi-role combat aircraft. However, the company has upgraded the Gripensince then. Gripen is now being used by the air forces of Hungary, Thailand, South Africa, Brazil and Czech Republic. Talks were revived when Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven met Prime Minister Narendra Modi in February this year. The company is hopeful that India will be placing orders to procure Gripen warplanes soon.

The company is planning to sell the Gripen NG model to India, which is their most advanced multi-role fighter.

“Gripen order backlog is at an all time high. We are in one of the best positions now with Gripen, although we have tough competition,” added Richard Smith, Head (Marketing & Sales), Gripen.

According to Smith, financing the procurement of these jets can also be customised as per the clients’ needs.

Under the Make in India programme, Saab has plans to build an aeronautical industry eco-system, including transfer of technology with an aim to maximise India content, extending industrial network and creating a suppliers system.

As part of its long-term plans for Gripen, it has plans for design, production and in-service support. There are also plans to set up a training academy to train pilots in operating the Gripen.

“The work that will be done in India will support our programmes for Gripen globally,” said Palmberg.

He said there will be dedicated Indian Gripen line at Saab’s facility here that will be supported by the Indian industry. Additionally, the company is planning to establish a sub-assembly unit.

The company is also keen to train Indian pilots and engineers in Sweden.

“We can give the Indian Air Force the capabilities they need that will meet the changing requirements,” said Lars Sjoberg, Director, Head of Development, Saab Aeronautics.

(The writer was in Sweden at the invitation of Saab Group)


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...a-with-gripen-fighter-jets/article9180925.ece

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Agent_47
I am taking it here

IAF chief blames UPA for procurement delays, spells out schedule for boosting fighter squadrons

Addressing his first press conference since India contracted for 36 Rafale fighters from France, Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, outlined on Tuesday his vision for how crippling deficiencies in fighter aircraft would be tackled.

Raha blamed the United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government’s preoccupation with procedure for the IAF’s current aircraft shortfalls — it has just 34 fighter squadrons instead of the sanctioned 45. He said: “I think all our procurements have been more or less process driven and not outcome driven. [Now] there is a change of perception and now most of the procurement processes and policies are being amended so that it is (sic) outcome driven.”

“We have planned up to 2027 and if the inductions had been timely, the IAF’s capabilities, certainly in terms of combat aircraft — as of now it is good, but it would have been better.”

The IAF has not yet closed the Rafale chapter. With Dassault, the Rafale’s French vendor, believed to be readying a proposal for building 80 more Rafales in India, Raha stated: “We would like to have more, but the decision will be taken in the near future based on capabilities and the desirability of having [more] fighter aircraft of this class.”

Second fighter line

The air chief indicated that a new Make in India fighter production line could come up soon, based on “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India --- respectively the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E. These offers are conditional on the IAF buying and operating the fighter in question.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha said: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology. Also, India will become a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.

Jaguar

The IAF chief also flashed a green light on modifying and upgrading the Jaguar fleet, the IAF’s key fighter for deep penetration strikes. As Business Standard has reported (March 27, 2015 “Facing dwindling numbers, Jaguar upgrade crucial for Indian Air Force”) at least four of the six Jaguar squadrons (120 aircraft) will be rejuvenated with new Honeywell F-125N engines for $3 billion, a modern Airborne Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, indigenous DARIN-3 avionics and will carry the smart CBU-105 “sensor fuzed weapons” that India bought from Textron, USA.

Raha said: “To exploit the Jaguar for the next 15-20 years, we are upgrading the aircraft with better weapons. I think there has been slow progress in the past but I’m sure this is going to pick up steam, and very soon we’ll see progress.”

Raha also said upgrade programmes were progressing well in the three Mirage 2000 squadrons (cost: Rs 12,100 crore); and three MiG-29 squadrons (cost Rs 6,400 crore).

Indo-Russian FGFA

The tortuous negotiations holding up the Indo-Russian Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) are resolved, Raha confirmed. The two sides are believed to have agreed on a $4 billion “R&D Contract” that could see HAL and Sukhoi co-develop and build up to 250 FGFAs for the IAF.

Raha said: “[Earlier, the IAF] found gaps in information on transfer of technology; how they (Sukhoi) have achieved these 5th generation technologies, and in visibility of the total cost. So these issues were flagged… and now a lot of clarity has come on these issues. Hopefully things will be decided sooner rather than later on the FGFA.”

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and roadmap for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version”, he said.

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalized in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years.

“We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters”, said Raha.


http://www.business-standard.com/ar...oosting-fighter-squadrons-116100400819_1.html

it will take atleast 2026 to induct all 120 LCAs. Mk2 will remain a fantasy for us.
@PARIKRAMA

F16/Gripen E Second Line thoughts

https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...8-gripen-any-other.448850/page-3#post-8697315


F16 Block 70

https://defence.pk/threads/indian-airforce-mmrca-lwf-alternate-discussion.448646/#post-8671944

Gripen E

https://defence.pk/threads/indian-airforce-mmrca-lwf-alternate-discussion.448646/#post-8671944


About LCA 2021-28 timeline, i have said it here Bro

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.230070/page-384#post-8731038

Look i said about estimated peak in 2021-25 timeline... I have clearly spelt about the turf war and possible consequences.

@MilSpec @Abingdonboy @hellfire @Ankit Kumar 002 @anant_s @SpArK
Pls go through the interview by Air Chief Raha.. Thanks to @MilSpec for the LWF thread, we now have much better data to at least comprehend..

You see @Agent_47 , HAL is digging its grave.. clearly IAF chief said what i have always suggested that HAL itself will create a situation where a second LWF becomes inevitable. I am again saying they will create a situation where a pvt sector like L&T will finally come up and take a 160 jet order as well and HAL will be left with just 100+ order.

If LWF is a reality then my choices are

1. LSA Ghost with kaveri and heavy borrowing from Rafale (something vstol said already)
2. Gripen E/F with possibly using again kaveri engine
3. F16 Blk 70 (Pls avoid unless we buy directly from USA and get entire 100 jets in 5 years only and no MII)

I said that here just few days back this as below

https://defence.pk/threads/make-in-...8-gripen-any-other.448850/page-5#post-8753670

 

[Agent_47]

You see @Agent_47 , HAL is digging its grave.. clearly IAF chief said what i have always suggested that HAL itself will create a situation where a second LWF becomes inevitable. I am again saying they will create a situation where a pvt sector like L&T will finally come up and take a 160 jet order as well and HAL will be left with just 100+ order.

If LWF is a reality then my choices are

1. LSA Ghost with kaveri and heavy borrowing from Rafale (something vstol said already)
2. Gripen E/F with possibly using again kaveri engine
3. F16 Blk 70 (Pls avoid unless we buy directly from USA and get entire 100 jets in 5 years only and no MII)

There is a clear void of 180-200 jets. F16 and gripen are terrible choices. I would say add second private production line and double the rate (32/yr) by 2021. Ask serious help from Dassault for Mk2 with MII second batch contract. If we could make mk2 production ready by 2024-25, we can complete the requirement within 6-7 years.

 

[Hellfire]

There is a clear void of 180-200 jets. F16 and gripen are terrible choices. I would say add second private production line and double the rate (32/yr) by 2021. Ask serious help from Dassault for Mk2 with MII second batch contract. If we could make mk2 production ready by 2024-25, we can complete the requirement within 6-7 years.

The thick heads at HAL are too stupidto realise that .... they are just not willing to consider partnering with firms like L&T to get LCA in to production in a big way

 

[Water Car Engineer]

I hope this new bird doesnt go in the hands of HAL, but rope in a willing private firm(s).