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Maj-General Akhtar Malik and the 1965 Debacle

Another reality you forgot to mention is that we hold a big chunk of your state Kashmir, the difference between kashmir and bangladesh is that bangladesh is not attached to us physically, however Kashmir is attached to you but we hold a part of it and we even gifted some of it to our friend China.

I also like your plan of a United Asia, if europe can do it after fighting for centuries, we can also get along.

:cheers:

Alas we have the Kashmir card again. Given that the battle happened in Kashmir in 1965, I hope it is current to the thread.

If you ask me about Kashmir, I have a non conventional opinion about it. I don't think the wounds of Kashmir can be healed even if India and Pakistan start a constructive dialogue from now on. Provide independence, merge it with India or Pakistan. The current status is meaning less but is the meta stable state where peace can still thrive.

Both India and Pakistan have lost precious time in progressing on areas more important than military. I will accept that India lost half a dozen opportunities to win back Kashmir and the hearts of Kashmiris and Pakistan is not any different. Pakistan has 1/3 of Kashmir and it is not a fraction you can be proud of.

If India is not poked time and again about the Kashmir issue, it will merrily continue working on making Indian side of Kashmir peaceful.

Pakistan can take full credit for having 1/3rd of it but does that make the East Pakistan defeat even? May be not. But if you think so ...
:cheers:
 
Well regardless of how much strong India is now.It cannot attack Pakistan again.2001 you Army went on hiking and your soldiers pissed on borders for 1 year and could not wage war.Hell you loost 500~600 soldiers just there without any war then mumbai attack what could you do..zilch nada nothing.I'll believe it when i see it.So as far as i think you are nothing more then cry babies going to USA and crying about 14 f-16.s

Everything has a time and that time will also come.

:rofl: :rofl: Time will tell what India can and can't do if the provocation continues.

Tell me something : US is attacking a sovereign country's territory in the name of war on terror and you have 100 times civilian casualty than terrorists and you are unable to do anything.

We have to show pity on the state of affairs and not make it worst. Don't worry about Indian response. It will come when we know we will win.
:cheers:
 
Alas we have the Kashmir card again. Given that the battle happened in Kashmir in 1965, I hope it is current to the thread.

If you ask me about Kashmir, I have a non conventional opinion about it. I don't think the wounds of Kashmir can be healed even if India and Pakistan start a constructive dialogue from now on. Provide independence, merge it with India or Pakistan. The current status is meaning less but is the meta stable state where peace can still thrive.

Both India and Pakistan have lost precious time in progressing on areas more important than military. I will accept that India lost half a dozen opportunities to win back Kashmir and the hearts of Kashmiris and Pakistan is not any different. Pakistan has 1/3 of Kashmir and it is not a fraction you can be proud of.

If India is not poked time and again about the Kashmir issue, it will merrily continue working on making Indian side of Kashmir peaceful.

Pakistan can take full credit for having 1/3rd of it but does that make the East Pakistan defeat even? May be not. But if you think so ...
:cheers:
Well Peace will never be one sided.The type of peace you people want is that Pakistan submits to all your desires and idea and then there is peace.Forget it.So long as the peace is not in our interest it won't happen.
 
Everything has a time and that time will also come.

:rofl: :rofl: Time will tell what India can and can't do if the provocation continues.

Tell me something : US is attacking a sovereign country's territory in the name of war on terror and you have 100 times civilian casualty than terrorists and you are unable to do anything.

We have to show pity on the state of affairs and not make it worst. Don't worry about Indian response. It will come when we know we will win.
:cheers:
You can prepare all you want.Yeah the time will come thats why you are begging usa to take out our nukes and USA our officials admit that they've given them consent to attacks and we did not even have control over Waziristan so tactical support was given by us for drone attacks but as soon as the area is under full soverign control of GOP it will end.Do you see drone attacks in any area where Pakistan Goverment has full writ?
 
Do not do phada on this thread, the question here is why was General Malik removed and replaced with drunken master Yahya Khan.

I have also heard the US told Ayub that territories cannot alter much because otherwise it would do something that would affect Pakistan adversely, that is why Musa told everyone to hold back.

One suggestion to India, do not befriend US too much, it will only hurt you.
 
Well Peace will never be one sided.The type of peace you people want is that Pakistan submits to all your desires and idea and then there is peace.Forget it.So long as the peace is not in our interest it won't happen.

Yes very true. Peace is never one-sided. If it is one sided, it is just the silence before the storm.

Indian desires :

1. Afghanistan should not be Taliban-ised all over again.
2. India and Pakistan share water based on agreements already in place.
3. Pakistan does not let its state or non state actors to cause harm to Indian interests.
4. Stop support to cross border terror.

Pakistan desires :

1. Resolving core issue of Kashmir
2. Water dispute : Balochistan ?
3. No role for India in Afghanistan


If India and Pakistan has to move forward, rest assured that if Pakistan thinks we should start with Kashmir, we wont have an end.

:cheers:
 
Do not do phada on this thread, the question here is why was General Malik removed and replaced with drunken master Yahya Khan.

I have also heard the US told Ayub that territories cannot alter much because otherwise it would do something that would affect Pakistan adversely, that is why Musa told everyone to hold back.

One suggestion to India, do not befriend US too much, it will only hurt you.

Thanks for the advice bro ...
:smitten:

Sing is King ...
:cheers:
 
Yes very true. Peace is never one-sided. If it is one sided, it is just the silence before the storm.

Indian desires :

1. Afghanistan should not be Taliban-ised all over again.
2. India and Pakistan share water based on agreements already in place.
3. Pakistan does not let its state or non state actors to cause harm to Indian interests.
4. Stop support to cross border terror.

Pakistan desires :

1. Resolving core issue of Kashmir
2. Water dispute : Balochistan ?
3. No role for India in Afghanistan


If India and Pakistan has to move forward, rest assured that if Pakistan thinks we should start with Kashmir, we wont have an end.

:cheers:
Well for once i agree with you.
Pakistan i think would desire
1. Resolving Kashmir
2. Stop Meddling in Balochistan and largely our internal affairs.
and other small issues.
 
Letter written by General Malik to his brother which explains the incident surrounding the change of command.

Pakistan’s Permanent Military Deputy
Embassy of Pakistan
Ankara
23-11-67

My Dear brother,

I hope you and the family are very well. Thank you for your letter of 14 Oct. 67. The answers to your questions are as follows:

a. The de facto command changed the very first day of the ops [operations] after the fall of Chamb when Azmat Hayat broke off wireless communications with me. I personally tried to find his HQ [headquarters] by chopper and failed. In late afternoon I sent Gulzar and Vahid, my MP [military police] officers, to try and locate him, but they too failed. The next day I tore into him and he sheepishly and nervously informed me that he was ‘Yahya’s brigadier’. I had no doubt left that Yahya had reached him the previous day and instructed him not to take further orders from me, while the formal change in command had yet to take place. This was a betrayal of many dimensions.

b. I reasoned and then pleaded with Yahya that if it was credit he was looking for, he should take the overall command but let me go up to Akhnur as his subordinate, but he refused. He went a step further and even changed the plan. He kept banging his head against Troti, letting the Indian fall back to Akhnur. We lost the initiative on the very first day of the war and never recovered it. Eventually it was the desperate stand at Chawinda that prevented the Indians from cutting through.

c. At no time was I assigned any reason for being removed from command by Ayub, Musa or Yahya. They were all sheepish at best. I think the reasons will be given when I am no more.

d. Not informing pro-Pak Kashmiri elements before launching Gibraltar was a command decision and it was mine. The aim of the op was to de freeze the Kashmir issue, raise it from its moribund state, and bring it to the notice of the world. To achieve this aim the first phase of the op was vital, that is, to effect undetected infiltration of thousands across the CFL [cease-fire line]. I was not willing to compromise this in any event. And the whole op could be made stillborn by just one double agent.

e. Haji Pir [Pass] did not cause me much anxiety. Because [the] impending Grand Slam Indian concentration in Haji Pir could only help us after Akhnur, and they would have to pull out troops from there to counter the new threats and surrender their gains, and maybe more, in the process. Actually it was only after the fall of Akhnur that we would have encashed the full value of Gibraltar, but that was not to be!

f. Bhutto kept insisting that his sources had assured him that India would not attack if we did not violate the international border. I however was certain that Gibraltar would lead to war and told GHQ so. I needed no op intelligence to come to this conclusion. It was simple common sense. If I got you by the throat, it would be silly for me to expect that you will kiss me for it. Because I was certain that war would follow, my first choice as objective for Grand Slam was Jammu. From there we could have exploited our success either toward Samba or Kashmir proper as the situation demanded. In any case whether it was Jammu or Akhnur, if we had taken the objective, I do not see how the Indians could have attacked Sialkot before clearing out either of these towns.

g. I have given serious consideration to writing a book, but given up the idea. The book would be the truth. And truth and the popular reaction to it would be good for my ego. But in the long run it would be an unpatriotic act. It will destroy the morale of the army, lower its prestige among the people, be banned in Pakistan, and become a textbook for the Indians. I have little doubt that the Indians will never forgive us the slight of 65 and will avenge it at the first opportunity. I am certain they will hit us in E. Pak [East Pakistan] and we will need all we have to save the situation. The first day of Grand Slam will be fateful in many ways. The worst has still to come and we have to prepare for it. The book is therefore out.

I hope this gives you the gist of what you needed to know. And yes, Ayub was fully involved in the enterprise. As a matter of fact it was his idea. And it was he who ordered me to by-pass Musa while Gibraltar etc. was being planned. I was dealing more with him and Sher Bahadur than with the C-in-C. It is tragic that despite having a good military mind, the FM’s [Foreign Minister Z.A. Bhutto’s] heart was prone to give way. The biggest tragedy is that in this instance it gave way before the eruption of a crisis. Or were they already celebrating a final victory!!

In case you need a more exact description of events, I will need war diaries and maps, which you could send me through the diplomatic bag.

Please remember me to all the family.

Yours,
Akhtar Hussain Malik
 
@T-Faz

24.jpg

I only came to know of Maj-General Akhtar Malik when my father told me that a Pakistani Maj-general was about to cut off the logistical supply route of the Indian army and achieve victory but was replaced with drunken bastard Yahya Khan. Yahya allowed the Indian to regroup and they went on to attack Lahore, what a travesty to let such a thing happen.

I only got to know of his name on this forum and learnt that he was creating havoc in Akhnoor by traveling in a helicopter and the Indian army was in disarray but Ayub Khan replaced him with his favorite and the war changed shape. Here are a couple of article's about the incident.

Operation Grand Slam -DAWN Magazine; November 27, 2005





He would have gone on to be the man in charge and gone on to make us so damn proud but what a debacle this was.

Dear Sir,

I think that you are being a little unfair.

First, it is a surprise that such few Pakistanis, you first, UmairP, next, perhaps others who do not say so in so many words, don't seem to know about your great generals; is it because all three were from an unpopular sect?

Second, we all tend to look at Yahya Khan through the lens of 71 and his disgraceful personal behaviour at that time and immediately preceding. As it happens, more than one officer has remarked that as a CO and battlefield commander, Yahya was quite competent. Any search through the records will show that.

Third, this does not affect the incongruity of his replacing General Malik at the time and in the way that you mentioned. I consider this, the battlefield death of Eftikhar Janjua and the tragic death of the Pakistani COAS which led to the appointment of Ayub as three blows by fate against the PA. In contrast, the PAF was always the golden child of fortune.

You should write about Eftikhar Janjua as well. I understand Major Amin is writing up his military career, and the book will appear soon.

Fourth, I am not sure that General Abdul Hasan Malik was the real hero of Chawinda. You might like to look up the records for an alternative view.

I also heard about his bravery but did not know him from name. Thanks for posting this.

@Indian Members: It would be Ok and we won't mind it even a bit if you stay out of a few thread. I mean just for a change. :)

It is sad that you do not know about your own heroes, but you wish to keep out those who know and admire them more than you do, though coming from a nation which these heroes fought in open warfare.

Sad and ironic.

Perhaps the reason why he why he was removed from charge, he would have gone to become the hero of the Muslim world, a man who brought victory to for a poor nation against a larger and stronger foe.

Funny enough, another qadiyani then went on to save Pakistan from the Indian force offensive against Lahore.



Edit: General Abdul Ali Malik was the brother of General Akhtar Malik, sorry just learned that from Wikipedia.

As mentioned earlier, while he was a good and competent officer, there is some room to believe that the true hero was someone else.

Do not do phada on this thread, the question here is why was General Malik removed and replaced with drunken master Yahya Khan.

I have also heard the US told Ayub that territories cannot alter much because otherwise it would do something that would affect Pakistan adversely, that is why Musa told everyone to hold back.

One suggestion to India, do not befriend US too much, it will only hurt you.

Your suggestion about the US advice is bizarre and smacks of the worst conspiracy theories. You should not advance these without citing an authority.

Funny how it is our own that allowed Indians the chance to save themselves, imagine if General Malik had been allowed to stay on and move into Akhnoor, he would have taken Jammu and Kashmir.

Alas it was not meant to be, but rest assured, he have proven that we have the talent and audacity to face a larger stronger foe. We have done this in the past and today with we can still give a bloody nose to anyone who dares to take any misadventure.

I believe you need to look into the circumstances a little carefully.

  1. Grand Slam was planned to choke off Indian forces in Kashmir by cutting their LOC;
  2. The background thinking was that Gibraltar would have sucked in many more Indian troops, their supplies would place a huge burden on the single road available for supply, and cutting this would cut off the supply line;
  3. At the end of the day, a fanciful idea. There would not have been an immediate shortage of stores. The local atmosphere was supportive; procuring local supplies would not have been a hard task.
  4. Finally, the Indian forces in Kashmir had not only beaten off the intruding Special Forces, but had begun to threaten Pakistani rear echelons; the real fear of the fall of Muzaffarabad was there in Pakistani minds. I presume all reading this thread are aware that Akhtar Hussain commanded a single Division, 12th Division, for the whole Kashmir front, and would have had to fight uphill against two Indian Divisions already present and with their tails up;
  5. It is nowhere mentioned why Yahya failed when Akhtar Hussain might have succeeded; is nobody curious to know?
  6. Regarding the talent and audacity to face a larger, stronger foe, this is indeed a strength, but you fail to mention the countervailing capability of destroying your own best talent from within. India has little to do, as this incident shows. There are more examples if you wish. We, on the other hand, do not tie ourselves up in knots, not after 62 and B. M. Kaul.

Perhaps when you stop shooting each other, or sabotaging each other. It seems to me sometimes that your cricket team epitomises your response to any situation that needs teamwork and following a leader faithfully.

Sincerely,
 
Funny how it is our own that allowed Indians the chance to save themselves, imagine if General Malik had been allowed to stay on and move into Akhnoor, he would have taken Jammu and Kashmir.

Alas it was not meant to be, but rest assured, he have proven that we have the talent and audacity to face a larger stronger foe. We have done this in the past and today with we can still give a bloody nose to anyone who dares to take any misadventure.

Nope the more funnier thing is that in one paragraph you are talking of agression and taking out Jammu and Kashmir whereas on the other paragraph you become defensive and say you can defend yourself quite well.

This is what i fail to understand with what little interaction i have had with the Pakistanis.

On the one hand it is said that you guys won the war of 65 because you managed to save your country from the attacking Indians who had reached till Lahore but on the other hand you guys fail to understand that it is such a big oppurtunuty you lost and came to a situation where you had to fight for the survival.

Let me tell you Sir that i am from Akhnoor

And since i know my area really well let me tell you a few things about it.

Jammu region is a mostly plain region ans suitable to tank battles.Whereas Kashmir region is fully mountaineous region and the only link between Kashmir and India is Jammu.

Here is where i would like to add that the plan was really superb.Attack Akhnoor with tanks..win it then Jammu city is the next target which is like 60 kilometeres from Akhnoor.Once you have won Jammu city then you have won 90% of the war as the supplies to Kashmir cant go so the Indian troops they would starve for ammo and food and you can easily take over Kashmir.

Had this plan been successful i guess you could have had Kashmir and i think this was a better plan than Kargil because the chances of succeeding were more here.But you guys messed up big time and it was not there to be.


Now what i see here in my region which is called the chickens neck is no longer the chickens neck but an iron neck which is difficult to cut.Pakistan not only lost the chance but it alerted the Indians of the weak area where it could be attacked.

The Indian Army hence filled the chickens neck with troops and armour and is prepared for any attack here.I see armour and troops everywhere in this region from Akhnoor to Pathankot in Northern Punjab.There would be hundreds and hundreds of tanks and thousand of troops.

So i believe not only is it a chance wasted but a big oppurtunity lost.
 
Nope the more funnier thing is that in one paragraph you are talking of agression and taking out Jammu and Kashmir whereas on the other paragraph you become defensive and say you can defend yourself quite well.

This is what i fail to understand with what little interaction i have had with the Pakistanis.

On the one hand it is said that you guys won the war of 65 because you managed to save your country from the attacking Indians who had reached till Lahore but on the other hand you guys fail to understand that it is such a big oppurtunuty you lost and came to a situation where you had to fight for the survival.

Let me tell you Sir that i am from Akhnoor

And since i know my area really well let me tell you a few things about it.

Jammu region is a mostly plain region ans suitable to tank battles.Whereas Kashmir region is fully mountaineous region and the only link between Kashmir and India is Jammu.

Here is where i would like to add that the plan was really superb.Attack Akhnoor with tanks..win it then Jammu city is the next target which is like 60 kilometeres from Akhnoor.Once you have won Jammu city then you have won 90% of the war as the supplies to Kashmir cant go so the Indian troops they would starve for ammo and food and you can easily take over Kashmir.

Had this plan been successful i guess you could have had Kashmir and i think this was a better plan than Kargil because the chances of succeeding were more here.But you guys messed up big time and it was not there to be.


Now what i see here in my region which is called the chickens neck is no longer the chickens neck but an iron neck which is difficult to cut.Pakistan not only lost the chance but it alerted the Indians of the weak area where it could be attacked.

The Indian Army hence filled the chickens neck with troops and armour and is prepared for any attack here.I see armour and troops everywhere in this region from Akhnoor to Pathankot in Northern Punjab.There would be hundreds and hundreds of tanks and thousand of troops.

So i believe not only is it a chance wasted but a big oppurtunity lost.

This is where things get really bizarre!

Such a thing could never happen EVER AGAIN, right?

Right!

I request you to read about that flawed genius among South Asian military commanders of these later years, Eftekhar Janjua. Please concentrate on his professional and military life. In my humble opinion, he is greater than Malik as a battle leader. Maybe that is unfair to Malik, who never got a chance to implement his own plan, but certainly Eftekhar's leadership was exemplary.

My very firm belief is that Pakistan is doomed to lose against India. The death of Mohammed Akbar Khan in an air crash, which led to the elevation of Ayub Khan (ironic that he finally superseded two generals, the Khan brothers, both of whom were considered more highly than he was, to get to be C-in-C), the battlefield supersession of Malik, the pot shot taken by an Indian jawan at Janjua's helicopter - difficult to imagine Fate leaning so insistently to one side.
 
The Indian Army hence filled the chickens neck with troops and armour and is prepared for any attack here.I see armour and troops everywhere in this region from Akhnoor to Pathankot in Northern Punjab.There would be hundreds and hundreds of tanks and thousand of troops.

So i believe not only is it a chance wasted but a big oppurtunity lost.

A map would be very useful for us, non-natives, to understand.
 
This is where things get really bizarre!

Such a thing could never happen EVER AGAIN, right?

Right!

I request you to read about that flawed genius among South Asian military commanders of these later years, Eftekhar Janjua. Please concentrate on his professional and military life. In my humble opinion, he is greater than Malik as a battle leader. Maybe that is unfair to Malik, who never got a chance to implement his own plan, but certainly Eftekhar's leadership was exemplary.

My very firm belief is that Pakistan is doomed to lose against India. The death of Mohammed Akbar Khan in an air crash, which led to the elevation of Ayub Khan (ironic that he finally superseded two generals, the Khan brothers, both of whom were considered more highly than he was, to get to be C-in-C), the battlefield supersession of Malik, the pot shot taken by an Indian jawan at Janjua's helicopter - difficult to imagine Fate leaning so insistently to one side.

Sir,

I am not much of a fan of this General Malik.My point was that even after making such a brilliant plan on the paper they failed to execute it properly.Overall i think it was a complete waste of time and resources.In my view it would only be stupid to not think of an Indian counter attack and being prepared for it.

The Indian Army was caught by surprise so why let the time go by..didnt the top military leadership have anything to learn from Hitlers attack on the Soviets?

Now my point is that this attack on Akhnoor and then continuing it to capture Jammu city and cutting off Kashmir from India was a superb plan but it should have been the first plan of action.This cant determine the result of the complete war.The Pakistanis should have then asked themselves what would we do if India counter attacks from northern Punjab?..and planned for it.

I think its like a chess game where before making a move you think of all the moves the opponent could make against you which was missing in this case.

General Malik would have lead his men brilliantly and God knows if he would have reached Jammu city or not but if he did would have definitely faced many counter attacks from Northern Punjab and who knows if India would have opened the eastern front after seeing an Indian city being captured?So this plan was not a formula for victory in my eyes...it was just a good plan executed without proper thinking.




Regarding your question on whether it could happen again..I would say never never again Sir.There are brigades and brigades of the Armoured corps everywhere here.My school was close to such a brigade and seeing T 72,70s and bmps were a treat to watch.I visit the border many times and its filled with troops arty guns,tanks etc... and the locals are very supportive too..there is a soldiers temple here where they pray for the well being of IA jawans...so seeing all these things first hand i would say it is no longer a chickens neck and this place would be very very difficult to win in a war.

We are Indians..we dont make the same mistake 2 times! :lol::lol:
 
A map would be very useful for us, non-natives, to understand.


In this map the area between Jammu and Amritsar is called the chickens neck and the national highway 1A passes from here only which is the only road which connects Kashmir to India.

map-northindia.jpg
 

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