Majority of Finns Support Swedish Military Alliance

[USAHawk785]

It is a map of the peak extension of Sweden, not neccessarily all at the same time.

Gustavus Adolphus and Charles X create the "Greater Power of Sweden" (Stormakten), but Charles XII lost it.
Charles XI is much less known, but he created the formidable army, used by Charles XII.
Swedish Army manual only contained chapters on attack, so when phased with 3-4 x size Russian Army,
and wet gunpowder at Poltava (according to some memoirs, they tried to ambush some Russians
the day before, but the lead balls dropped to the ground after about 20 meters, when they fired their muskets).
they went for the attack.

First they split up the army into two wings, and tried to sneak past some Russian redoubts early in the morning.
Didnt bring any artillery to be more quiet.
Unfortunatly, the commander of the left wing, misunderstood the order, and
tried to take the first redoubt. Due to surprise, this was not a big issue.
He then tried to take the second redoubt, and this caused significant losses,
but eventually, this also succeeded, so he went for the third (there were five).
Everything would have been OK, except for a minor problem, he ran out of soldiers.

The right wing, with the King managed to slip past the redoubts and formed on the west end of
a field, while waiting for the right wing of the Army. This of course never appeared,
so it was decided the infantry would do a bayonet charge vs the Russian lines bristling with artillery.

Even though the Russians was outnumbering them greatly, and the field was ~1km wide,
the charge went home, and the Russians were reeling back,
but then the right wind also ran out of soldiers, and the rest of the day
is not counted as a fairy tale in Sweden.

See:
* "Pickets Charge at Gettysburg"
* "The Charge of the Light Brigade"
* "The Advance of the Imperial Guard at Waterloo"

A truly glorious military history. Personally, I have a lot of respect and interest in Swedish military history. Sometimes I wonder how history would have faired had the Kalmar Union remained united. A unified northern power in the Baltic could have influenced the Holy Roman Empire to the south, perhaps even consolidated some northern German States and even territories beyond Riga.

Who knows, perhaps Poland would have been consolidated.

Addendum: Had King Gustav Adolphus lived, the history of Sweden would have been different. IMHO, he was taken too young...

One of the interesting novelties introduced was the cavalry charge.
some people claim that the Kiev kingdom of Rus was created by Swedish Vikings.

Indeed they were.

The First King of Kievan Rus was , indeed, a Viking. His name was Yaroslav the Wise (Norse name was: Jarizleifr).

His baptism marked the conversion of the entire Kievan Rus into Orthodox Christianity.

The first King of the proto-Russian Kingdom was not a slav, but a Norseman, a son of a Varangian Lord.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

What? Sweden were allies with Russia. It was the Poles who captured Moscow in 1610. Even the English Wikipedia link confirms this.

De la Gardie Campaign - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sigismund II Vasa was King of Poland before he became king of Sweden and he was also half Polish.

It were Poles who did that.

Sigismund III Vasa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

His son Wladyslaw IV Vasa even became Tsar for a short period (1610-1613) all while he was King of Poland at the same time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_IV_Vasa

In Sweden, this period of Russia is called "The Big Mess".
Russians were fighting each other for the throne Tsar, so Swedes
were allied with some Russians,and not with others, and alliances
were changed over time. Situation stabilized a few years later, when
Sweden recognized the first Romanov Tsar, in exchange for money and territory.

Your link says:
"When arrived to Moscow in early 1610 this Swedish army unit suppressed the rebellion in Moscow
organised against Tsar and took control over Moscow."
Sweden did not invade Moscow, for the purpose of conquest.
It was to support a faction in the civil war.

So if you believe your links, we are in agreement.

 

[vostok]

Sweden has invaded Russia and captured Moscow once (1610),

It never happened. The Swedes were the allies of Russian troops and acted as allied forces against Poland.

 

[Tshering22]

This was coming. Finland has always been strongly influenced by Sweden and for quite long has remained a Swedish dominated country.

I used to wonder earlier as to why all the Nordic nations don't get together to form a military alliance of their own with common Swedish made military equipment across the three services of the four armed Nordic countries (Iceland has no military). However, this alliance seems more like a warning than a concern to any invader and not just Russia.

Scandinavians may be peaceful and neutral but they are not weak; at least not tactically weak.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

It never happened. The Swedes were the allies of Russian troops and acted as allied forces against Poland.

It was a civil war, with Poland involved as well.
Sweden was allied with one of the Russian sides against Poland.
The Swedish Army took control over Moscow, but never with the intention
to permanently occupy it, more to help "their" side gain the Tsar throne.

 

[vostok]

It was a civil war, with Poland involved as well.
Sweden was allied with one of the Russian sides against Poland.
The Swedish Army took control over Moscow, but never with the intention
to permanently occupy it, more to help "their" side gain the Tsar throne.

This is true. But from your upper post it could be concluded that the Swedes captured Moscow during the war against Russia. And there was dealt with hired allies detachment, which were promised several border towns and castles for participation in the Civil War.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

A truly glorious military history. Personally, I have a lot of respect and interest in Swedish military history. Sometimes I wonder how history would have faired had the Kalmar Union remained united. A unified northern power in the Baltic could have influenced the Holy Roman Empire to the south, perhaps even consolidated some northern German States and even territories beyond Riga.

Who knows, perhaps Poland would have been consolidated.

Addendum: Had King Gustav Adolphus lived, the history of Sweden would have been different. IMHO, he was taken too young...


Indeed they were.

The First King of Kievan Rus was , indeed, a Viking. His name was Yaroslav the Wise (Norse name was: Jarizleifr).

His baptism marked the conversion of the entire Kievan Rus into Orthodox Christianity.

The first King of the proto-Russian Kingdom was not a slav, but a Norseman, a son of a Varangian Lord.

Yes gustavas adolphus death was a lethal blow,had he lived the holy roman empire itself could have collapsed and austrian empire fallen.
Wasn't the first viking king rurik of novgorod?

he he, if I'm not mistaken, this map reflects the domains of the Swedish Empire prior to the Great Northern War.

ps. i do admire the tenacity of Sweden's Charles XII.

@A.P. Richelieu ,

Im sure you, as a Swede, known of the Battle of Narva. A perfect example of how a smaller force being victorious over a larger enemy force through sound tactics. Strategists would say that had Sweden maintained a defensive / short range offensive campaign, the Great Northern War would have been favorable to Sweden's favor.

Super props to the Swedish Empire for successfully defeating the Danes, and the Poles while at the same time fighting the Russian Army. Tactical masters, if i say so myself.

A fan of swedish ga-pa tactics myself.Doing a thread on poltava in the history section,did the research and was very impressed by the swedish allotment system too.

 

[vostok]

Yes gustavas adolphus death was a lethal blow,had he lived the holy roman empire itself could have collapsed and austrian empire fallen.
Wasn't the first viking king rurik of novgorod?

This is just one of the versions. Russian historians now more inclined to think that Rurik was a native of the Western Slavs - while almost all the southern coast of the Baltic Sea, and many of the islands was under the control of the Slavs, not Germans.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

This is just one of the versions. Russian historians now more inclined to think that Rurik was a native of the Western Slavs - while almost all the southern coast of the Baltic Sea, and many of the islands was under the control of the Slavs, not Germans.

Man,cool.Viking doesn't exactly mean german.It means norsemen.Russian are finnish-slavic-norse admixture with slavic predominant.Vikings were raiders and settled in many places including normandie in france.So even french and british have viking admixture,its no big deal.

 

[vostok]

Man,cool.Viking doesn't exactly mean german.It means norsemen.Russian are finnish-slavic-norse admixture with slavic predominant.Vikings were raiders and settled in many places including normandie in france.So even french and british have viking admixture,its no big deal.

It's true. However, some unscrupulous historians - in particular representatives of the so-called "German School" (the Nazis used their ideas) claimed that Rurik was German and conclude from this that the Russian (Slavic) state was created only with the arrival of Vikings . That's why I immediately arises rejection when people give one of the versions as the absolute truth.

 

[Kambojaric]

Swedish, Danish and Norwegian (Bokmål) is very similar.
We usually say that Danish, can be spoken by any Swede, as long as he has hot porridge in the mouth.

The southern Swedish dialect (Skånska) is not understood at all by the Danes.
Even though my family is from northern Sweden, I was born in southern Sweden,
and Skånska was my native tounge. Not any longer.

I normally have little problem with understanding Danish, but in northern/southern Jutland (the large peninsula)
they can be hard to understand, especially if they speak fast. If I have problems understanding,
I revert to Skånska.

It is a discreet way of telling the Danes to slow down.
Their thinking:
Hey, I understood this guy a moment ago. Now I understand NOTHING...
Why is this?
Maybe *I* am not understandable?
Yes, that must be it!

Dane suggest change of language to English!
- Problem solved.

Haha skanska has always been a big problem for me to understand. Ive lived in Goteborg about half of my life, and always just assumed it was comprehensible to Danes since they sound similar. I can understand Norwegian quite well but Danish not so much. Anyways nice to see a Swede on this forum. Valkommen

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Man,cool.Viking doesn't exactly mean german.It means norsemen.Russian are finnish-slavic-norse admixture with slavic predominant.Vikings were raiders and settled in many places including normandie in france.So even french and british have viking admixture,its no big deal.

Yes, the Viking era was a good example of early international trade.
Vikings got gold, and foreigners got children .

William the Conqueror had Viking ancestry (Normand = Nordman = Norsemen).

Many Vikings served in Constantinopel (Väringagardet).

 

[USAHawk785]

Yes, the Viking era was a good example of early international trade.
Vikings got gold, and foreigners got children .

William the Conqueror had Viking ancestry (Normand = Nordman = Norsemen).

Many Vikings served in Constantinopel (Väringagardet).

True. In fact, during the Great Northern War, Sweden's staunchest ally was the Ottoman Empire; after Charles XII was released from Russian ransom, he made his way to Istanbul, and from there, back to Sweden.

Yes gustavas adolphus death was a lethal blow,had he lived the holy roman empire itself could have collapsed and austrian empire fallen.
Wasn't the first viking king rurik of novgorod?



A fan of swedish ga-pa tactics myself.Doing a thread on poltava in the history section,did the research and was very impressed by the swedish allotment system too.

Hahaha. There's a place in the northside of Chicago that I like to frequent -- the area is called Andersonville. Its historically a Swedish community and boy o boy do they make the best pancakes and ethnic swedish home goods. I love the community ! Couple of miles to the west, is the old Ukrainian / Russian community, too.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yes, the Viking era was a good example of early international trade.
Vikings got gold, and foreigners got children .

William the Conqueror had Viking ancestry (Normand = Nordman = Norsemen).

Many Vikings served in Constantinopel (Väringagardet).

Yes harald hardrada was a varangian guard early in his life if i remember.Ironic that in the contest for the throne of england hardrada died at stamford bridge against the saxons,only for another man of norman descent william to win the throne a few weeks later at hastings.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Man,cool.Viking doesn't exactly mean german.It means norsemen.Russian are finnish-slavic-norse admixture with slavic predominant.Vikings were raiders and settled in many places including normandie in france.So even french and british have viking admixture,its no big deal.

Vik = Bay, so the word Viking could be translated to "Man of Bay", which relates to
pirates hiding in bays waiting for suitable ships to plunder.

"Gå i Viking" = "Take a Viking trip" means going (by ship) on a raid.

Not every Norsemen were Vikings, only the "raiders" should be considered Vikings.

Ths is the classical explanation, but there are other theories.

An interesting word which is associated with Vikings is "berserk".
Everyone probably knows what it means to "go berserk".

Some Vikings were berserkers, and they would enter battle with such fury
that any opponent could only defend, but not counterattack.

The word means "wears plain clothes", and translates to a man so mad with
rage that he would enter battle WITHOUT any armour.

Another word of Viking ancestry is "husband".
Hus = House ; Band is actually "Bonde" = "farmer"
so "The Husband" means "The Farmer of the House".

True. In fact, during the Great Northern War, Sweden's staunchest ally was the Ottoman Empire; after Charles XII was released from Russian ransom, he made his way to Istanbul, and from there, back to Sweden.

I don't think that he was captured (most of the survivors was), and he made his way to a place called Bender in Turkey. This ended in the "Bender Calamity" = "Kalabaliken i Bender" 1713. The Turkish Sultan got fed up with inaction and costly maintenance and wanted the king to leave, so the Swedish Camp was overun.