Make In India - Fighter Jet musings - News, Developments, Updates - F16,F18, Gripen, Any other

[A.P. Richelieu]

AESA is simply a small part of the equation. If you recall, even the SH and F-16 failed, and this is even before ToT came into the picture.

You will be surprised how much of a difference it will make for the Rafale considering Dassault will already have an assembly line in India even before MMRCA 2.0 starts. They plan to set it up with the second order of 36 jets, and they are expected to win the navy's MRCBF also. And Dassault will already have a spares industry set up. So most of the industrial costs will have already been amortised and can be removed from Dassault's bid. The customisation contract has also covered up any gaps the Rafale had versus the new competition.

My bet is the Gripen won't even be shortlisted. Because of the single engine. Lot of points lost there.

The French can make it available for tests in 2021. A lot of stuff for F4 is already being tested today through older programs. Plus, since Rafale was already shortlisted once before, they don't have to prove much except new systems.

That's where the 200+ LCA Mk2 will come in.

Lack of AESA was certainly the main reason why Gripen C was not shortlisted.
The US aircrafts were out primarily because they would not release source code allowing India to customize.
There will not be a second order of Rafale outside this project. Dream on.

I think the SH will win the IN procurement. At least they fit the elevator, even if they need a shoehorn. Detachable wingtips requiring 15-20 minutes extra handling once the aircraft is on deck sucks.

The LCA Mk 2 may or may not arrive.

 

[polanski]

Gripen E is the sole real new competitor.
But : in a frontal concurrence versus Tejas, and is made of a lot of US technolgy. Not so good for it.
F16 is definitively out. IAF made a lot of criticism about it earlyer.

It would be a huge disappointment not to see rafale as the winner, for a lot of reasons. the RFI was tailored made for it.

The Gripen's engine is licensed produced by Volvo. This is a commonality between Tejaz and Gripen, India is also licensed to produce same type of engine for Tejaz.
Rest of Gripen's technologies are sourced from European. There are armament commonalities between Rafale and Gripen.
But gripen can be customized to suit Indian needs.

 

[randomradio]

Lack of AESA was certainly the main reason why Gripen C was not shortlisted.

Nope.

Gripen Demo was brought in with an AESA for tests. The IAF did not shortlist the Gripen just because it lacked an AESA. You forget that the Typhoon was also shortlisted and it didn't bring an AESA at all. The Typhoon's AESA was tested by the IAF on a helicopter in the UK.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/iaf-...-in-sweden-with-operational-aesa-radar.55185/

The US aircrafts were out primarily because they would not release source code allowing India to customize.

ToT comes into the picture during contract negotiations. The IAF's round is purely technical and the shortlist has nothing to do with ToT.

There will not be a second order of Rafale outside this project. Dream on.

The IAF cleverly bought infrastructure for up to 80 jets. So when the time comes, they can easily ask for more Rafales.

It's already in the works.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...india-silent-on-deal/articleshow/63250850.cms
Indian sources said a decision on more Rafale fighters will be taken once delivery of the initial lot of 36 jets begins...

We are expecting a new contract to be signed in 2020 so that delivery can happen in 2023 and complete by 2026-27, in time for MMRCA jets to start arriving.

I think the SH will win the IN procurement. At least they fit the elevator, even if they need a shoehorn. Detachable wingtips requiring 15-20 minutes extra handling once the aircraft is on deck sucks.

SH has a lot of hurdles to cross.

Also, Dassault will manufacture the MRCBF in India itself, while SH will have to be imported. And even Dassault can provide folding wings if necessary, which will allow the aircraft to be operated from both our carriers. SH can only be operated from the new carrier based on its current wing design.

There are also other options which include modifying the elevators themselves.

The LCA Mk 2 may or may not arrive.

I wouldn't worry about that, but MoD will support the indigenous program over a foreign program. HAL also needs the orders anyway. If LCA Mk2 is late, the IAF plans on buying a few more Mk1A until then.

 

[polanski]

Gripen scored another victory at Philipines fighter jet MRF competition report IHS Janes.
Also Bulgaria bought 8 used Gripen C/D this month.

 

[BON PLAN]

The IAF has been told that India cannot afford it.
If India was putting the Rafale in the lead position, there would be no need to restart the MMRCA.
India could just restart negotiation with Dassault/France.
The only chance for Rafale to win is by cutting cost to what India can afford = 30-40%.

The Big Question is why India, with desperate need for fighters, has plans for delivery which 100% matches the time when they can expect deliveries of the Gripen E.

No way cutting the Rafale price by 30 or 40%. With MII in private sector, a cut is possible, but never at such an extent.
Gripen E is not specially affordable.
If the price is the N°1 factor, take F16 (or Mig35 if india is OK to rely so much on russia)

Rafale F4 will not be available for the tests by IAF.

But all the F3R, including those of the first 36, can be upgraded to F4.
India is probably in touch with Dassault and french DGA so as to adapt the content of the futur F4...

 

[Hassan Guy]

Taiwan plans on retiring their Mirage 2000 fleet and intends to sell them off.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/taiwan-gives-f-35-turns-f-16v-option-37332

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Gripen scored another victory at Philipines fighter jet MRF competition report IHS Janes.
Also Bulgaria bought 8 used Gripen C/D this month.

Don’t sell the skin before You shoot the bear...
The Phillippine government has commented and said that Gripen is in a good position, but that is all.
Bulgaria was offered used F-16s from Portugal, Tranche 1 Eurofighters from Italy and Gripen C/D
from Sweden. Initially Bulgaria announced Gripen, but backtracked.
Now they are asking for new aircrafts from all three.
Portugal certainly cannot sell new F-16s so it will be new Tranche 3 Eurofighters vs new Gripen C/Ds.

No way cutting the Rafale price by 30 or 40%. With MII in private sector, a cut is possible, but never at such an extent.
Gripen E is not specially affordable.
If the price is the N°1 factor, take F16 (or Mig35 if india is OK to rely so much on russia)


But all the F3R, including those of the first 36, can be upgraded to F4.
India is probably in touch with Dassault and french DGA so as to adapt the content of the futur F4...

F-16 Block 70 and SH are a little more expensive than the Gripen E.
All three are 30-40% cheaper than Rafale.
Eurofighter beeing the most expensive.

 

[randomradio]

F-16 Block 70 and SH are a little more expensive than the Gripen E.
All three are 30-40% cheaper than Rafale.
Eurofighter beeing the most expensive.

What's interesting is during MMRCA, Saab's bid was $82.2M and Dassault's bid was $85.5M.

 

[halupridol]

AESA is simply a small part of the equation. If you recall, even the SH and F-16 failed, and this is even before ToT came into the picture.



You will be surprised how much of a difference it will make for the Rafale considering Dassault will already have an assembly line in India even before MMRCA 2.0 starts. They plan to set it up with the second order of 36 jets, and they are expected to win the navy's MRCBF also. And Dassault will already have a spares industry set up. So most of the industrial costs will have already been amortised and can be removed from Dassault's bid. The customisation contract has also covered up any gaps the Rafale had versus the new competition.

My bet is the Gripen won't even be shortlisted. Because of the single engine. Lot of points lost there.



The French can make it available for tests in 2021. A lot of stuff for F4 is already being tested today through older programs. Plus, since Rafale was already shortlisted once before, they don't have to prove much except new systems.



That's where the 200+ LCA Mk2 will come in.

I think its time someone shud tell u that u sound like a teenager adamantly peddling his wishes as truth.
What happened to LSA,2018 is ending,still no news of it,,,,,,or foc of lca about which u were apparently well informed about.mk1 shudve already got foc,,,n nxt year mk1a shud be test flying right?
Hawai firing bohot karte ho.

 

[randomradio]

I think its time someone shud tell u that u sound like a teenager adamantly peddling his wishes as truth.
What happened to LSA,2018 is ending,still no news of it,,,,,,or foc of lca about which u were apparently well informed about.mk1 shudve already got foc,,,n nxt year mk1a shud be test flying right?
Hawai firing bohot karte ho.

Why should there be news of LSA here? It's MSA now. You really can't expect news for this jet on this forum, do you? If you look for it in the right places, you will even see the paper design available, which is not available here. Apart from MSA, the company will also be developing a utility and an attack helicopter, an infantry jet pack and many more.

Why are you so worried about LCA's FOC, it's a bureaucratic process now since all the necessary tests are complete. Regardless of whether it happens in December or Jan or Feb, it is coming. Or should I now explain how bureaucracy in India works? Regardless it has not hampered HAL's plans, design details were already handed over 5 months ago. At worst, the IAF may delay FOC by asking for integration of the ASRAAM.

Long ago, when MMRCA was still going on, I pointed out that there will be 3 MMRCA programs. What happened after? We got 36 Rafales, which is set to climb to 72 jets, we got a new tender that we call MMRCA 2.0 and an expected order of 201 LCA Mk2, which is now MCA (or MWF) since it now weighs 17.5T at MTOW, and replaces the request for 200 single engine fighters. There, three separate programs.

And why should Mk1A have test flight next year? Where did you hear that from? Even the most optimistic estimates put it at 2020, with delivery in 2023.

 

[punit]

I think its time someone shud tell u that u sound like a teenager adamantly peddling his wishes as truth.
What happened to LSA,2018 is ending,still no news of it,,,,,,or foc of lca about which u were apparently well informed about.mk1 shudve already got foc,,,n nxt year mk1a shud be test flying right?
Hawai firing bohot karte ho.

HAL is a pile of stinking crap.
LCA program should be taken as " how not to make a fighter plane" its a disasters of double D size.
Rest with Manohar Parikar out of picture babudom is having field day screwing indian.defenCe..

 

[halupridol]

Why should there be news of LSA here? It's MSA now. You really can't expect news for this jet on this forum, do you? If you look for it in the right places, you will even see the paper design available, which is not available here. Apart from MSA, the company will also be developing a utility and an attack helicopter, an infantry jet pack and many more.

Why are you so worried about LCA's FOC, it's a bureaucratic process now since all the necessary tests are complete. Regardless of whether it happens in December or Jan or Feb, it is coming. Or should I now explain how bureaucracy in India works? Regardless it has not hampered HAL's plans, design details were already handed over 5 months ago. At worst, the IAF may delay FOC by asking for integration of the ASRAAM.

Long ago, when MMRCA was still going on, I pointed out that there will be 3 MMRCA programs. What happened after? We got 36 Rafales, which is set to climb to 72 jets, we got a new tender that we call MMRCA 2.0 and an expected order of 201 LCA Mk2, which is now MCA (or MWF) since it now weighs 17.5T at MTOW, and replaces the request for 200 single engine fighters. There, three separate programs.

And why should Mk1A have test flight next year? Where did you hear that from? Even the most optimistic estimates put it at 2020, with delivery in 2023.

Yes yes ofcourse,,,u said,so must be true,,as usual

HAL is a pile of stinking crap.
LCA program should be taken as " how not to make a fighter plane" its a disasters of double D size.
Rest with Manohar Parikar out of picture babudom is having field day screwing indian.defenCe..

they r basically a jawahar rozgaar yojna just like most dpsu's
Tell u what after 5yrs they will still be claiming world class,best in class,gamechanger n what not. Heck why not,,its a source of unlimited overtime n chai biskoot

 

[punit]

Yes yes ofcourse,,,u said,so must be true,,as usual

they r basically a jawahar rozgaar yojna just like most dpsu's
Tell u what after 5yrs they will still be claiming world class,best in class,gamechanger n what not. Heck why not,,its a source of unlimited overtime n chai biskoot

All they need is few swift hard kicks on their royal as.s. my goodness..The plane project is a disaster.

 

[randomradio]

Yes yes ofcourse,,,u said,so must be true,,as usual

I have always said believe me if you want to. There is no reason to believe me of course, let time prove it all.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

What's interesting is during MMRCA, Saab's bid was $82.2M and Dassault's bid was $85.5M.

What is even more interesting is that when real negotiation ensued, the price for the Rafale deal went up from $10B to $26B.

The price of Rafale is more like $130M per aircraft.
With a price of $85,5 the 36 aircrafts purchased by India would cost ~3B.
Not three times as much.

The Rafale is simply 50% more expensive to buy and quite a lot more expensive to run.
Someone has to prove that one Rafale, which almost always requires french weapons,
is better than two or more Gripen E.